Grammatical Relationships: "no results"

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Posts 35
Triskal | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Jul 6 2014 6:04 AM

The Grammatical Relationships section of the Bible Word Study does not always work for me.  For example if I do a word study from Psalm 89:8 in the ESV on the word "faithfulness" (lemma אֱמוּנָה) the tool works properly.  However, doing it on the word "hosts" (lemma צָבָא) in the same passage produces "no results".  

The tool appears to use Anderson-Forbes Hebrew Grammatical Relationships.  The results are the same using "by related word" or "verses" in the settings.

I own the Logos 4 and 5 cross-grades, which according to the wiki contains Grammatical Relationships (http://wiki.logos.com/Upgrade_or_Crossgrade).

In addition, I have already reindexed. 

Thanks for the help!

Posts 9107
LogosEmployee

I'd have to look into this further to be sure, but I think this is caused by the mismatch between Logos Hebrew lemmas (used in ESV reverse interlinear) and Andersen-Forbes Hebrew lemmas (used in the Grammatical Relationships section and in AFAT).

Usually, the software tries to convert between the two and find the best match in AFAT for the Logos lemma you're using. However, it appears that the conversion is not successful/possible here.

As a workaround, you can start your BWS from the equivalent word (צְבָאוֹת, lemma:צבא 4) in Psalm 89:9 in AFAT. This will cause the Grammatical Relationships section to be fully generated.

Posts 35
Triskal | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 9 2014 2:49 AM

Thanks.  However, your suggestion appears to only work part of the time.  It works for "hosts" but not for "might" in the same verse.  In addition, this does not appear to be a problem only with the ESV.  I tested on the NRSV, KJV, and LEB and have the same issue.  So, at least for some words, there is no work around.

Does Logos plan to fix these mismatch issues?  It seems to be a problem with maybe 25% of the words I try to do a word study on.

On a side note, it appears this was not a issue previously.  For example, in the Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew video series, he use Psalm 89:8 and the word "hosts" in a Bible Word Study to illustrate the grammatical relationships section successfully.  Has something changed in the software since then?

Posts 9107
LogosEmployee

Triskal:
It works for "hosts" but not for "might" in the same verse.

I don't know if it's expected behaviour or not that every word in AFAT returns results in the Grammatical Relationships section; I'm inquiring internally and will post back here.

Triskal:
Does Logos plan to fix these mismatch issues?

Yes, but I don't have a good estimate on the timeframe for delivering the fix.

Triskal:
On a side note, it appears this was not a issue previously. ... Has something changed in the software since then?

The English reverse interlinears used to be based on A-F morph (so no conversion was necessary). Around the time Logos 5 shipped, they were updated to be based on Logos Hebrew morph.

Posts 35
Triskal | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 3 2014 12:35 AM

Did you find anything out from your internal query?  Thanks!

Posts 2983
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 4 2014 2:47 PM

bump

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Posts 35
Triskal | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 2:28 AM

Did you find anything out from your internal query?  Thanks!

Posts 1385
LogosEmployee
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 5:52 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

Triskal:
It works for "hosts" but not for "might" in the same verse.

I don't know if it's expected behaviour or not that every word in AFAT returns results in the Grammatical Relationships section; I'm inquiring internally and will post back here.

EDIT: It appears I misunderstood the problem; I thought the issue was with relationships generated with 'might' as the study word, not 'hosts'.

Old response (below) preserved as I believe it addresses the issue with 'might'. Apologies for the confusion. I'll have another response for you soon.

 — RB

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not every word will have an entry in Grammatical Relationships. This instance (Ps 89.8) is the only instance of this word in the Hebrew Bible. Once-occurring words (hapax legomenon) are the likeliest to fall through the cracks in the grammatical relationships.

The data backing Grammatical Relationships does not comprehensively account for every relationship every word may be in; it instead works through a (large) series of templates providing information on common relationships words are found in (X is the subject of verb Y). If the word is not found to have some relationship in one of those templates, there are no hits. Words that occur few or only one time in the Biblical text are the ones that usually end up with no information, and on those it is best to head to a lexicon article to learn more about the word as those sources treat these sorts of words most thoroughly.

Hope it helps.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 1385
LogosEmployee
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 6:15 AM

Triskal:
Thanks.  However, your suggestion appears to only work part of the time.  It works for "hosts" but not for "might" in the same verse.  In addition, this does not appear to be a problem only with the ESV.  I tested on the NRSV, KJV, and LEB and have the same issue.  So, at least for some words, there is no work around.

As Bradley mentioned, running a BWS from the Andersen-Forbes text is the surest way for the Grammatical Relationships data (GR), which is based on Andersen-Forbes, to return GR results when they exist (see my previous post for cases in which results may not exist). If your Hebrew is rusty or non-existent, then sympathetic highlighting with AFAT is the best way to find the appropriate word to use for the BWS.

As I mentioned in the above post, with words that occur a very few time in limited syntactic contexts, GR may have no data.

On the mismatch issue: this is a hard problem to solve in a general manner, largely because groups responsible for different analyses of the Hebrew text have a hard time agreeing on what a word is, and how to represent lemmas. In Logos 6, we have a new section in BWS called "Clause Participants" that merges syntactic analysis data with our referent analysis (the referent analysis resolves stuff like pronouns in context). This section has a grammatical view and a semantic view. The grammatical view queries our clause search database, and does provide results for 'hosts' similar to those from Grammatical Relationships. Still no results for 'mighty', though. The problem there is the same: not enough instances.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 35
Triskal | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 30 2014 1:52 AM

Thanks.  Your explanation expanded on what Bradley said previously, especially on why certain words don't work as well through the tool.  I should note that it appears the success rate these days using the tool is much better than before (I estimated 25% in a previous post).  So, it appears someone at Logos is improving GR data.  Great!

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