Barth - should he be included in Reformed Diamond?

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 3 2014 3:15 PM

fgh:

Milkman:
would we say that he is 'reformed' like Packer, Sproul, horton or Bavinck

To me that's an extremely strange question. If someone asked me to name three Reformed theologians, I would probably say Calvin, Zwingli and Barth. I suspect most people I know who know some theology would say the same. I doubt I had even heard of those others before joining this forum. In other words, in much of the theological world, Barth is the modern Reformed theologian. 

Big Smile

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 3 2014 3:38 PM

NB.Mick:

fgh:

Milkman:
would we say that he is 'reformed' like Packer, Sproul, horton or Bavinck

To me that's an extremely strange question. If someone asked me to name three Reformed theologians, I would probably say Calvin, Zwingli and Barth. I suspect most people I know who know some theology would say the same. I doubt I had even heard of those others before joining this forum. In other words, in much of the theological world, Barth is the modern Reformed theologian. 

Big Smile

I did say something about "European" Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 3 2014 4:15 PM

Greg Masone:

Sean:
I have read all of Barth's Church Dogmatics. (In Logos, which is the only way I'd recommend to do it; it's far superior to the unwieldy print editions.)

Sean, 

How long did it take you to read it all? What was your overall strategy? 

I have it in Logos and have been wondering about tackling it soon.

Thanks!

5 yrs 3 mo  15 days & 6 hrs.  Just kidding, but it is massive.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 3 2014 5:21 PM

George Somsel:

Greg Masone:

Sean:
I have read all of Barth's Church Dogmatics. (In Logos, which is the only way I'd recommend to do it; it's far superior to the unwieldy print editions.)

Sean, 

How long did it take you to read it all? What was your overall strategy? 

I have it in Logos and have been wondering about tackling it soon.

Thanks!

5 yrs 3 mo  15 days & 6 hrs.  Just kidding, but it is massive.

That's actually a pretty close estimate--5 or 6 years at least with sometimes extensive breaks.

I didn't have a reading plan. I just started at the beginning and read till the end, making a bookmark as I went. I tried to cover about 10-20 pages a day. For a long, long time Barth was my morning devotional reading. It was a good time!

I keep notes and quotes in Nota Bene. For each volume I have 20-30 pages.

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elnwood | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 4 2014 10:16 AM

I think Reformed Diamond is where Barth belongs ... and not in Reformed Platinum or below.

For the lower base packages, you want to have those Reformed theologians that are essential for understanding the Reformed tradition: Calvin, Hodge, Warfield, Berkhof, and others. Those belong in Reformed Starter, Bronze, Silver, or Gold.

But Reformed Diamond is a luxury purchase, and Barth's Church Dogmatics exactly that -- nonessential for understanding the Reformed tradition, and too difficult to read for the beginning Reformed theologian. But for those already grounded in Reformed thought, and who have the interest in exploring the borders of Reformed thought and the cash to purchase it, Barth's Church Dogmatics is a natural choice.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 4 2014 10:27 AM

elnwood:
Reformed Diamond is a luxury purchase, and Barth's Church Dogmatics exactly that -- nonessential for understanding the Reformed tradition, and too difficult to read for the beginning Reformed theologian.

Well said elnwood. I think you are right on with this.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 4 2014 10:53 AM

elnwood, that's an amazing comment. First, I'm not reformed (nor un-reformed) so I don't care.  But I had considered purchasing Barth since he gets 'hit' constantly in my readings.  But then I thought .... wait .... he's a luxury purchase non-essential for the understanding the Reformed tradition.

Whew.

Just joking but what could you possibly mean?  I spend a lot more on a lot less influential authors.  And I suspect that the Reformed packages have a passle of authors no one's ever heard of.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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Greg | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 4 2014 11:16 AM

Sean:

That's actually a pretty close estimate--5 or 6 years at least with sometimes extensive breaks.

I didn't have a reading plan. I just started at the beginning and read till the end, making a bookmark as I went. I tried to cover about 10-20 pages a day. For a long, long time Barth was my morning devotional reading. It was a good time!

I keep notes and quotes in Nota Bene. For each volume I have 20-30 pages.

Cool! What was your criteria for taking notes and quotes? How did you organize them, if you don't mind me asking?

I've just started using Logos for casual reading and note taking, but I'm finding the note taking portion of the program, at least on the iPad, not ideal, and I'm looking into other solutions. 

Nota Bene seems like a neat program for Windows. I may consider it. Have you ever used OneNote? 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 4 2014 12:19 PM

elnwood:
For the lower base packages, you want to have those Reformed theologians that are essential for understanding the Reformed tradition:

What I find fascinating is that my secular college considered Barth so fundamental to culture and religion that he was required reading. And subsequently he has been a theologian that I have run into with a frequency to the point I can't imagine trying to understand any contemporary theology without a basic understanding of Barth.

Did Warfield have much influence outside the US reformed circles? I've never run into a need to know him.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 4 2014 12:40 PM

MJ. Smith:

elnwood:
For the lower base packages, you want to have those Reformed theologians that are essential for understanding the Reformed tradition:

What I find fascinating is that my secular college considered Barth so fundamental to culture and religion that he was required reading. And subsequently he has been a theologian that I have run into with a frequency to the point I can't imagine trying to understand any contemporary theology without a basic understanding of Barth.

Did Warfield have much influence outside the US reformed circles? I've never run into a need to know him.

My systematics professor in the cemetery studied under Barth.  He was continually trying to counter him, but that made Barth even more interesting.  I tend to think that any systematician in the coming years who doesn't deal adequately with Barth will be found wanting (not that I agree with him in all respects).  I had a chance to hear Barth in Chicago 2-3 yrs ago <smile, you know I'm lying>.  I think that what Aquinas and Calvin were to the church in their time will be what Barth is to modern Christianity—a sine qua non.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Evan Boardman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 4 2014 12:48 PM

Heres a question, what think ye of Tim Keller? Is he Reformed? He and Barth travel in the same boat, when it comes to Natural Law and Kingdom Theology.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 4 2014 12:59 PM

Evan Boardman:
Heres a question, what think ye of Tim Keller?

I rarely think of him - he's only a name to me. I've not read anything by him. I've seen maybe one article about him in secular publications; I've never run into him in a footnote or bibliography that made me think I needed to know anything about him.

Is James P. Carse Reformed? of non-Catholic American theologians he's the one I remember recommending most frequently.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 4 2014 1:27 PM

Evan Boardman:
Heres a question, what think ye of Tim Keller? Is he Reformed? He and Barth travel in the same boat, when it comes to Natural Law and Kingdom Theology.

Keller's a Presbyterian, so he's confessionally reformed. If you want more insight, this book is probably your best bet (not in Logos though).

This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!

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Evan Boardman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 4 2014 1:57 PM

Wow! A book about Tim Keller!

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Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 5 2014 12:50 AM

Greg Masone:

Sean:

That's actually a pretty close estimate--5 or 6 years at least with sometimes extensive breaks.

I didn't have a reading plan. I just started at the beginning and read till the end, making a bookmark as I went. I tried to cover about 10-20 pages a day. For a long, long time Barth was my morning devotional reading. It was a good time!

I keep notes and quotes in Nota Bene. For each volume I have 20-30 pages.

Cool! What was your criteria for taking notes and quotes? How did you organize them, if you don't mind me asking?

I've just started using Logos for casual reading and note taking, but I'm finding the note taking portion of the program, at least on the iPad, not ideal, and I'm looking into other solutions. 

Nota Bene seems like a neat program for Windows. I may consider it. Have you ever used OneNote? 

Greg, Nota Bene, in its Lingua Workstation form, is a complete academic word processor with bibliography management and Orbis, a "note-retrieval and information processing module." You enter a work into the biblio database once for all of your citations. With it you can associate notes files that are completely searchable (though not with all the operators that Logos has). I make one of these for every book I read.

With a Logos book like Barth's CD, I just put down the page number and copy & paste interesting quotes with my comments. Lately I've taken to adding #hashtags to quotes just in case they don't contain a likely keyword that I'd search for in the future. It's like Google for your word processing files.

I do this for my paper books as well, basically to have all my information in one place. I've never used OneNote nor have I used Logos's note-taking functions. (I was stuck with Libronix when I started using Nota Bene for my theses.)

A lot of Christian scholars use Nota Bene. I know N.T. Wright does, plus I think they have some sort of tie-up with the SBL. It is mostly suitable for academic writings and lengthier works; an "Office-type" word processor is nicer for shorter/less formal ones. One of the best things things about it is that cut & paste Greek and Hebrew from Logos transfer perfectly into Nota Bene without any formatting problems.

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Evan Boardman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 5 2014 2:31 PM

Evan Boardman:
Natural Law and the Two Kingdoms by David Van Drunen
Evan Boardman:
Not yet in Logos, but in Vyrso is a good book

It use to be in Vyrso, but I dont see it there anymore? Sad

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elnwood | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 5 2014 8:38 PM

Denise:

elnwood, that's an amazing comment. First, I'm not reformed (nor un-reformed) so I don't care.  But I had considered purchasing Barth since he gets 'hit' constantly in my readings.  But then I thought .... wait .... he's a luxury purchase non-essential for the understanding the Reformed tradition.

Whew.

Just joking but what could you possibly mean?  I spend a lot more on a lot less influential authors.  And I suspect that the Reformed packages have a passle of authors no one's ever heard of.

MJ. Smith:

elnwood:
For the lower base packages, you want to have those Reformed theologians that are essential for understanding the Reformed tradition:

What I find fascinating is that my secular college considered Barth so fundamental to culture and religion that he was required reading. And subsequently he has been a theologian that I have run into with a frequency to the point I can't imagine trying to understand any contemporary theology without a basic understanding of Barth.

Did Warfield have much influence outside the US reformed circles? I've never run into a need to know him.

Denise and MJ,

I suspect that a large reason why you consider Barth more important and influential than the other Reformed theologians is because you aren't Reformed, and because you read theology for interest and pleasure, not for ministry.

Yes, Warfield did not have much influence outside Reformed circles, but truth be told, Barth hasn't had much influence among Reformed evangelicals either -- hence, the question was asked why he was in the package to begin with!

I suspect you consider Barth important because you read a lot of theology. Yes, Barth is influential among theologians and academics. Yes, Barth is important for understanding "contemporary theology." But Barth's importance and influence is minimal among evangelical Reformed pastors and lay ministers, and these are the people for whom the Reformed base packages are targeted. You don't need to understand Barth to understand Reformed theology.

For you heavy-lifting theologian-types with lots of cash to spend and aren't working for peanuts in ministry, behold, Barth's Church Dogmatics is there for you in the Reformed Diamond package! But for those of us committed to laboring in teaching the Word, and teach from an evangelical Reformed background, I say reading Barth's Church Dogmatics is a luxury.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 5 2014 9:08 PM

elnwood:
Warfield did not have much influence outside Reformed circles

Question: Did Warfield have much influence outside the English-speaking world?

Just to set the record straight - my primary interests are in liturgical theology and scripture study methodology. Most of the systematic theology I have read was assignedEmbarrassed And people who retired a decade ago on a state pension don't have "lots of cash". And yes, my ministriy never represented more than 20 hours a week although at one time there was an intention to go full time.

elnwood:
I say reading Barth's Church Dogmatics is a luxury.

I've worked with students from regions of the world where Bibles to read are a luxury.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Evan Boardman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 5 2014 9:46 PM

In regards to Warfield, what he should be known for is his great work against Perfectism. I know no one who has done this better than him.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 5 2014 9:55 PM

Evan Boardman:

In regards to Warfield, what he should be known for is his great work against Perfectism. I know no one who has done this better than him.

If you attend a cemetery which teaches more than you can get at daily vacation bible school, you should know Barth, Tillich and Brunner. It would also be a good idea for them to teach some of the developments in Catholic theology such as Vatican II.  I've never considered Warfield to be that greatly important.  You note "evangelical reformed"—yes, fundamentalists like him.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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