Logos only lets your transfer book Licenses once???

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  • William Gabriel
    William Gabriel Member Posts: 1,091 ✭✭

    they are willing to listen and dialog through any criticism.

    We are waiting.

    BTW: Logos is reluctant to delete any thread other than SPAM. It takes highly offensive comments and a lot of begging to get one deleted. But it does happen. (maligning Mexican Catholics is a start towards deletion)

    Yeah, I suppose they have deleted other threads on the grounds of theological fights or insults, but I don't think I've ever seen it happen to quiet dissent. I think they know they'd have to shut down the whole forum if they started down that road.

    It will be interesting to see if anything changes as a result of this thread. I didn't claim that they always did something about the criticism, but they do absorb it rather than try to quash any rebellions. And the CEO even gets on here to talk to us. He may not always say things we agree with or like, but doing that is the opposite attitude to deleting discussions they don't like about Logos.

  • abondservant
    abondservant Member Posts: 4,796 ✭✭✭

    they are willing to listen and dialog through any criticism.

    We are waiting.

    BTW: Logos is reluctant to delete any thread other than SPAM. It takes highly offensive comments and a lot of begging to get one deleted. But it does happen. (maligning Mexican Catholics is a start towards deletion)

    Its just a joke - and largely aimed at Logos. They first confused Denise as a catholic, then began considering her a Mexican as I understand it.

    They changed MJ's name to halvar. Its just moderately entertaining marketing missteps that I'm commenting on.

    L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,

  • Paul C
    Paul C Member Posts: 424 ✭✭

    (maligning Mexican Catholics is a start towards deletion)

    I am told that If we clarify what we say with an emoticon, or 2, The post is less likely to be deleted. 

      

  • Silent Sam
    Silent Sam Member Posts: 176 ✭✭

                                                                                     [^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,190 ✭✭✭✭

    A more serious question is Silent Sam's EULA agreement.   I'm not really clear on whether transfer rights accompany the governed use clauses, especially for the well known (and highly regarded) 'Four Threes'.   Many Logosians are actually unaware that even the emoticons use the 'Threes' as a silent but powerful statement.

    But more seriously, I hope anyone passing through this thread knows my issues with 'Catholics' and folks south of our border are said in jest relative to Logos' marketing efforts.  My favorite church remains the Catholic church on the native american reservation southwest of Tucson.  The ladies carefully place their candles inside the old church, while their hubbies are outside chatting, watching the early morning smoke from the cook fires lazily rise toward the heavens.  Theology is a simple belief.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Paul C
    Paul C Member Posts: 424 ✭✭

    Denise said:

    But more seriously, I hope anyone passing through this thread knows my issues with 'Catholics' and folks south of our border are said in jest relative to Logos' marketing efforts.  My favorite church remains the Catholic church on the native american reservation southwest of Tucson.

    I sure hope you don't add any more modifiers.[:O] 

              

  • Tony Thomas
    Tony Thomas Member Posts: 445 ✭✭

    Do we really own e-books?

    According to this article in gigaom, we just rent them:

    "As I’ve tried to point out before, both publishers and distributors like Amazon have spent the past decade or so removing rights that we used to have when books were physical property, and were something that you actually bought — along with the right to resell and/or lend them to whomever you wished, whenever you wished. Those rights no longer exist, which is why it’s better to think of an ebook purchase as an agreement to rent access under specific terms rather than an actual acquisition of something tangible."

    http://gigaom.com/2012/10/22/a-healthy-reminder-from-amazon-you-dont-buy-ebooks-you-rent-them/

    The Logos EULA states:

    At Logos' sole discretion you may transfer all your rights to use the Software, Content, and Documentation to another person or legal entity provided you transfer this Agreement, the Software, Content, and Documentation, including all copies, updates and prior versions to such person or entity and that you retain no copies, including copies stored on computer. There will be a processing fee charged on all transfers which is subject to change without notice. As of 6/17/09 the fee is equal to $20.00 per transfer.

    https://www.logos.com/support/eula

    By contrast, the Kindle license is much more restrictive:

     Kindle Content

    Use of Kindle Content. Upon your download of Kindle Content and payment of any applicable fees (including applicable taxes), the Content Provider grants you a non-exclusive right to view, use, and display such Kindle Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Kindle or a Reading Application or as otherwise permitted as part of the Service, solely on the number of Kindles or Supported Devices specified in the Kindle Store, and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Kindle Content is licensed, not sold, to you by the Content Provider. The Content Provider may include additional terms for use within its Kindle Content. Those terms will also apply, but this Agreement will govern in the event of a conflict. Some Kindle Content, such as Periodicals, may not be available to you through Reading Applications.

    Limitations. Unless specifically indicated otherwise, you may not sell, rent, lease, distribute, broadcast, sublicense, or otherwise assign any rights to the Kindle Content or any portion of it to any third party, and you may not remove or modify any proprietary notices or labels on the Kindle Content. In addition, you may not bypass, modify, defeat, or circumvent security features that protect the Kindle Content.

    Periodicals. You may cancel your subscription as permitted in our cancellation policy in the Kindle Store. A subscription may be terminated at any time, for example, if a Periodical is no longer available. If a subscription is terminated before the end of its term, you will receive a prorated refund. We reserve the right to change subscription terms and fees from time to time, effective as of the beginning of the next subscription term.

    Risk of Loss. Risk of loss for Kindle Content transfers when you download or access the Kindle Content.

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?ie=UTF8&nodeId=200771440

    Director of Zoeproject 

    www.zoeproject.com

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    better to think of an ebook purchase as an agreement to rent access

    The difference between a Kindle book and a Logos book is price.

    Kindle 99 cents

    Logos $20-$50

    Which should I rent?

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Tony Thomas
    Tony Thomas Member Posts: 445 ✭✭

    better to think of an ebook purchase as an agreement to rent access

    The difference between a Kindle book and a Logos book is price.

    Kindle 99 cents

    Logos $20-$50

    Which should I rent?

    I think that it really depends upon the type of book it is and how you plan to use it.  I have tons of Kindle .99 public domain books (mostly Puritan) plus a lot of free works from CCEL and other sources.  I also buy a lot of regular books from Amazon for reading purposes.

    However, if it is a reference work that I plan to use often, it is worth it to pay for the tagging and markup that Logos offers.

    Director of Zoeproject 

    www.zoeproject.com

  • Erik
    Erik Member Posts: 413 ✭✭

    Do we really own e-books?

    According to this article in gigaom, we just rent them:

    That is not quite legally accurate.   That article may be using common terms to explain this to its readers, but if you want to be accurate, our Logos books are not rented, they are licensed.  As long as you are not in breach of the license terms (which do not include a rental fee unless you opt to pay a monthly rental fee for the resources that provide that option), Logos would not have the right to shut off access to your licensed materials.  That applies to Kindle as well...if you read that article, the person who was shut off had violated the Kindle license terms. 

  • Tony Thomas
    Tony Thomas Member Posts: 445 ✭✭

    Erik said:

    Do we really own e-books?

    According to this article in gigaom, we just rent them:

    That is not quite legally accurate.   That article may be using common terms to explain this to its readers, but if you want to be accurate, our Logos books are not rented, they are licensed.  As long as you are not in breach of the license terms (which do not include a rental fee unless you opt to pay a monthly rental fee for the resources that provide that option), Logos would not have the right to shut off access to your licensed materials.  That applies to Kindle as well...if you read that article, the person who was shut off had violated the Kindle license terms. 

    True. The proper "word of art" is license.  However, it is still something different from "ownership" as you are only given access to the files to view in specified ways using specified software subject to the terms of the license agreement.  The fact that Logos allows you transfer its license is very unique in the publishing industry as most other licenses are non-transferrable.

    Director of Zoeproject 

    www.zoeproject.com

  • Erik
    Erik Member Posts: 413 ✭✭

    Erik said:

    Do we really own e-books?

    According to this article in gigaom, we just rent them:

    That is not quite legally accurate.   That article may be using common terms to explain this to its readers, but if you want to be accurate, our Logos books are not rented, they are licensed.  As long as you are not in breach of the license terms (which do not include a rental fee unless you opt to pay a monthly rental fee for the resources that provide that option), Logos would not have the right to shut off access to your licensed materials.  That applies to Kindle as well...if you read that article, the person who was shut off had violated the Kindle license terms. 

    True. The proper "word of art" is license.  However, it is still something different from "ownership" as you are only given access to the files to view in specified ways using specified software subject to the terms of the license agreement.  The fact that Logos allows you transfer its license is very unique in the publishing industry as most other licenses are non-transferrable.

    Indeed, the Logos model is quite unique in allowing us to transfer licenses.  I negotiate IP licenses (primarily in the semiconductor space, but I have a great deal of experience with software licensing as well) for a living and it is quite typical to have restrictions on assignment in all license agreements.  Logos could have just as easily taken that path and written their EULA to prevent any transfers.  That said, the fact that they have been so loose in their terms was a critical point in leading to my choice to invest in their platform. I understand the business/finance considerations that Bob is trying to juggle with their terms...and believe him when he says they will do the right thing.  I realize that Logos will not for the foreseeable future be able to come out with a policy of unlimited transfers and think we are at best going to continue to get an ambiguous response.  For those that can't live with that result, the only option for the foreseeable future would be to revert to print.  Maybe someday there will be a change in the industry for the better, but for now I realize that the answer is not a simple one for us or Logos. 

  • Helen
    Helen Member Posts: 14 ✭✭

    Erik and Tony, I really appreciated both of your explanations on how book licensing works.  So here is my question though?  For someone who is considering replacing their paper library with and an electronic library like logos, how secure is our investment?  If I spend $1700 on a New International Commentary set with Logos, how secure is that investment?  If this is all a form of “renting”, how long do I get to keep the books?  Can the books, one day, be taken from me or my family?  Are there any actual guarantees with electronic books or do we need to hang on to our paper libraries for that?  

  • NB.Mick
    NB.Mick MVP Posts: 16,174

    Helen,

    Bob Pritchett has answered your questions in a blog post in 2008: http://blog.logos.com/2008/10/is_my_invesment_in_e-books_safe/ (note that the clarification regarding willing your library to your family is a broken link, most probably reffering to his comment http://blog.logos.com/2008/10/is_my_invesment_in_e-books_safe/#comment-3033 ) The basic takeaway is that an electronic library is more secure than a paper one.

    Mick

    Have joy in the Lord! Smile

  • Tony Thomas
    Tony Thomas Member Posts: 445 ✭✭

    I think Logos is a great company with a lot of integrity.  They have a track record of doing the right thing in the best interests of their customers.  As a result, I would not worry about your investment. 

    Director of Zoeproject 

    www.zoeproject.com

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    Helen said:

    If I spend $1700 on a New International Commentary set with Logos, how secure is that investment?  If this is all a form of “renting”, how long do I get to keep the books?

    It is not so much renting as it is leasing. You get to keep your books and even will the whole library to an heir. What you apparently can not do is buy a resource from another user and hen resell it if you decide it is not what you need. So you have to ask yourself if you want to spend $1700 on NICOTNICNT from Logos.com and have the revocable privilege of selling it or buy NICOT/NICNT off eBay for $900 and be stuck with it until you die. 

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,190 ✭✭✭✭

    Some smooth answers above, that don't include guarantees.  I remember the real estate folks even in the middle of the real estate crash.  People are always hopeful.

    1.  If it's for your job (e.g. a pastor, etc), it's a box of tools. And its lifetime warrenty is equal to Bob's health and interests.  He's previously stated that if Logos were to go belly-up, there'd be an aftermarket of support.  But this thread illustrates the license issue is the issue.  And  Bob 'could' be forced to sell out.

    2. If it's for yourself now, and then someone else later, then you take your chances.  Bob's health, publisher contracts, industry trends, and so forth.  Buy accordingly.

    3. Plus there's the spiritual aspects ... you can't share with your friends and hopefully potential or new converts.  This aspect is rather significant for non-pastors. Oddly, pastors tend to carefully stack their books on their shelves in the office, or more recently their PC, with limited sharing.  The congregation tends to 'pass books around'.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    I would not worry about your investment. 

    I would caution anyone who views Logos resources as a liquid  "investment."  Your ability to cash out your investment is seriously compromised, or even non-existent.

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Tony Thomas
    Tony Thomas Member Posts: 445 ✭✭

    I only view books as an investment in my education and personal development, not as a liquid asset.  For example, I get a lot more out of my Logos library than I would taking a handful college level courses that cost the same amount of money.  Books make lousy investments,  even paper ones.  If you have ever taken a stack of paper books to a used bookstore to sell,  you know what I mean. 

    Director of Zoeproject 

    www.zoeproject.com

  • Helen
    Helen Member Posts: 14 ✭✭

    Thanks Guys!  I feel now I have a much better understanding of how the ebook world works and it has been very helpful.  Thanks!

  • Helen
    Helen Member Posts: 14 ✭✭

    By the way ST, I understand your point about "liquid investments" and it is a good point.  But we also have to understand logos has to make a profit and pay their employees or quality will be reduced or worst case scenario, they go belly up.  The last thing we want is logos to become a trading post.  If so, all logos customers will be hurt.  

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    I only view books as an investment in my education and personal development, not as a liquid asset.

    Maybe you don't plan to spend a lot on Logos over your lifespan. I view things longer term. I was not buying Logos strictly for my short life expectancy. I was lulled into believing my library could benefit others. It was Logos past practices that swayed me. 

    I returned to Logos in 2008 by buying Scholar Silver 3.0 from a Canadian pastor. I then found a second-hand copy of Scholar Gold 3.0  for a great price. I sold my Silver license on eBay for more than I paid for the Gold license. Logos had no problem allowing me to resell the Silver license I had purchased used. I then upgraded my Gold license to Portfolio, Verbum Capstone, Reformed DiamondAnglican DiamondLutheran Gold, and Master Bundle, ver. 2, XL. All these (and another 10,000+ books) were purchased directly from Logos with no mention of a "one transfer" rule. 

    Last week I sold my rarely used SDA Bible Commentary 3.0 Expanded Edition to someone who wanted it. This is a product Logos no longer sells on their website so they are not losing a sale. When I transferred it they said once transferred, it can not be transferred again. 

    If that is not a policy change it is at least a change in practice. I want the issue of resale transfers addressed. The silence is deafening!

    Had Logos not allowed resale transfers in the past, I would not have assembled a library off 15,000+ volumes or spent upwards of $50,000 building a treasure I could pass along to others, in whole or in part. I had a multi-generational view of my Logos "investment."  

    So really I am not complaining about cash liquidity. I am upset with loss of freedom and  flexibility of my library....Silly me...It is not my library, it is Logos' library on my computer. 

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Tony Thomas
    Tony Thomas Member Posts: 445 ✭✭

    As Logos does not make money on the secondary market for their resources, it is clear that they want to limit "horse trading" as much as they can.  And it seems that is within their right as the licensor of the product.

    Director of Zoeproject 

    www.zoeproject.com

  • Tony Thomas
    Tony Thomas Member Posts: 445 ✭✭
    This explains Logos' position:

    ===============================================================================================================



    FROM:




    October 29, 2008 at 9:53 am #


    "Yes, you can pass your books to your grandchildren.

    "Logos already transfers licenses (for a small service fee) when someone needs to pass on their entire library. It’s happened when people die, or retire, or change roles in an organization. The technology doesn’t (at this point) support this directly, so it’s a bit of a hassle involving database manipulation, but we can do it.The bigger point is that electronic books are still a bit different: while you can pass your library along to someone, it’s not really like a paper library where you can loan or give an individual title to someone by just pulling it off your shelf. And while we’re happy to transfer libraries, and always want to do the right thing by our customers, we do not want to support people re-selling every $10 title in their large collection (purchased at 90% off retail) for $1 each.

    "Sorry for the confusion."

    Director of Zoeproject 

    www.zoeproject.com

  • Helen
    Helen Member Posts: 14 ✭✭

    I too wish logos could afford to allow their customers to do both buy and sale their products.  Maybe if logos was a publisher they could afford to allow their customers this freedom but they are not.  Instead they are a middle man that compiles published books into software and sales them to other people for a profit.  Publishers have to make money off the books and Logos must make sufficient money to pay their employees.  It appears to me, allowing customers unconditional rights to sale their books would cause too much of a financial squeeze on Logos. Bob has to keep logos both Spiritually and Financially sound and this may be the only way he can do that.

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 54,763

    Helen said:

    I too wish logos could afford to allow their customers to do both buy and sale their products.

    It may also be a matter of the contractual rights Logos holds - they likely are limited by contracts that only allow them to license the works.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • toughski
    toughski Member Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭

    As Logos does not make money on the secondary market for their resources, it is clear that they want to limit "horse trading" as much as they can.  And it seems that is within their right as the licensor of the product.

    first of all, you are wrong. Nobody makes money on the secondary market (car manufacturers, publishers, builders, etc), with the exception of consumers and speculators. In paper book market, "first sale" doctrine states that Right Holders have no rights to regulate how the book is handled (given away, sold, rented, etc.) after the first transaction. There was a major case a year ago with someone legally buying books overseas and re-selling them in the US. Clearly, right holders want to limit it as much as they can, but the courts said for years that they have no rights (after the "first sale").

    With digital it is a little more complicated. Amazon and Logos do control distribution. In the case of Amazon, it has always been stated "non-transferable license", however,  Logos for years maintained that we would be able to transfer our licenses. Legally, I do not believe there is a distinction between consumer wanting to will their library to an heir or to sell it to somebody else. A case can be made, that if one comes into legal possession of a license, he or she should be able to enjoy all rights and privileges of the first buyer.

  • toughski
    toughski Member Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:

    It may also be a matter of the contractual rights Logos holds - they likely are limited by contracts that only allow them to license the works.

    I am not quite sure what you mean by this. I do not believe Rights Holders have any rights beyond the first sale, so they cannot demand Logos enforcing it. On the other hand, if Logos allows any customer to transfer any collections or orders to another person, all control ultimately resides with Logos, I believe. Yes, they would not make any money on the secondary market, but it should not mean that a person who bought appropriate licenses legally should all of the sudden lose his rights to sell or transfer.

  • Tony Thomas
    Tony Thomas Member Posts: 445 ✭✭

    The secondary market for e-books is a tricky subject.  

    There is no "first sale doctrine" for e-books.  They are currently treated by the law as software and governed by licensing agreements.

    And based on this, it doesn't look like this is likely to change anytime soon:

    http://gigaom.com/2014/06/06/should-you-have-a-right-to-sell-your-ebooks-and-digital-music/

    Director of Zoeproject 

    www.zoeproject.com

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    As Logos does not make money on the secondary market for their resources, it is clear that they want to limit "horse trading" as much as they can.

    Kinda like Walmart? I feel like I am trapped in another episode of American Greed. To maximize profits:

    • Logos quit selling in Bible book stores (Zondervan, Mardel's, etc)
    • Logos squeezed out third-party resellers (Rejoice Christian Software, etc)
    • Logos quit licensing their platform to third-party publishers (IVP, Galaxie, etc)
    • Logos now wants to prevent re-sales

    This week, in response to the dollar-grab: 

    1. I have deleted all my Community Pricing orders ($7000+)
    2. I have deleted most of my Pre-Pub list ($23,000+)
    3. I have deleted almost all of my Wishlists

    Q: How is that maximizing profits working for you, Logos?

    Right now, Dave Kaplan is the only thing about Logos that makes me smile. 

    I once sat across the table from a preacher who said to me, "You know I am lying. I know I am lying. But you will never get me to admit it to anyone else."    I got sick to my stomach. That nausea has returned; not because of any lie, but because of the failure of Logos to own up to a change of practice in regards to re-saleability of licenses.  

    Bob says it is because of serial refunders and transfer abusers. But I got the email in black and white, "Once transferred, an item may not be transferred again."  If Logos wants to change business practices, I must too. I can not afford to bind all my licenses into one I can only bequeath.

     

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Tony Thomas
    Tony Thomas Member Posts: 445 ✭✭

    It is clear that Logos may not be the perfect e-book platform for everyone.  

    There are certainly other choices out there.  However, I am not sure that you will find licensing terms that are less limiting with any other company.

    And that is the rub....

    Director of Zoeproject 

    www.zoeproject.com

  • abondservant
    abondservant Member Posts: 4,796 ✭✭✭

    L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,190 ✭✭✭✭

    Uh oh.   'Serial refunders.'   

    I knew that third refund of the OT Discourse package was going to get me in big hot water.  Or those resources that didn't have Libronix equivs.  The Logos lady seemed so incredulous (though very nice).

    I sure hope I don't get a legal-beagle email like ST did.  Heaven only knows what he's been up to.  Buying $50,000 worth of books from Logos.  No wonder he got in such big trouble.  I've been more careful, spreading out my Logos purchases so Logos wouldn't notice.

    Now his star is an issue.  Transfer rights on a star.  That'd be interesting.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • David Dobbs
    David Dobbs Member Posts: 18 ✭✭

    ST, I understand your frustration.  Like you, I was doing a lot of my logos book shopping through 3rd parties.  I wanted to get the biggest bang for my buck.  What can I say, I am a frugal shopper.  But now I feel that was selfish of me.  One of the reasons we all love logos so much is because they are producing an excellent product, to say the least, and that product cost money (Lots of money and lots of man power).  I should have been willing to pay what this product was worth rather than trying to get it for free.  I now feel like I have cheated logos and a lot of hard working employees.  And so once again, I would like to say to all the logos employees, I am very sorry!  I am worried now, as a result of starting this forum, I have caused a lot of negative light to come on them and cost them money.  Also I am worried if more people do what I used to do, shop for the best price through 3rd parties, we will all get what we pay for, a cheap product that is not worth very much.   

  • Erik
    Erik Member Posts: 413 ✭✭

    It is clear that Logos may not be the perfect e-book platform for everyone.  

    There are certainly other choices out there.  However, I am not sure that you will find licensing terms that are less limiting with any other company.

    And that is the rub....

    Exactly.  Logos is by far the most generous licensor that I have come across.  That's not to say there isn't room for industry wide improvement however.  Until (and if) an industry standard format for eBooks is adopted, I don't see the situation changing.

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,190 ✭✭✭✭

    David ... I hate to mention this but some people are not exactly wealthy and buy used, so they can feed their kids.  Not trying to argue and you're welcome to feel selfish (I'm not sure of your wealth status).

    But unfortunately, if ST indeed did what he did (and we don't have proof yet), Bob may have to 'fire someone today'.  ST singularly funds a position at Logos through his immense purchasing support (not to mention his enthusiasm being far superior to anything Logos marketing can come up with).

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    And while we’re happy to transfer libraries, and always want to do the right thing by our customers, we do not want to support people re-selling every $10 title in their large collection (purchased at 90% off retail) for $1 each.

    I am selling my 40 volume NICOT/NICNT  and my 69 volume Hermeneia/Continental Commentaries. I did not buy them for 99% off and they are not selling for $1 each and there will be only two licenses to transfer. 

    I am not a seminary student, a pastor, or a missionary. I have WBC and many others that will suffice. Most of my family and friends are Independent Christian Church or Fundamentalist Baptists. They are not interested in my library. I will be a lot slower to buy any resources that I can't dispose of if I find they are not needed.

    To my best recollection, I have never sold a Logos resource to a third party until last week. (EDIT There was that Scholar Silver I sold.) I have gifted resources from my wife's account to my dad (a minister) for Father's Day. Yes, I bought my wife her own Logos package.

    Logos should have never told me my licenses were transferable if they did not intend to keep their word.

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Tony Thomas
    Tony Thomas Member Posts: 445 ✭✭

    So, what is the solution to all of this?

    Since we are buying a limited license and not a physical book, perhaps the prices should be MUCH lower.  

    I have always believed, with very few exceptions, that e-book prices should be lower than the prices of physical books. 

    Truthfully, I buy far more books from Amazon than I do from Logos these days because the prices are prohibitive.  And as I read a lot of stuff from dead guys in the public domain, the price is usually $1-3 per e-book.  

    Plus, the sale prices on many of the newer e-books I get are incredibly low compared to what Logos wants.  And there are many books on sale every week.

    I have most of the reference works I need, so my recent purchases from Logos have been few and far between.

    Would I buy more e-books from Logos if prices were lower?  Certainly.  

    Does that make any difference to Logos?  I am not really sure.  

    Director of Zoeproject 

    www.zoeproject.com

  • Erik
    Erik Member Posts: 413 ✭✭

    model

    As Logos does not make money on the secondary market for their resources, it is clear that they want to limit "horse trading" as much as they can.

    Kinda like Walmart? I feel like I am trapped in another episode of American Greed. To maximize profits:

    • Logos quit selling in Bible book stores (Zondervan, Mardel's, etc)
    • Logos squeezed out third-party resellers (Rejoice Christian Software, etc)
    • Logos quit licensing their platform to third-party publishers (IVP, Galaxie, etc)

    I look at these situations in perhaps a different light.  I certainly am not privy to Logos' licensing negotiations with publishers, but I do know that since Logos took these actions the number of resources available in Logos has increased exponentially.  Rather than "greed", it seems just as likely to me that Logos realized that the old model was not going to allow them to expand their product offerings with publishers being reluctant to have their works sold in an unsecure physical format.  The move to downloaded sales offers a greater level of security and control to make the publishers happy...and customers benefit from the increased availability of resources.  No it's not perfect, but if the choice is between the current situation and going back to limited product offerings offered on physical media, I will choose the former.  I personally see no evidence of "greed" on the part of Logos.  The legal and financial construct of what Logos does is extremely complicated and juggling the needs of the three major interests (customers, publishers, Logos) is not an easy task.  I think that Logos does this very well for the most part and although I'm in the camp that takes issue with a "one transfer" rule, I am personally not going to "jump ship" when the alternatives offer an even worse alternative.

  • Lee
    Lee Member Posts: 2,714 ✭✭✭

    I'm always wary of the use of extreme examples to justify policy. I guess it's caveat emptor.

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    I was doing a lot of my logos book shopping through 3rd parties.

    But David, I have purchased less than 1% of my library from 3rd parties. I mostly bought things that Logos no longer sells. Things like MacArthur's NT Commentaries, Bill Bright Collection, etc.  I used to be the forum pitbull when it came to others posting links to outside sales of Logos resources. (One reason some resent my MVP star.)

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    Erik said:

    and customers benefit from the increased availability of resources.

    That might explain Moody pulling all their books form Logos but leaving them in WordSearch. When I purchased the Zondervan Bible Reference Bundles 1, 2 and 3  Logos allowed license re-saleability. Should that not be grandfathered in so I can re-sell them if I choose? I believe that possibility should have been part of the negotiations.

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Erik
    Erik Member Posts: 413 ✭✭

    Erik said:

    and customers benefit from the increased availability of resources.

    That might explain Moody pulling all their books form Logos but leaving them in WordSearch. When I purchased the Zondervan Bible Reference Bundles 1, 2 and 3  Logos allowed license re-saleability. Should that not be grandfathered in so I can re-sell them if I choose? I believe that possibility should have been part of the negotiations.

    The Moody situation seems to be an outlier and seems just as likely to me to have been an issue related to royalties.  Logos' sensitivity to absorbing a specific royalty rate may in fact be much different than "the other guys" due to production cost considerations.  I don't see the Moody example as indicative of or related to the present situation.  The EULA has not changed as far as I can tell, rather this situation is a policy change that would technically be allowed under the EULA.  I'm not saying I'm in favor of such a policy, but the argument against it cannot be made from the EULA as far as I can tell. 

  • Dan Francis
    Dan Francis Member Posts: 5,341 ✭✭✭

    SuperTramp has a valid concern. His whole purchase structure may have been based on the concept when he was done with a resource he could sell it. The secondary market is going to demand fire sale pricing knowing they can never sell it. I at one time owned (for 20 days) NIC... looking over it I saw no real additional value to me, I am sure some volumes are good but reading over it for those days I did not find I was getting much value out of it and called and returned it. Had I bought it at a discounted price from someone I would be stuck with a resource that is definitely not for me. Knowing I am stuck with a resource I cannot get rid of if I don't care for it I am not likely to buy it from a secondary source unless I am 100% sure I want it. A person like myself or guessing ST who have limited incomes may well have thought I will get NIC, and if times become too tight I can sell it. But now he learns selling it is not the ideal option he had thought it might be. Perhaps even worse yet he bought something second hand he was not 100% sure of but he assumed he could sell it. I am very upset with the ethics of Christians that allowed them to feel they could or even should cheat Logos (do I think Christian works should be free YES, in an ideal world, but we do not live in some ideal Christian commune world where all is shared as each has need. Logos must abide by laws of copyright, and authors deserve to get ever penny they are entitled, lest they leave their fields to make a living elsewhere). Logos needs to protect itself from the abusers; and i will admit the secondary market cannibalizes some sales but by restricting a resource to pass only once they have severely crippled the secondary market. I do not have the answer, if Logos set up some secondary market that was automated they might get much money from transfers, but in addition to losing sales they would make the cheaters job easier. "Why have our own legal books when we can buy them lock it away them away in a virtual machine and sell them and the next student do that till the entire class has done it". That is not fair and could end up costing Logos hundreds of thousands of dollars. I have no idea if the Portfolio package was the one passed around 90 times, and I have no idea if it was students doing it (I had simply hoped that it was young people who had done such a stupid thing, as children sometimes do).

    -Dan

  • Dan Francis
    Dan Francis Member Posts: 5,341 ✭✭✭

    Erik said:

    , it seems just as likely to me that Logos realized that the old model was not going to allow them to expand their product offerings with publishers being reluctant to have their works sold in an unsecure physical format. 

    Logos is a very secure format Kindle where most everything can be purchased can be hacked into and turned into an unprotected ebook in seconds. Yet publishers do not place their books in Kindle. Publishers should be clambering to have their works in Logos because it is secure. I am not jumping ship either, but I am also less than happy to know that an option I always thought I had is less attractive.

    -Dan

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    Helen, David Dobbs, and Tony Thomas,

    You may not know me but I have been a Logos fanatic since 2008. I sold my classic cars and guitar collection (around 30 now) to buy Logos resources. I have 6 kids (out of 13) still living at home and eating ramen, hot dogs, and mac & cheese so I can buy more Logos. I have fore-gone vacations to buy more Logos.

    I  am a double-amputee and have been legally blind for the last 13 months. I am 54 and seriously doubt I make it to 70. I am not in the ministry. Some would say I am foolish to be buying Logos resources. I just took Logos at face value when they said I can transfer individual licenses. 

    Sorry for my dis-enchantment.

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    Erik said:

    but the argument against it cannot be made from the EULA as far as I can tell. 

    I agree.  I believe Logos can do it, and apparently has done it.

     I don't like the way they won't admit the change in re-saleability.  Own up to it, Bob. 

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Floyd  Johnson
    Floyd Johnson Member Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭

    [quote]

    • I have deleted all my Community Pricing orders ($7000+)
    • I have deleted most of my Pre-Pub list ($23,000+)
    • I have deleted almost all of my Wishlists

    I did this a number of months ago - for a variety of reasons:

    1. LOGOS' attitudes
    2. LOGOS' sales policies
    3. My Budget
    4. Attitudes of LOGOS fanatics
    5. etc.

    At the same time I have been buying resources from a number of other Bible software and e-book publishers.  

    Having followed this thread for several days, I am feeling more comfortable with my decision.  I have been a LOGOS user since about 2002 - but am certainly less so now.

    Blessings,
    Floyd

    Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    Q: How is that maximizing profits working for you, Logos?

    Here's another way of thinking of it. (One that has the benefit of being the truth.)

    Ending distribution -- through stores, third-party resellers, etc. -- allowed us to reduce prices. Before, if you spent $100, I got $50, and had to run the business on that. Now, if you spend $100, I get it all. The publisher (and thus author) gets twice as much in royalties (happier publishers) and I have to sell half as much to cover costs. In theory I could keep that extra $50 and roll around in a bank vault full of gold coins, but in reality what we did is produce books that otherwise couldn't have covered costs, hired more people to write more code and create more original scholarship, put more value into every box, etc. Now you get for $50 what you used to get for $100, and if you spend $100 we're using it to do more for you -- it doesn't go into a vault full of gold coins.

    Our profit margin is smaller now than it was when we sold through re-sellers. Last year our profit as a percentage of revenue was lower again, as it had been for a few years. This year it'll be lower still, based on present trends. (Don't worry for us -- it's actually intentional. We're investing in growth, new projects, and things that we hope will pay off down the road.)

    We've dramatically accelerated our library growth; we're able to get things out of pre-pub or CP with fewer unit sales. We've created lots of new content with in-house scholars, and given much more away. We're putting more value in our base packages than ever before, and continue to revise and improve old resources with new tagging and maintenance.

    I'm having an internal discussion about eliminating the 'one-transfer-only' rule. I can't guarantee I'll win that -- there may be more abuses/reasons than I'm aware of, and I need to get input from multiple people. But if we keep the license transfer fee, and possibly put different informal restrictions in place (reserving the right to refuse 'abusive' transfers -- like more than one of the same resource per week, or more than 4 transfers in a year, etc.) I think we could eliminate it.

    Again, as I repeat over and over, our only solid policy is doing the right thing for the customer, and these lightweight policies/guidelines that emerge organically over time are simply our team's response to abuse problems, and ways to 'call it out' in advance / provide a rule we can cite if/when we need to invoke it. But clearly it's offending our best customers, and we don't want that.

    If you'll all forgive some bluntness -- since nothing else seems to be able to kill this thread:

    A large investment in Logos resources is incredibly safe because we're not complete idiots. (Though it feels like it this week!) We're a business, and when you spend money with a business that wants to keep you as a customer -- as we do -- part of what you're buying is goodwill and attention. 

    If you have a large investment in Logos resources, we are going to do whatever reasonable thing you ask of us. You can will your library, transfer books, ask for and receive my personal cell number and treat me as your 24/7 tech support agent.

    Because this is a business, and you're the customer, and the best customers are treated like royalty at any business not run by idiots. And we try hard to not be idiots.

    Let's put things even more bluntly:

    There are 2,496,113 people using the Logos platform, including free and mobile apps. The majority of these people have not yet purchased anything from us, yet some use our servers, ask questions, call tech support, etc. and cost something to support. We do that in the hope they'll become paying customers (and, in some small way, as a service to the church and the greater community -- we like it when people read the Bible!).

    Something over 10% of people with Logos accounts have actually purchased something, for as little as $1. We love these people, and hope they'll buy more, but since it costs $20 to answer the phone (really -- do the math with an average salary, estimated call-length, tech, rent, healthcare, overhead, etc.) we have to be careful how much hands-on interaction we have with each customer.

    And, in a not unusual but still frustrating pattern, the lowest-spenders are often the most expensive to support. People who have more financial resources tend to be more transactional: "How much? I'll take it. Here's my credit card." (Actually, they often just buy online and take no interaction.) People with tighter resources need more time: "How much? Hmm... is there a discount? What if I bought it this way? How about I return X and Y and then buy Z for the difference? What if I...."

    Again, that's not surprising and it is very responsible on their part -- everyone needs to steward their resources carefully, and everyone has their own formula for valuing time vs. dollars. When something is relatively expensive to me, I invest more time in shopping, researching, negotiating, etc. (Unfortunately, time costs the same per hour on our end, regardless of the transaction size.)

    What's really amazing is that nearly 25% of our gross revenue comes from just 1% of the paying customers. (Not 1% of the 2.5 million users -- 1% of the just over 10% of those who pay. So 1/10th of 1% of accounts!)

    That's you! Because if you care enough to be in the forums -- if you care enough to be discussing (or even reading!) about license transfer policies -- you're probably in that 1% and we really love and appreciate you! Not only do you pay our bills and provide the income that pays our salaries, feeds, clothes, and houses our families -- you're the people who use our tools every week!

    So you can have whatever you want. We will do anything to make you happy. 

    Please remember, though, that when the phone rings, or an email goes into customer service, even if it's from a paying customer, there is a 99 out of 100 chance that it's from someone who generates very little income for us. And some of those people not only generate little income, they're very expensive to support, and essentially you're subsidizing our support of them -- we have to cover costs, and you generate the most revenue!

    There are solutions: we could tier our support. We could have a hotline for the best customers. We could make the phone ring a different tone when big spenders call.

    This isn't unusual. It's the 'platinum level' of an airline frequent flyer club. It's the VIP program at a car rental company. It's just standard good business.

    And maybe someday we'll do that. But for now, we still want to be awesome for everybody. We want to offer excellent service to all our customers. It's who we want to be, and how we want to be, and we think it's good business. We want a great reputation for great service. We want 'not so profitable customers' to become 'very profitable customers', and we think that hiding our best service effort behind a VIP hotline isn't the best way to earn those new great customers.

    However, 'everybody' is a big list of not (yet) that profitable customers, and it also includes the super-creative discount seekers, system exploiters, and rare (but sadly still common) outright abusers, as I've explained earlier. So we have these loose policies we can quote back when necessary, and which we sometimes promulgate up front to discourage people from trying to exploit the system. And sometimes we accidentally grow 'rules' that become a little less flexible on the front line than they should be. (That's why we're open door, and quick to respond to any 'appeal' by a customer.)

    Now maybe we've outgrown this system. Maybe our recent success at bringing on more free and low-revenue customers (part of our attempt to grow our market) has forced us to sound more policy-ruled than we actually are. Maybe we really do need to start segmenting our customer service experience between low and high-end customers. Maybe I am just an idiot, trying to walk too fine a line between 'enough policies to stay safe and enough flexibility to stay awesome,' and foolish to think that 'trust me' is a good enough answer for my best customers. Maybe it's time to publish a big book of rules and promises that we can quote at each other. (Which would make me sad.)

    And maybe it's a waste of time, trying to explain/defend our thinking in such detail. 

    This thread is a real wake-up call. I am crushed to think that Super Tramp is canceling future orders -- to the tune of an annual salary! -- because of a single statement we made about a policy we only enforce sporadically, when needed, and would never apply to an incredible customer like him.

    Clearly that wasn't a good investment, and cost us far more than it saved, just with one user -- and who knows how many others of you reading this and not posting...

    So we'll take this to heart, discuss changes in our operations, and try even harder to earn your trust and knock down 'policy' growth.

    But I hope you'll take from this, if nothing else, that none of this is about 'maximizing profits' or 'greed'. It's about the everyday challenge of staying in business when you're balancing the needs of 2.5 million low-revenue users against the different needs of the few thousand people who pay the bills.

    -- Bob

  • David Dobbs
    David Dobbs Member Posts: 18 ✭✭

    ST, I apologize if I have offended you.  I do understand your dilemma better now.  You have invested heavily into logos, probably more than any of us.  If I had invested that much; I think I would be more upset too.  I think you are justified in your argument.