Chinese: point and click --Problem

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Posts 34
Matt | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Sep 24 2014 10:04 PM

I'm new to the Logos 5 forum as I've just upgraded to the Logos 5 engine. I have a lengthy post in the Logos 4 forum [here] on creating a Chinese dictionary in personal books. I constructed a character dictionary in personal books using "Creative Commons" data; I have now been testing this dictionary for a year in Logos 4. It works well at the single character level. I could POINT to any character in my Chinese Bible and its corresponding dictionary entry with pronunciation guide appeared in the "Information Panel" of Logos (Logos 4). I could double-click the character and the dictionary opened to that character entry in a separate tab. In Logos 5 this dictionary no longer functions properly. Argh!

The point and click selection method in Chinese books in Logos 5 has changed its functionality dramatically. When I point at a Chinese character and right-click in Logos 5, it has arbitrary and weird results. Some multi-character words (like 耶和華 or 上帝, Ge. 2:15) are now correctly selected as a unit. But other multi-character words (especially multi-character names like 古實 = "Cush" or 基訓 = "Gihon", Ge. 2:13) only selects each character separately. Again right-clicking some single character words results in grouping unrelated words (like 第三 or 名叫, Gen. 2:14). In the previous example, it could be argued that the two words form a grammatical unit, but each also retains its individual meaning. In order to select the individual word in these cases, it is necessary to left-click and highlight the individual character, then right-click and select the resource from the menu to open up the dictionary. These words will not automatically appear in the "Information Panel." The only words that will automatically appear in the "Information Panel" when I point at them are words that can be selected as a single character by right-clicking (for instance 道, Gen. 2:13).

This behavior is the same in all my Chinese resources, even personal books, so it is not resource specific. With the arbitrariness of this behavior I don't know how I will be able to make a dictionary function properly.

If anyone is interested in playing with my dictionary I will post the file below. You will need to compile it in your personal books. It is for use with CUVNP Bible Traditional Script.

1651.RLexCB-T.zip

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 24 2014 10:06 PM

It would appear that the fault lies in the dictionary/lexicon. I don't think any resource is available right now that could do what you're describing with even 80% accuracy.

Then again, 第三 and 名叫 are arguably separate lexemes or dictionary entries. It depends how fine you want to cut it.

Posts 34
Matt | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 26 2014 1:06 AM

It did work perfectly under Logos 4. They've changed the way it functions in a rather arbitrary way. That is the point of my post. I'm just wondering if someone can shed some light on how they intend it to function so that someone CAN make some resources.

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 26 2014 3:51 AM

Do you mean that in Logos 4 the Chinese lexemes were broken up appropriately? I didn't know the program could do that.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 26 2014 4:51 AM

Matt:
This behavior is the same in all my Chinese resources, even personal books, so it is not resource specific. With the arbitrariness of this behavior I don't know how I will be able to make a dictionary function properly.

This conversation is well beyond me... 

I wonder if there is any connection to the "smart select" feature. I tried looking that up in the wiki, but could not find anything. Ugh. Tongue Tied

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 26 2014 4:54 AM

OK. I did find something out about this... but I honestly have no idea anything about this feature, nor about your question. This is a stab in the dark. Try turning "smart text selection" off in the settings menu. 

Also see this thread: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/76157.aspx 

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Posts 34
Matt | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 29 2014 7:56 PM

Sorry, I've been away for a few days.

I checked my settings and "smart text selection" is already set to "off". I turned it on to see if anything changed--No.

Previously in Logos 4. Selecting text in a Chinese version or resource was limited, but straightforward: point & right-click always selected one character. Obviously this is problematic since many Chinese words are two or more characters. That was the point of my post in the Logos 4 forum. After working at it, I was able to construct a "Character Dictionary" (i.e. a dictionary looking up individual characters). Now however it is more difficult to access both a "character dictionary" and a "word dictionary" (containing multi-character words). This is my frustration.

I saw somewhere on a forum post that Logos has hired a Chinese consultant of some kind, so I assume that the technology for the Chinese in Logos is still evolving. It's a shame that what did work consistently under Logos 4 is less functional under Logos 5.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 29 2014 8:04 PM

Matt:
It's a shame that what did work consistently under Logos 4 is less functional under Logos 5.

This issue is well beyond me... Logos will need to chime in. I am not sure what has changed, but the base of L5 is just an evolution of L4... so I am not sure what changed.

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 30 2014 5:17 AM

I don't know much about the dictionary you've set up. Your frustration is that it should "just work".

Are the faulty word breaks wired into the dictionary? I could be wrong, but I don't believe that Logos has implemented anything that would actually impose their Chinese word breaks.

Posts 34
Matt | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 1 2014 2:47 AM

I'll need to give it some more thought and experimentation. Like I said, I just upgraded to Logos 5, so I really haven't had time to evaluate these changes adequately. They may turn out to be an improvement after all.

In response to Lee's comment, there really are substantive changes in the way Logos divides the Chinese text. Previously under Logos 4 and before, there were no multi-character words--each character was an individual unit. Now some characters are combined into words and some aren't. There may be a reasonable explanation for these changes that will actually improve the usability of the Chinese in the Logos environment. Or it may be that there are changes still in progress that have not yet been completely and uniformly implemented. So I'll keep examining and evaluating the new way it functions.

Example: Josh. 10:2a reads, 就甚懼怕. Under Logos 4 this would have been divided into 4 single character units. However Logos 5 correctly divides this phrase into three units: \ 就 \ 甚 \ 懼怕 \. However in the next phrase the name 基遍 [Gibeon] is not combined but divided into two units: \ 基 \ 遍 \. As I noted in the top post, it appears to be primarily some names (place names, personal names, etc.) that are still not recognized as lexical units. Maybe that is a change that is still coming.

I am starting to warm up to this new functionality. --All right, it is time to eat crow-- Maybe the change is good. My Chinese dictionary resource still functions, just not as well and it requires more work to get the information out of it. Now I'll need to revise the dictionary to include multi-character words so it regains all of its functionality. More work. <Sigh>

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 1 2014 6:56 AM

Matt:

Example: Josh. 10:2a reads, 就甚懼怕. Under Logos 4 this would have been divided into 4 single character units. However Logos 5 correctly divides this phrase into three units: \ 就 \ 甚 \ 懼怕 \. However in the next phrase the name 基遍 [Gibeon] is not combined but divided into two units: \ 基 \ 遍 \. As I noted in the top post, it appears to be primarily some names (place names, personal names, etc.) that are still not recognized as lexical units. Maybe that is a change that is still coming.

The functionality that you describe is very interesting. It could be keyed to some Reverse Interlinear database, I suspect, hence you have "words“ like 第三 = ?third. I would not depend on it just yet though. When it comes to Chinese keywords even a giant like Google took years before they got it right.

Posts 34
Matt | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 1 2014 7:01 PM

Lee:
I would not depend on it just yet though. When it comes to Chinese keywords even a giant like Google took years before they got it right.

The only thing that never changes is "change." Computers and software will always change and evolve. Sometimes the changes are good and improve the user experience. Sometimes the changes are bad and only profit the software company.

This change (although still not completely consistent) is an improvement. With this functionality I will be able to construct a true 詞典 (ci2 dian3, word dictionary). The lexicon I have now is only a 字典 (zi4 dian3, character dictionary). Give me a few months; I'll try to create and post a new Chinese-English dictionary as a personal book for others to use as well.

With current functionality in Logos 5, the point-and-right-click, point-and-auto-lookup, and point-and-doubleclick functions will select the Chinese grammatical "word" (a single or multiple character word unit). To lookup a single character contained within a multi-character word will require an extra step. (1) Select the single character; (2) right-click; (3) select the dictionary resource from the menu. This will open the dictionary in a separate tab and jump directly to the character entry.

It would be nice if Logos would add a shortcut method to select the single character out of a multiple character word: for instance, CTR-right-click to select the single character. I'm wishin' and dreamin' ... maybe someone from Logos development will read this.

As an English-speaking student of Chinese, my main problem in reading the Chinese Bible is coming across characters that I don't know how to pronounce. Usually you can figure out the meaning (approximately) from the context. This dictionary lookup is helpful to me because it enables me to mouse-point at a character as I'm reading and have the pronunciation (as well as the gloss) appear in the "information window" of Logos. This saves me from the necessity of stopping to look up a character in my print Chinese-English dictionary (requiring several minutes). If you get into a section with lots of unfamiliar characters (geneologies!) this slows you down dramatically.

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 1 2014 7:07 PM

There are Chinese bibles with pinyin. Googling will uncover quite a few. This is one example: http://www.aizhu.com/BIBLE/SCROLL.HTM  Don't be too discouraged if you find some terms incomprehensible. Many of the old terms and archaic phrasing are incomprehensible even to a native speaker. That's just how the text is.

Posts 34
Matt | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 2 2014 5:04 PM

Thanks for your input!Smile

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