Bookstore - Initial Reaction
After looking at it briefly it seems to be something I would likely keep turned off. I understand why the sales and marketing folks like the feature, but I would speculate most users will not find much use for it. I might be wrong. I hope not too much time and resources have been invested in this feature when there are so many other things that need to be worked on.
Comments
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It must only be useful for users with small libraries.
I get "No Results" in the Bookstore section in the Passage Guide and Exegetical Guide. And I get a bunch of Spanish resources recommended in the Topic guide. Hmmm. No thanks.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Fredc said:
After looking at it briefly it seems to be something I would likely keep turned off. I understand why the sales and marketing folks like the feature, but I would speculate most users will not find much use for it.
Hi Fredc, You have piqued my interest. I am not a beta tester. Can you summarize, in a nutshell, what the "bookstore" feature is? Thanks.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Todd Phillips said:
I get "No Results" in the Bookstore section in the Passage Guide and Exegetical Guide. And I get a bunch of Spanish resources recommended in the Topic guide. Hmmm. No thanks.
Both of these known issues were covered in the release notes (http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_5.2b_Beta_3#Known_Issues) which were called out in the announcement post (http://community.logos.com/forums/t/86004.aspx).
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Fredc said:
After looking at it briefly it seems to be something I would likely keep turned off.
Can you explain why?
Fredc said:I would speculate most users will not find much use for it.
Many users want to compile lists of logosres links so they can see the previews, etc. (see http://community.logos.com/forums/t/85104.aspx and several other forum threads); the "Preview" feature in Bookstore makes this available with fewer clicks.
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Can you give some examples of searches? I've mostly been looking at the TG: jesus christ, love, trinity, prayer, mary, virgin. I get mostly dictionaries, usually with no More. In SG I get mostly Illustrations. Are these tied to only certain Types?
I realize it requires a different sort of index search on your end, but will this appear in Search? Seems a place where it could potentially be the most useful.
Very interested in this idea. My comments may be premature as I just started playing with it, but a little nudge in the right direction would help.
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I hope that when the bookstore eventually goes live for all there will be some videos and whatnot posted on how to make the most of it.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Todd Phillips said:
I get "No Results" in the Bookstore section in the Passage Guide and Exegetical Guide. And I get a bunch of Spanish resources recommended in the Topic guide. Hmmm. No thanks.
Both of these known issues were covered in the release notes (http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_5.2b_Beta_3#Known_Issues) which were called out in the announcement post (http://community.logos.com/forums/t/86004.aspx).
Sorry, I didn't read the known issues as I thought it was a just lack of possible recommendations. I assumed that it was testable, but as it sits now, I'm not sure what to test in this feature. Will you be advising us when the backend search has improved? Or will that require a newer release?
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Super.Tramp said:
Can you summarize, in a nutshell, what the "bookstore" feature is? Thanks.
It's a new Guide section that recommends books related to your search that you can buy:
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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While it isn't the next priority in my personal list, I can see this section having the potential to be useful - or a nuisance depending on how well targeted the results are. My first tries got no hits, I finally got hits but primarily books of illustrations, my final attempt got me nothing but Bible dictionaries. I would expect more bible study and commentary hits .... and suspect others would expect more theology.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Using Jesus:death got no tab for bookstore from Sermon Starter Guide.
Using salvation got no tab for bookstore from Sermon Starter Guide.
Same problem with the word Daniel.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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The bookstore tab is not working for me in Topic Guide either.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Fredc said:
After looking at it briefly
I decided I would withhold comment until I could see more than one English resource. Tried several topics, and every suggested title except one was Spanish, which I cannot read.
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This will support the books WITHIN collections too? I doubt...0
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This is potentially a useful feature, but probably needs a little more development. As far as I can tell, in the topic guide it is effectively listing dictionaries that you don't own, but that have an entry for that topic. That is useful information to know, and if I started seeing the same dictionary appear in several topic searches, I obviously might consider purchasing it.
However:
- The big thing that is lacking is a preview of that particular topic. Without that, I'm far less likely to make a purchase. I know that I can preview the resource as a whole (which is helpful), but a preview of the topic would be much more powerful in persuading me to buy.
- However, just seeing the first paragraph on the article still won't be entirely helpful, because it doesn't give me a sense of how detailed the article might be. That's an important buying factor. Just look at the number of threads here of people asking to post comparisons between various Bible dictionaries.
Therefore what I would like to see is the preview button displaying the entire article (Biblia-style) in an embedded browser, obviously with a limit on the number of articles you can look at from any resource (perhaps 5?). A counter could display so that it said "Preview this article (4 left)" or whatever. Or you could limit it to 1 preview every two months, or something.
Of course, this method would need a bit of tweaking for the Passage Guide (or at least a maximum limit). You wouldn't want someone doing a passage guide for the whole Bible and 'previewing' the commentary.
Whatever you do, I think there should be a little help icon which explains exactly why the resources have been chosen, so that people aren't left to guess why Logos is suggesting them.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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I forgot that I had to work offline since the servers were down.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Add to Wishlist would be nice.
EDIT: Even if only to the default list.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Fredc said:
After looking at it briefly it seems to be something I would likely keep turned off.
Can you explain why?
I see this feature as being the equivalent of the "you might also like" or "customers also bought" banner adds on a shopping site. Aside from the fact that when I sit down to read and study I am not interested in shopping at the same time, when I do shop I know what I am looking for and buy that particular item; I don't browse to see what I "might also like".
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
Fredc said:I would speculate most users will not find much use for it.
Many users want to compile lists of logosres links so they can see the previews, etc. (see http://community.logos.com/forums/t/85104.aspx and several other forum threads); the "Preview" feature in Bookstore makes this available with fewer clicks.
Based on some of the comments in this thread it is apparent that some users may find value in the feature. If I am in the minority that's fine, but it does not change my opinion regarding its usefulness for me.
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I like Mark's idea. If it comes across as a hard sale approach or I can't even study my bible without Logos trying to sell me something, forget it!
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Mark Barnes said:
Therefore what I would like to see is the preview button displaying the entire article (Biblia-style) in an embedded browser
[Y] [Along with the rest of that statement.]
And yes, a way to turn it off and on. Are we researching this weeks talk? [get out of my way - thank you] or just looking [and if we can not see the entire article why buy as I have 50 resources on that topic now ?]
If you are researching Jesus you might get as many as all of the other 40,000 resources as possible others you might like / want.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Fredc said:
After looking at it briefly it seems to be something I would likely keep turned off.
Can you explain why?
I don't do Beta any more, but if it ever makes SR, I'll definitely keep it turned off. I wouldn't want to lose focus on the task I was undertaking in Logos. When I'm doing sermon preparation that's my focus. If I'm going shopping in Logos then that's my focus.
I don't multi-task!
Every blessing
Alan
iMac Retina 5K, 27": 3.6GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.15.5; 1TB SSD; Logos 8
MacBook Air 13.3": 1.8GHz; 4GB RAM; MacOS 10.13.6; 256GB SSD; Logos 8
iPad Pro 32GB WiFi iOS 13.5.1
iPhone 8+ 64GB iOS 13.5.1
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David Ames said:
And yes, a way to turn it off and on.
You can turn it off now by creating a custom guide template without that section included.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:David Ames said:
And yes, a way to turn it off and on.
You can turn it off now by creating a custom guide template without that section included.
Plus, it's not automatically inserted into existing custom guides. So if you are already using only customized guides then you may never see it.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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It should be turned off by default.
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I do ALL my shopping with 'Customers also bought' on Apple's iTunes. I'm not sure why the algorythm on iTunes gets me what I'm looking for. Same for Amazon, where I don't quite hit the title that pleases.
But I shop when I'm shopping. Logos.com's 'you might like' is abysmal ... unrelated, often never changes, and quite clearly forced.
Since I don't use the guides, I keep Logos off the internet, and by principle I don't commercialize Bible study, then Logos.com is the criticality.
Why don't they fix Logos.com first? It's too obvious. It's where the customer normally shops.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I like it. Yes, as stated in the release notes, it's a work in progress, so I am looking forward to see the results of that progress. I have a large Logos library, but it's nice to quickly check to see what else is available when I'm studying or preparing to teach on a topic or passage, in case there's something available that would be helpful beyond what I already have. To see a list and preview the resources right in Logos is sweet.
Thank you, Logos.
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This feature is useful when looking for resources on a subject that are not in the library. The feature must ALWAYS have the option to be disabled if desired.
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Lynden Williams said:
The bookstore tab is not working for me in Topic Guide either.
Try Redemption before coming to that conclusion - I was just about to give up also ....tried redemption and then was able to find a pattern of likely candidates that generally worked.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mark Barnes said:
The big thing that is lacking is a preview of that particular topic.
I agree with Mark although I might tweak the details a bit.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Jesse Blevins said:
If it comes across as a hard sale approach or I can't even study my bible without Logos trying to sell me something, forget it!
It shouldn't come across that way because you can avoid it by:
- deleting the section from My Guide
- leaving the section closed
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Alan Macgregor said:
I wouldn't want to lose focus on the task I was undertaking in Logos.
I see it more as a tool to see if I have enough material on topic X to do task Y. Currently when my answer is "no" I go to logos.com and get annoyed at the weaknesses of the search. This would either get me interesting results faster or get me annoyed without the extra step of going to the browser.[8-|]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Fredc said:Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Fredc said:
After looking at it briefly it seems to be something I would likely keep turned off.
Can you explain why?
I see this feature as being the equivalent of the "you might also like" or "customers also bought" banner adds on a shopping site. Aside from the fact that when I sit down to read and study I am not interested in shopping at the same time, when I do shop I know what I am looking for and buy that particular item; I don't browse to see what I "might also like".
I too do not want to see this.
Fredc said:Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
Fredc said:I would speculate most users will not find much use for it.
Many users want to compile lists of logosres links so they can see the previews, etc. (see http://community.logos.com/forums/t/85104.aspx and several other forum threads); the "Preview" feature in Bookstore makes this available with fewer clicks.
Based on some of the comments in this thread it is apparent that some users may find value in the feature. If I am in the minority that's fine, but it does not change my opinion regarding its usefulness for me.
Same here. While some users would like this, I see this as more of a marketing tool for Logos. And this is something I do not like in software.
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Fortunately, Bookstore can be excluded if you have (or create) a custom template for your Guides.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Todd Phillips said:Super.Tramp said:
Can you summarize, in a nutshell, what the "bookstore" feature is? Thanks.
It's a new Guide section that recommends books related to your search that you can buy:
For me, this feature is nice and welcome, but requires some additional work. Given that Logos.com was unavailable (or somewhat flickering) for me for the most part of time since I installed the new beta, I'm not sure exactly which of my issues are due to stability issues. I offer my screenshot:
- The bookstore offers "8 results", shows 5 and no "more..." button. This may be the known issue from the release note. (Expanding on this while the forum is down: A new guide on Justification brought 11 results with the same top five. It had a more button, which vanished after being clicked. Sounds like the known bug)
- When there is no internet connection to the Logos server, it claims "no results" which is a big No No. "no results" means "there ain't any", not "I couldn't make it there to check". Like the Reading List (which is a browser feature, too) I'd expect "No internet connection" as the result in this case. Moreover, since guides are saved, it seems to me that "no results" persists even when a connection becomes available - this is not good.
- I found that the results I can see seem to be consistent with Todd's (I assume he owns the three English language ones in my screenshot, I own "Where to find it" from his. I don't own the two Spanish language ones down Todd's results and expect another one down the line to make them 8).
My results don't change whether I am running Verbum = Yes or No. Expanding: the top five are the same for Justification and Redemption - possibly just those from a range of LCV-encyclopedias that carry the headword.
- The links for the resource page and cart go to Logos.com regardless whether I run Verbum = Yes or No. This is consistent with former Preview. I personally am fine with that, but since Verbum.com now has a bookshop shielded from Logos I think they should go there in Verbum mode - maybe it works different for Verbum installer version?
- Running this guide takes several minutes on my machine. This may be an isolated issue with my machine (retrieving the homepage takes over half an hour for me, always) or due to connectivity, but I don't like it. Set it a reasonable threshold and let it die if it doesn't work by then.
- I never get cover pictures. This may be part of the connectivity thing (maybe it just times out on retrieving them) but I'd like to see them. Seems to happen even when a connection to the page on Logos.com is possible through Chrome.
- Preview is nice and I like the short description and even the Add to Cart button. This could become the new preview for all non-licenced resources. However, it is slow - slower than pulling a "old style"-preview from a locked entry on a Reading List.
- Add to cart actually works - it took multiple tries for me to see it. Most often it didn't do anything and I was convinced it was broken (that's why I switched from Verbum = Yes to No) Even when it works, it is much too slow. Again, this is maybe related to connectivity issues - but I expect a system reaction within say three seconds- either the browser window with the cart opens, or an error message or at least something like "trying to connect..."
- The bookstore doesn't calculate currency conversion like the webpage does (and preview shows). This is an absolute no-go. It may be that the guide somehow caches an old price in Euro (at least the new run for Justification brings the TBD at €19.80).
Have joy in the Lord!
0 - The bookstore offers "8 results", shows 5 and no "more..." button. This may be the known issue from the release note. (Expanding on this while the forum is down: A new guide on Justification brought 11 results with the same top five. It had a more button, which vanished after being clicked. Sounds like the known bug)
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Mick,
Quick question. I reported this to tech support yesterday since I've had trouble accessing Logos.com and they are looking into it. On any computer on my home network, if I run Logos, Open a Preview window (by any means: a link to an unowned resource or through the Preview button in the store), I loose connection to Logos.com through any browser and through the Logos application for about 1 hour. I've repeated this through various scenarios 8 times with the same result. I can initiate it through any computer on the network and all computers are blocked from connecting to Logos.com. Resetting computers and modem/router has no effect.
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Randy W. Sims said:
Mick,
Quick question. I reported this to tech support yesterday since I've had trouble accessing Logos.com and they are looking into it. On any computer on my home network, if I run Logos, Open a Preview window (by any means: a link to an unowned resource or through the Preview button in the store), I loose connection to Logos.com through any browser and through the Logos application for about 1 hour. I've repeated this through various scenarios 8 times with the same result. I can initiate it through any computer on the network and all computers are blocked from connecting to Logos.com. Resetting computers and modem/router has no effect.
Maybe I'm seeing the same. At least I couldn't connect to Logos.com (including Faithlife, Verbum etc in differing levels) since the last beta. So this is not a server crash/repair thing?
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:Randy W. Sims said:
Mick,
Quick question. I reported this to tech support yesterday since I've had trouble accessing Logos.com and they are looking into it. On any computer on my home network, if I run Logos, Open a Preview window (by any means: a link to an unowned resource or through the Preview button in the store), I loose connection to Logos.com through any browser and through the Logos application for about 1 hour. I've repeated this through various scenarios 8 times with the same result. I can initiate it through any computer on the network and all computers are blocked from connecting to Logos.com. Resetting computers and modem/router has no effect.
Maybe I'm seeing the same. At least I couldn't connect to Logos.com (including Faithlife, Verbum etc in differing levels) since the last beta. So this is not a server crash/repair thing?
That's what I thought at first, but then I noticed when I was able to connect again that other forum posts were made during the time that I thought the server was down. That was the first thing I asked tech support, if the forums or Logos.com had been down, and they said it had not been down. I was going to test it today on a public network to see if it's just my network having problems, but now it looks like it maybe happening to others too.
EDIT: And it does break connection to all Logos servers. That's something they had me test. No connection to Logos, Faithlife, Verbum, etc.
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[N] I agree, unless it localizes every single sale book so they do not appear on my homepage at all.
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Randy W. Sims said:
That's what I thought at first, but then I noticed when I was able to connect again that other forum posts were made during the time that I thought the server was down. That was the first thing I asked tech support, if the forums or Logos.com had been down, and they said it had not been down. I was going to test it today on a public network to see if it's just my network having problems, but now it looks like it maybe happening to others too.
EDIT: And it does break connection to all Logos servers. That's something they had me test. No connection to Logos, Faithlife, Verbum, etc.
That's weird. Are you overseas (as seen from Bellingham)? I remember Lynden posting something that he was required to run L5 offline and thought this belonged to the same issue I saw. On the other hand, many months bachk there was a partial outage at one of Amazon's data centers and some users could access Logos and others couldn't.
Have joy in the Lord!
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Mark Barnes said:
Therefore what I would like to see is the preview button displaying the entire article (Biblia-style) in an embedded browser, obviously with a limit on the number of articles you can look at from any resource (perhaps 5?). A counter could display so that it said "Preview this article (4 left)" or whatever. Or you could limit it to 1 preview every two months, or something.
I think this is a really good - and important - suggestion.
Earlier this morning I was running a Topic Guide against "Unknown God" and the bookstore returned five results
In my case, the "Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible" has been on my wishlist for a long time and being able to see the specific article which caused it to appear here would be helpful
Mark Barnes said:Whatever you do, I think there should be a little help icon which explains exactly why the resources have been chosen, so that people aren't left to guess why Logos is suggesting them.
Agreed[Y]
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Graham Criddle said:
Earlier this morning I was running a Topic Guide against "Unknown God" and the bookstore returned five results
I got only two (seems I own the other resources on your list) but this time the guide finished within one minute! Still no cover pictures, though.
(OT and I saw you get 12% on DDD - academic discount? - wheras I'm offered 4, bookstore guide consistent to webpage)
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:
That's weird. Are you overseas (as seen from Bellingham)? I remember Lynden posting something that he was required to run L5 offline and thought this belonged to the same issue I saw. On the other hand, many months bachk there was a partial outage at one of Amazon's data centers and some users could access Logos and others couldn't.
Atlanta, Georgia (US). This is isn't a server down issue. It's definitely triggered on my end; I've tried enough scenarios and at random times to prove it is triggered on my end by the Preview. It doesn't break my connection to other sites only Logos. It's not a server between here and Bellingham or at least I get the same traceroute when the connection is down and when it's up. I don't know enough about networks to have a clue about what is happening, but it's almost like I'm put in a 1 hour penalty box every time I Preview a resource.
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Randy W. Sims said:
if I run Logos, Open a Preview window (by any means: a link to an unowned resource or through the Preview button in the store), I loose connection to Logos.com through any browser and through the Logos application for about 1 hour.
I just checked for a normal old RL Preview and still have accces. Now I'll check from the new bookstore preview (so if I'm silent in the next hour, I have the same condition).
Have joy in the Lord!
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Randy W. Sims said:
it's almost like I'm put in a 1 hour penalty box every time I Preview a resource
This is very helpful information, and I think it should be enough for our network engineers to diagnose and fix the problem; I've passed a report along.
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Randy W. Sims said:
Atlanta, Georgia (US). This is isn't a server down issue. It's definitely triggered on my end; I've tried enough scenarios and at random times to prove it is triggered on my end by the Preview. It doesn't break my connection to other sites only Logos. It's not a server between here and Bellingham or at least I get the same traceroute when the connection is down and when it's up. I don't know enough about networks to have a clue about what is happening, but it's almost like I'm put in a 1 hour penalty box every time I Preview a resource.
Thanks Randy. I was thinking it was my computer. I had the same problem, and still have problems with updating. Will hold off wiping the drive on my computer.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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The way to get around the penalty wait is to reboot the pc. Using Windows.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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NB.Mick said:
(OT and I saw you get 12% on DDD - academic discount?
Yes, that's correct.
And - as per your earlier post - when I run a Topic Guide against "Redemption" ten results are reported but I only get five displayed with no "More" button
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Lynden Williams said:
The way to get around the penalty wait is to reboot the pc. Using Windows.
Not for me. Not even rebooting the PC and using a different user-id (and anonmous mode on Google Chrome) worked. Perhaps you obtained a different IP address after reboot.
(I'm writing from another PC on a totally different network)
Have joy in the Lord!
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Randy W. Sims said:
it's almost like I'm put in a 1 hour penalty box every time I Preview a resource
This is very helpful information, and I think it should be enough for our network engineers to diagnose and fix the problem; I've passed a report along.
Bradley, thanks for taking notice. I can confirm Randy's experience, although only for the new preview from the bookstore. If your engineers need some additional info (like IP adresses I was connected with or a Logos.Log / CEF.log) I may be able to mail it in or post after the penalty has been lifted...
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Randy W. Sims said:
it's almost like I'm put in a 1 hour penalty box every time I Preview a resource
This is very helpful information, and I think it should be enough for our network engineers to diagnose and fix the problem; I've passed a report along.
Bradley, thanks for taking notice. I can confirm Randy's experience, although only for the new preview from the bookstore. If your engineers need some additional info (like IP adresses I was connected with or a Logos.Log / CEF.log) I may be able to mail it in or post after the penalty has been lifted...
Okay, I tried the preview in the bookstore, and this just happened to me too. No access to Logos at all.
It's not a local computer issue, because it affects every computer behind my firewall. I'm now using my phone as an access point, since I can't get here from the home network.
I did a traceroute after the problem occurred and it gets all the way to Fibercloud, which is Logos' hosting provider. So it's not the network in between, which points to the problem being on Logos' side.
C:\Users\Todd>tracert logos.com
Tracing route to logos.com [216.57.209.226]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 3 ms 1 ms 1 ms csw32-ve-39.mci.surewest.com [66.64.120.1]
2 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms bbr30-te-3-2.mci.surewest.com [64.126.2.1]
3 2 ms 1 ms 2 ms ibr33-te-0-2-0.mci.surewest.com [64.126.2.10]
4 259 ms 5 ms 2 ms te-3-1.car2.KansasCity1.Level3.net [4.53.32.33]
5 41 ms 41 ms 41 ms ae-4-4.ebr2.Denver1.Level3.net [4.69.135.238]
6 42 ms 41 ms 41 ms ae-2-2.ebr2.Seattle1.Level3.net [4.69.132.53]
7 41 ms 41 ms 41 ms ae-2-52.edge2.Seattle3.Level3.net [4.69.147.171]
8 42 ms 41 ms 41 ms FIBERCLOUD.edge2.Seattle3.Level3.net [4.59.234.30]
9 44 ms 44 ms 44 ms ce1-xlink-to-pe1.bellingham.fibercloud.net [66.165.50.18]
10 * * * Request timed out.It's acting like my firewall address has been blacklisted and ignored.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Mark Barnes said:
what I would like to see is the preview button displaying the entire article
Randy W. Sims said:Add to Wishlist would be nice.
[Y]
NB.Mick said:This, in my opinion, takes up far too much space. Collapse to one line per title, and let us expand the titles we may be interested in.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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