Barth - should he be included in Reformed Diamond?

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Posts 737
Evan Boardman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 6 2014 12:32 AM

George, you highlighted what I said in regards to Warfield as why he should be important and then made quotes of things I've never said.

Posts 1391
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 6 2014 5:03 AM

Barth is widely regarded as one of the five most important of all (Western) theologians (the other four being Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Calvin, and Schleiermacher--there's really not much dispute over these five, though there will be if you try to expand the list to 10 Smile). In many ways, he was a sort of Cassandra--he overwhelming showed that continental liberal theology of his time could not continue on its then trajectory, but few accepted his recommended corrections. On the other hand, he was unfairly reviled and dismissed by the right wing, especially in America. Many unfortunately chose to outsource their reading of him to Van Til, and that was that. Yet, much that Barth warned about was prophetic. He still speaks relevantly to our Christianity today, and I'm personally of the opinion that many of the problems facing contemporary evangelicalism could have been avoided if Barth had been given a fair hearing. (Though he is partially to blame for that--Church Dogmatics could have been a few thousand pages shorter and lost nothing in terms of thoroughness.)

One thing that astounded me so much (and, frankly, shook my trust in certain branches of theological scholarship) while reading Barth was coming across clear statements that flatly contradicted what other writers claimed that Barth believed. His theology is solely focused on the revelation of God in Jesus Christ, built around a covenantal structure, and deterministic and monergistic in soteriology. He ably defended the Trinity, the authority of the Bible, the deity, virgin birth, substitutionary atonement, and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. What's not to appreciate about that? (Yes, there are some parts you won't appreciate, but they come to a hundred or so pages as most.)

There's a lot more to the Reformed tradition than Old Princeton--quite a bit more--and I'll leave this where it is just saying you real owe yourself, and the dignity of this rich tradition, to look around outside that box a little. I am also one who teaches the Word, but for quite a bit less than "peanuts." I regret not the least bit picking up Barth's CD cheaply when it was on pre-pub, nor the time and energy it took for me to read through it. It did wonders both for my ministry and my personal faith. I am glad that Logos is doing what it can to make this valuable work more widely known and read in the church.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 6 2014 6:50 AM

Evan Boardman:

George, you highlighted what I said in regards to Warfield as why he should be important and then made quotes of things I've never said.

I wasn't aware that I either quoted anything you said or purported to do so.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 4167
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 6 2014 11:28 AM

George Somsel:

Evan Boardman:

In regards to Warfield, what he should be known for is his great work against Perfectism. I know no one who has done this better than him.

If you attend a cemetery which teaches more than you can get at daily vacation bible school, you should know Barth, Tillich and Brunner. It would also be a good idea for them to teach some of the developments in Catholic theology such as Vatican II.  I've never considered Warfield to be that greatly important.  You note "evangelical reformed"—yes, fundamentalists like him.

Thats strong tea there George. There are entire denominational streams - some that are somewhat reformed - that don't engage barth at all in their seminaries.

L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 6 2014 12:01 PM

abondservant:
Thats strong tea there George. There are entire denominational streams - some that are somewhat reformed - that don't engage barth at all in their seminaries.

Then they are doing a great disservice to their students and the denominations they will serve.  Would you ignore Luther, Calvin, Arminius, Wesley?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 6 2014 12:07 PM

Well, yes, now that you ask.  My theologians are Clement, Barnabas, the Twelve, and of course Ignatius (depending on what he might have wrote or not).

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 1928
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 6 2014 12:31 PM

George Somsel:
If you attend a cemetery which teaches more than you can get at daily vacation bible school, you should know Barth, Tillich and Brunner. It would also be a good idea for them to teach some of the developments in Catholic theology such as Vatican II.

Hmm - I attended a mainline school and Brunner was barely mentioned.  I never read him.  And Tillich was peripheral - read more of him in undergrad.  Barth was important, but so was Pannenberg, Moltmann, DJ Hall, and Robbert Jenson.  Then there were the feminists and various 2/3rds world figures...

Pretty sure I would want to add Volf and Wright nowadays...

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

Posts 4167
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 6 2014 12:32 PM

George Somsel:

abondservant:
Thats strong tea there George. There are entire denominational streams - some that are somewhat reformed - that don't engage barth at all in their seminaries.

Then they are doing a great disservice to their students and the denominations they will serve.  Would you ignore Luther, Calvin, Arminius, Wesley?

When Barth makes the difference that Calvin et al did, perhaps then your words would carry more weight with me.

L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 6 2014 12:36 PM

Ken McGuire:
Hmm - I attended a mainline school and Brunner was barely mentioned.  I never read him.  And Tillich was peripheral - read more of him in undergrad.  Barth was important, but so was Pannenberg, Moltmann, DJ Hall, and Robbert Jenson.  Then there were the feminists and various 2/3rds world

DJ Hall—the football wide receiver?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1928
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 6 2014 12:43 PM

George Somsel:
DJ Hall—the football wide receiver?

Douglas John Hall - Canadian Theologian, and author.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 6 2014 1:00 PM

abondservant:

George Somsel:

abondservant:
Thats strong tea there George. There are entire denominational streams - some that are somewhat reformed - that don't engage barth at all in their seminaries.

Then they are doing a great disservice to their students and the denominations they will serve.  Would you ignore Luther, Calvin, Arminius, Wesley?

When Barth makes the difference that Calvin et al did, perhaps then your words would carry more weight with me.

I'll remind you of that in 500 years.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 4167
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 6 2014 2:21 PM

Likely you will still be nearly 39, but I will be too old to remember this conversation by then :)

L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

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