User Manual for Logos4

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Posts 692
Otto S. Carroll | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2009 9:31 AM

Jeremiah Daniel Morris:

 

...If this were the case, I'd gladly purchace the manuals (even at an extra cost).

Same here!

__________

15" rMBP 2.6 GHz i7 | 16 GB RAM | 1.0 TB Flash Drive | OS X 10.12.3 | Logos 7.0 (7.3.0.0062)

Posts 2590
Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2009 9:39 AM

I would also purchase them if they were a L4 resouce.

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2009 10:03 AM

Doug.Mertens@verizon.net:
Seems kind of ironic to me that the books on how to get the most out of the L4 resources aren't available as an L4 resource.

Logos has stated in the past, when asked to add a spell checker, that

"Logos has not wanted to build all the functions of a word processor, of which there are many good ones, into the Notes function."

So I'm just assuming that the response would be the same for the Manuals:

"Logos has not wanted to build all the functions of printed book, of which there are many good ones"

Just a guess Big Smile

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 350
Chuck P. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2009 10:03 AM

I don't understand being part of Logos or not....MP is part of Logos, he may have his own business, but he is tied to Logos...the following is on my homepage which Logos would not allow him saying unless they certified him:   "Today's post is from Morris Proctor, certified and authorized trainer for Logos Bible Software. Morris has trained thousands of Logos users at his two-day Camp Logos training seminars.".

Chuck

Laptop: Lenovo P580 - 15.6" IdeaPad Laptop
 - 6GB Memory - 750GB Hard Drive - Windows 7
 Iphone5s            Logos 7, Bronze

Posts 2254
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2009 10:11 AM

Paul Golder:

Logos has stated in the past, when asked to add a spell checker, that

"Logos has not wanted to build all the functions of a word processor, of which there are many good ones, into the Notes function."

So I'm just assuming that the response would be the same for the Manuals:

"Logos has not wanted to build all the functions of printed book, of which there are many good ones"

Well, this probably would not be their response because spell checker is a function in a Word Processor.  A manual is a resource, a book.  Some resources in L4 are very strange.  A manual would not be strange.

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2009 10:22 AM

MarkSwaim:

Paul Golder:

Logos has stated in the past, when asked to add a spell checker, that

"Logos has not wanted to build all the functions of a word processor, of which there are many good ones, into the Notes function."

So I'm just assuming that the response would be the same for the Manuals:

"Logos has not wanted to build all the functions of printed book, of which there are many good ones"

Well, this probably would not be their response because spell checker is a function in a Word Processor.  A manual is a resource, a book.  Some resources in L4 are very strange.  A manual would not be strange.

It was just my attempt at sarcastic humor. ( apparently a very poor attempt though )

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 2254
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2009 10:40 AM

Paul Golder:
It was just my attempt at sarcastic humor. ( apparently a very poor attempt though )

My bad.  Should have figured that out.  Seriously, there must be a reason behind not offering the manuals as a resource.  The only possible reason I could think of is financial, something to do with the seminars offered.  It would be nice if someone could respond, and if no one responds, lets hope it is because there are behind the scenes discussions going on about offering the manuals as a resource.

Posts 19577
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2009 2:39 PM

MarkSwaim:

Seriously, there must be a reason behind not offering the manuals as a resource.

One possible reason would be the Catch-22 for users who don't know how to use the Logos Library to open resources yet. How can you read the manual to learn how to do that if you've got to know how to use the software to read the manual? Having it as a separate digital (PDF) file does make sense, though.

Logos is a company that was started by programmers and they've outsourced the writing of their user's guides from the very beginning. The early ones (for 1.6 and prior) were pretty lame, as I recall, as was the online help. It just wasn't a priority for them, nor perhaps something they were particularly good at writing. Then along came Morris Proctor with his great seminars, and manuals, and I guess that took the pressure of the Logos folks to do much of anything about tutorials or detailed manuals that shipped with the program. Just the minimal Help file and that was it.

I used to work for Microsoft and we had a whole User Education team for each product that was nearly as big as the development team. They did the print-based user's guides as well as the online Help and CBT (computer based training -- interactive tutorials kind of like what that other guy whose name I've forgotten -- former Logos employee -- sells, which someone was advertising here on the forum recently). It was a hard job for the UE folks, because we kept changing the UI out from under them just as soon as they'd understood it and documented it well. No doubt it was very frustrating for them to get the training materials perfected in time to ship with the product. Also, it was a big investment cost-wise having so many people working on those things, something that only a big company like Microsoft could afford. But even they have begun to skimp on manuals and CBT because there's such a huge aftermarket of Microsoft Support websites and training videos now (e.g., lynda.com, and the whole Microsoft MVP program -- which the Logos Forum MVP's seem to be kind of modeled after) that they can rely on. Logos has a committed user base that are willing to make these great videos and develop the wiki and staff this Forum for nothing, so what would be their motivation to do a better manual? If we all went on strike, then maybe they would... But we're hooked. And they know it! Wink

Note: I'm not saying I wouldn't wish for a better manual from Logos. Of course I do. But I do sincerely understand why they don't do it.

Posts 2254
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2009 6:40 PM

Rosie Perera:
One possible reason would be the Catch-22 for users who don't know how to use the Logos Library to open resources yet. How can you read the manual to learn how to do that if you've got to know how to use the software to read the manual? Having it as a separate digital (PDF) file does make sense, though.

Well, I have no problem with manuals being offered in pdf format.  But to offer it as a resource is possible despite your catch 22 thinking.  The ones calling for a manual are users already of L4.  So they would know how to access it.  Secondly, a small one page pdf or documentation can be made available pointing new users to free video tutorials which will get them started.  One video tutorial can even be named, "finding the resource manual in L4".  Problem solved.

 

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2009 7:28 PM

Are these manuals included in the price of a MP Seminar?

 

Posts 4
Gavin Robertson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 1:02 PM

I understand why they don't produce a manual as well - its costly and time consuming - but they should produce something to help get people started with the basics.  I'm feeling like a bit of a bonehead at the moment.  I finally found some time to do some snooping around the wiki and found "Hints & Tips" which (among other things) showed me how to move from the home page back to my work area.  This has been a huge frustration for me - I'd click on the home button and couldn't get back to where I was without going back to layouts and restarting my session.  It never occured to me to press the home button again (maybe it should have). But that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.  I don't need a 500 page manual (though I agree that to have a manual as a Logos 4 resource would be a great idea) but as a minimum, there should be a short-sheet containing commands, search syntax, shortcuts, keystrokes etc. needed to move around and use the software. Other software I have purchased provide this kind of resource! Powerful software isn't powerful if users don't know how to use it - a reference card (pdf or otherwise) with such basic information would be very helpful - and for me, would have alleviated a huge amount of frustration. 

Posts 19577
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 7:51 PM

GavinRobertson:

I understand why they don't produce a manual as well - its costly and time consuming - but they should produce something to help get people started with the basics.  I'm feeling like a bit of a bonehead at the moment.  I finally found some time to do some snooping around the wiki and found "Hints & Tips" which (among other things) showed me how to move from the home page back to my work area.  This has been a huge frustration for me - I'd click on the home button and couldn't get back to where I was without going back to layouts and restarting my session.  It never occured to me to press the home button again (maybe it should have). But that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.  I don't need a 500 page manual (though I agree that to have a manual as a Logos 4 resource would be a great idea) but as a minimum, there should be a short-sheet containing commands, search syntax, shortcuts, keystrokes etc. needed to move around and use the software. Other software I have purchased provide this kind of resource! Powerful software isn't powerful if users don't know how to use it - a reference card (pdf or otherwise) with such basic information would be very helpful - and for me, would have alleviated a huge amount of frustration. 

Agreed! This basic navigation info should be explained in a Getting Started guide that should be provided free for everyone. I too found it unintuitive to click the Home Page icon to get away from the home page (reminisciences of the ridicule Microsoft got for having people click the Start button to find where to down their computer -- definitely not obvious). I did discover the Customize menu (at the lower left of the Home Page) early on, and I turned off the Home Page so it never comes up for me when I start up. But having a feature that people want to get rid of right away because it's so frustrating is somewhat problematic.

Posts 2254
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 8:36 PM

GavinRobertson:
I understand why they don't produce a manual as well - its costly and time consuming

Gavin, I understand why you would say this, but I think this kind of thinking is not correct. Consider the following:

1.  Logos already has the manuals....two of them.  Morris Proctor wrote them.  Therefore it would not be costly to produce because they have already been produced.

2.  Since they have already been produced, it would also not be time consuming.  The work is already done.

3.  But while point 1 and 2 should be sufficient, I want to add that any resource developed in Logos is costly and time consuming.  So one idea would be to put out a resource called manuals on the prepub page.  Immediately we all will learn that there is no interest or there is an interest.  If the interest is there, it would be worth the cost and time to produce since there would be a payback in sale of the resource.  But again, the resource has already been produced.  So cost and time are no longer factors.

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 8:48 PM

MarkSwaim:

So one idea would be to put out a resource called manuals on the prepub page.  Immediately we all will learn that there is no interest or there is an interest.  If the interest is there, it would be worth the cost and time to produce since there would be a payback in sale of the resource.  But again, the resource has already been produced.  So cost and time are no longer factors.

Or better still . . . Community Pricing.

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 9:08 PM

I'd be happy if the Help file had a lot more meat in it and I could print all/part of it.

Posts 19577
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2010 11:50 PM

MikeM:

I'd be happy if the Help file had a lot more meat in it and I could print all/part of it.

You can print it all:

  1. Open it
  2. Go into Reading Mode (F11)
  3. Grab a screen capture (Ctrl+PrintScreen)
  4. Paste into your graphics program of choice that has print capability (MS Paint will do)
  5. Print
  6. Switch back to Logos Help (still in Reading Mode) and hit Page Down
  7. Repeat steps 3-5 for as many pages as it takes to get through the whole help file (on my large screen it's 23 pages)

Still not very meaty, but at least it's something you can read while you're on the toilet now... Smile 

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 2 2010 12:12 AM

Rosie Perera:

You can print it all:

  1. Open it
  2. Go into Reading Mode (F11)
  3. Grab a screen capture (Ctrl+PrintScreen)
  4. Paste into your graphics program of choice that has print capability (MS Paint will do)
  5. Print
  6. Switch back to Logos Help (still in Reading Mode) and hit Page Down
  7. Repeat steps 3-5 for as many pages as it takes to get through the whole help file (on my large screen it's 23 pages)

Still not very meaty, but at least it's something you can read while you're on the toilet now... Smile 

But that's no fun!  It's much more fun to locate a networked printer that someone has parked directly on the internet and print to ~that~. Smile

I tried your tip with printing from the screen captures and went through 5 reams of paper and a toner cartridge printing out the BHS.  Now I have to trim off all of these scroll bars and stuff and tape them together. But "thanks".

BTW, don't your arms get tired holding up that camera all of the time?  And just so you know, I can use the laptop in the bathroom just fine.  In fact, I ~might~ be doing it even now.

Big Smile

 

Posts 19577
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 2 2010 1:22 AM

MikeM:

But that's no fun!  It's much more fun to locate a networked printer that someone has parked directly on the internet and print to ~that~. Smile

Hee hee! :-)

MikeM:

I tried your tip with printing from the screen captures and went through 5 reams of paper and a toner cartridge printing out the BHS.  Now I have to trim off all of these scroll bars and stuff and tape them together. But "thanks".

I was referring to the Help file. Everything else is copyrighted material and you shouldn't print it for any reason. That's why there is no print feature in Logos.Smile

MikeM:

BTW, don't your arms get tired holding up that camera all of the time?  And just so you know, I can use the laptop in the bathroom just fine.  In fact, I ~might~ be doing it even now.

Nope, I've got strong muscles. In fact, I ~might~ be taking your picture while you're sitting in the bathroom right now. Wink

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 2 2010 3:25 AM

Rosie Perera:

MikeM:

BTW, don't your arms get tired holding up that camera all of the time?  And just so you know, I can use the laptop in the bathroom just fine.  In fact, I ~might~ be doing it even now.

Nope, I've got strong muscles. In fact, I ~might~ be taking your picture while you're sitting in the bathroom right now. Wink

C'mon.  I have a feeling that you only lift up that camera when I'm looking.  You CAN'T POSSIBLY be holding it up all the time!  That's just crazy!

 

Hmm

 

Posts 19577
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 2 2010 5:08 AM

MikeM:

I have a feeling that you only lift up that camera when I'm looking.  You CAN'T POSSIBLY be holding it up all the time!  That's just crazy!

Nope, I've got proof that I hold it up at other times too. In fact, Richard DeRuiter noticed that I hold it up whenever he's looking:
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/6900/53662.aspx#53662

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