Hebrew Audio shipping on Monday! WOOT!!!

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This post has 64 Replies | 5 Followers

Posts 274
Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 14 2014 2:05 PM

Just got my email and it works on the iPad app as well hooray. Big SmileCoolBig Smile

Posts 4768
RIP
Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 14 2014 2:07 PM

I just downloaded. It will take a while to get used to looking at my pre-pub order list and not see the Hebrew Pronunciation Addin.Big Smile

Posts 19254
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 14 2014 2:21 PM

Fredc:

I just downloaded. It will take a while to get used to looking at my pre-pub order list and not see the Hebrew Pronunciation Addin.Big Smile

Indeed. Now my longest standing prepubs are NIB and NIDB, both shipping within a month. After that it will be two new volumes of WBC I'm waiting for, and then The Works of Jonathan Edwards. Those are the last of my longstanding prepubs that are under contract.

Posts 777
David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 14 2014 2:55 PM

Mine downloaded.  I tried it out in my ESV 2 Chron 25:1 for the word "years".  It pronounced it.  I then tried "children" from the subsequent verse 4. IT SAID THE SAME THING!  Knowing zip about Hebrew, I repeated both verifying that the spoken word was identical.

It appeared to be broken until I examined the underlying lemmas to discover that, for some reason, they are the same.  Testing other words gave me differing results and restored my faith in the tool.  It is bizarre that I chose two words with such varied meaning in English that would have the same Hebrew lemma.

So now I have the same Hebrew pronunciation tool that I have enjoyed in Greek for many years.  Thanks to Rosie who pointed this out.

Posts 433
Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 14 2014 3:06 PM

Hello, David. On the first instance of 'years' in 2 Chronicles 25:1, notice that there are two lemmas on that English word ('son' and 'year'), and you get different audio depending on which lemma you select. It's part of an idiom "the son of twenty and five years" that the ESV renders 'twenty five years old'.

Posts 777
David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 14 2014 3:18 PM

Vincent Setterholm:

Hello, David. On the first instance of 'years' in 2 Chronicles 25:1, notice that there are two lemmas on that English word ('son' and 'year'), and you get different audio depending on which lemma you select. It's part of an idiom "the son of twenty and five years" that the ESV renders 'twenty five years old'.

Thank you for your prompt explanation.  Due to my total lack of Hebrew knowledge I was amused rather than alarmed.  Idioms are the bane of casual language enthusiasts.

Posts 667
Jonathan Pitts | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 14 2014 3:42 PM

Can anyone explain the pronunciation of melek (מֶ֫לֶךְ, king, ruler) to me, as shown in the video on the product page.

I always presumed it was pronounced melech, but Logos pronounces it nearer melechs, melless or melex. Other words with a final kaf are pronounced as I would expect.

Is there something I don't understand here?

Posts 777
David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 14 2014 3:48 PM

Jonathan Pitts:

Can anyone explain the pronunciation of melek (מֶ֫לֶךְ, king, ruler) to me, as shown in the video on the product page.

I always presumed it was pronounced melech, but Logos pronounces it nearer melechs, melless or melex. Other words with a final kaf are pronounced as I would expect.

Is there something I don't understand here?

Perhaps, while we have a coterie of people interested in Hebrew assembled on this thread, we should ask if there are variations in Hebrew pronunciation like there is in Greek.  Do the pronunciations in Logos match modern Hebrew?

Posts 667
Jonathan Pitts | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 14 2014 4:05 PM

David A Egolf:

Jonathan Pitts:

Can anyone explain the pronunciation of melek (מֶ֫לֶךְ, king, ruler) to me, as shown in the video on the product page.

I always presumed it was pronounced melech, but Logos pronounces it nearer melechs, melless or melex. Other words with a final kaf are pronounced as I would expect.

Is there something I don't understand here?

Perhaps, while we have a coterie of people interested in Hebrew assembled on this thread, we should ask if there are variations in Hebrew pronunciation like there is in Greek.  Do the pronunciations in Logos match modern Hebrew?

The information in the pronunciation tool window (open the window and click on the i) explains that. It's modern Hebrew with a couple of variations. The text there explains the variations in Masoretic and earlier Hebrew, as far as we know them.

Posts 433
Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 14 2014 5:06 PM

Jonathan Pitts:

but Logos pronounces it nearer melechs

There does seem to be a little extra air at the tail end of that clip that gives the release of the final kaf a slightly hissing quality. I'll flag it and see if Dr. Buth wants to re-record it (he's very busy teaching over the summer, so it won't be immediate, but we have plans for a bit of additional recording).

Posts 176
Rob | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 14 2014 5:15 PM

The program curiously spells some words rather than pronounces them at times.

For example check the word "die" in Genesis 3:4

Rob

Posts 667
Jonathan Pitts | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 14 2014 5:33 PM
Vincent Setterholm:

Jonathan Pitts:

but Logos pronounces it nearer melechs

There does seem to be a little extra air at the tail end of that clip that gives the release of the final kaf a slightly hissing quality. I'll flag it and see if Dr. Buth wants to re-record it (he's very busy teaching over the summer, so it won't be immediate, but we have plans for a bit of additional recording).

I wasn't sure if it was a fault in the recording or some special feature of the pronunciation that my self-taught basic Hebrew hadn't picked up.

Thanks for all the work on this.

Posts 433
Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 14 2014 5:42 PM

Rob:

The program curiously spells some words rather than pronounces them at times.

Yes. if you get down to the bottom of the 'information' page, there is a brief explanation of this. Dr. Buth felt very strongly that people shouldn't be learning forms that are not real words, in essence internalizing gibberish. For example, if a verb only occurs in the Niphal or Hitpael stem, taking the three root radicals and putting Qal stem-like vowels on it is often producing something that isn't real Hebrew. In these cases, scholars nowadays generally refer to the root by its three radicals. A similar situation can happen with hollow verbs or geminates. If in the Qal, one of the radicals drops out, putting vowels on all three radicals will generally produce something that is not a real word.

So there ends up being about 300 words, give or take, where the lemma is read off by the radicals, rather than creating a fake word. We did actually record alternate forms from BDB and other sources that follow a different model, vocalizing the root radicals - the thought being that at some point we might want to support getting at audio from lexicon headwords, and we'll need recordings of those forms to accomplish that, despite some of those forms being not real Hebrew.

Posts 2796
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 14 2014 7:40 PM

Jonathan Pitts:

Veli Voipio:
Reminds me Jacob waiting for seven years.

Don't tell me they're going to give me a different product and then I'll have to wait another seven years for Hebrew Audio Pronunciations.Stick out tongue

Some teach that he only had to wait a week before getting his second wife [no clue when he took the other two] but then had to work the other seven years to pay up.

Posts 32583
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 14 2014 7:57 PM

Vincent Setterholm:
not real Hebrew.

Not real as (a) not attested (b) phonetically or morphological prohibited (c) logically prohibited ... given our limited corpus argument "a" doesn't tell us much; argument "b" is much more interesting.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 433
Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 14 2014 10:30 PM

MJ. Smith:

Vincent Setterholm:
not real Hebrew.

Not real as (a) not attested (b) phonetically or morphological prohibited (c) logically prohibited ... given our limited corpus argument "a" doesn't tell us much; argument "b" is much more interesting.

There's examples of all three. All of them fall into category 'a' (they are unattested whether or not they also break morphological or semantic rules). The geminates and many hollow verbs, for example, would clearly be in category b. And if we allow violating semantic rules as examples of 'c', I'd bet we could find several examples where positing a Qal doesn't make sense semantically. Of course, there will be some words that may only fall into 'a', where we simply don't have enough data to know whether a Qal or a Piel, for example, would have been recognized by an ancient speaker. Words that only appear as participles are also tricky - some may in fact be nouns where no purely verbal form of the same stem would be recognized as a real word by a native speaker.

Imagine I told you, "Today I weared my brown shirt." It might not be obvious to a non-native that this was gibberish. "I seared an Ahi fillet" is just fine, why would 'sear' and 'wear' follow different morphological rules for forming the past tense? No analogy is perfect, but I think that gives a sense of the type of thing Dr. Buth is combatting: the idea that you can just memorize your morphological paradigms and apply them to any root and arrive at real Hebrew, or even worse: assume that the Qal paradigm is appropriate for every verb. There are many words where taking your three radicals and reading 1A2A3 doesn't produce a real word.

Posts 571
Martin Grainger Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 15 2014 2:54 AM
Logos, thanks for the Hebrew Audio Pronunciations! But where can I find the support info for this file? I can't see it in About Logos tab... Martin.
Posts 306
Hans van den Herik | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 15 2014 5:05 AM

Will there be a complete Hebrew Audio Version of the OT also? I do have a Greek Version for the NT and I enjoy and use it.

Hans

Posts 2744
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 15 2014 5:10 AM

Many thanks for releasing of this tool. I am very happy to have that. Good job Logos. And, by the way, you taught us patience as an additional effect in waiting for that prepub. Smile

Bohuslav

Posts 2744
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 15 2014 5:11 AM

A.J. van den Herik:

Will there be a complete Hebrew Audio Version of the OT also? I do have a Greek Version for the NT and I enjoy and use it.

Hans

Would be great. I second that suggestion. Yes

Bohuslav

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