Just made the leap to Silver

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Posts 323
Doug | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 9:40 AM

I was planning to check the NAC this morning to see what it offered on the first 13 verses of 1 Corinthians chapter 10 but there is no NAC on 1 Corinthians.  So, I can't give an evaluation yet.  However, upon reading more of the Holman Commentary on this passage, I really like it.  Again, it is just worded very clearly and treats the text very well. 

The only issue I may have concerns a debate that we have in our church fellowship about whether or not one can lose one's salvation.  Some believe we can, others believe we can't.  Those who think we can cite what Jesus said in the book of Revelation about people's names being blotted out of the book of life.  They say you cannot have your name in there unless you are saved, so to have it blotted out means you have lost that salvation.  Others think (just as the author of the Holman Commentary on 1 Cor states) that if you are truely saved,  you cannot lose that.  Those who turn back on the Lord were never really His to start with (as I think is supported in 1 John).  I think either position can be supported with Scripture, so some of our understanding is off somewhere because you can't have it both ways. 

Anyway, it's a great commentary regardless.

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 11:38 AM

Douglas, there is very little information given in the scriptures about the book of life, but some people believe that every person that has ever lived has their name written in the book  when they were born, and that Revelation records the blotting out of those names that did not believe in Christ.

If such was the case, this would not be showing believers losing their salvation at all.

In Christ,

Jim

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 12:40 PM

Guys,

Can I ask (as a newbie) where in Revelation it says: "peoples names are blotted out who did not believe in Christ"

I have (thanks to basic search) 5 references to the "book of life" from the ESV, all from Revelation and the only reference to "blotting" is that Jesus promises NEVER to blot  his sheep's name out of the book of life...

 

Can you point me to the passage you're discussing?

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 376
Dan Sheppard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 1:44 PM

DouglasEStephens:
The only issue I may have concerns a debate that we have in our church fellowship about whether or not one can lose one's salvation.  Some believe we can, others believe we can't. 

 

Douglas,

The issue you bring up is apostasy.  It is the unforgiveable sin.  The sin against the Holy Spirit. 

Basically, it is rejection of the Holy Spirit.  The case can be made, that those who feign belief, but continue to live a life of blatent sin, are in mortal danger.  This goes to the aspect of the unrepentant sinner.

Various definitions in the dictionaries on Logos, revolve around the idea of falling away, or defection of the faith.

 

A. Initial Apostasy in Israel (2 Kgs 17:7–12).
After God had delivered his people from the oppression in Egypt, they had taken up the worship of other gods.
Smith, J. E. (1995). The books of history. Joplin, Mo.: College Press.

 

The Book of Jude is a good place to read about what leads to apostasy:

As stated in Jude 18-19, these intruders (a) scoffed (cf. vv. 10-15), (b) followed their own ungodly desires (cf. v. 16) and mere natural instincts (cf. vv. 10, 16), and (c) sought to divide believers. Such men obviously did not have the Holy Spirit and thus were not born again (Rom. 8:9).
Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures. Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

 

Some Will Depart from the Faith
4 Now xthe Spirit expressly says that yin later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to zdeceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of aliars whose consciences are seared, 3 bwho forbid marriage and crequire abstinence from foods dthat God created eto be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For feverything created by God is good, and gnothing is to be rejected if it is ereceived with thanksgiving, 5 for it is made holy hby the word of God and prayer.
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001. Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

Finally, Zondervan's Dictionary  has a whole list of places to check:

apostasy, dealing with personal
Individual believers can fall away from faith and be restored. Scripture gives examples of such falling away, and offers advice on how such people should be dealt with pastorally.
Warnings of the dangers of personal apostasy
2Co 11:2-3 See also Ps 125:4-5; Lk 9:59-62; Gal 3:1-3; 4:8-10 Those who return to strict observance of Jewish days and festivals have not understood the gospel.
Warnings against leading others into apostasy
Mt 18:6 See also Pr 28:10; Gal 5:7-10
Encouragements to guard against personal apostasy
1Co 10:12-13; Heb 3:12-14 See also Ps 85:8; Mt 24:10-13,24-25 pp Mk 13:22-23; Col 1:21-23; 1Ti 6:20-21; Heb 10:35-39; 12:1-8; 2Pe 3:17-18; Rev 13:5-10
Dealing with apostate believers
Gal 6:1 See also 1Co 5:4-5; Jas 5:19-20; 1Jn 5:16-17
Examples of those who were restored from apostasy
Samson: Jdg 16:20,28-30
Ps 51:1-17 David
Peter: Mt 26:74 pp Mk 14:72 pp Lk 22:61-62 pp Jn 18:27 for the account of Peter’s reinstatement see Jn 21:15-17
Ac 15:37-38 for evidence of John Mark’s recovery see 2Ti 4:11
The punishment of apostates
Isa 65:12-15; Eze 3:20; 18:24-26; 2Th 2:11-12; 2Pe 2:17
Punishment through misfortune Dt 28:63; Am 2:4-6
Punishment through defeat Nu 14:43; Jdg 2:12-15
Punishment through rejection 2Ch 24:20; Hos 4:6
Manser, M. H. (1999). Zondervan Dictionary of Bible Themes. The Accessible and Comprehensive Tool for Topical Studies. Grand Rapids, MI: ZondervanPublishingHouse.

 

Hope this helps!!

 

Dan

 

Posts 103
Tim Hogan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 1:46 PM

Hey friend,

maybe it's that they are looking that ps. 9:5 and ps. 69:28 are pointing to rev. 3:5 as that which is implied. Thus an inference. I don't know, but I need to leave now and find them, yeah sun. night :)

Robert keep hanging tight in these forums, you're always a big help,

tim

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 1:51 PM

Dan Sheppard:

The issue you bring up is apostasy.  It is the unforgiveable sin.  The sin against the Holy Spirit. 

Basically, it is rejection of the Holy Spirit. 

 

Ok....newbie Q #2; Where is this stated in the word? Big Smile

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 2:09 PM

Robert Pavich:
Ok....newbie Q #2; Where is this stated in the word

Mark 3:23 29 (oops!) cf. Luke 12:10... of course there is some contention over how to interpret these passages. I won't bother making myself a flame target, have fun studying them!

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 2:17 PM

Mark 3:23 (ESV)
23 And he called them to him and said to them in parables, “How can Satan cast out Satan?

Luke 12:10 (ESV)
10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

 

Hmm....the first one....I just don't even see as relevant...the second passage would really have to have a lot read into it for it to mean "you can be saved but after that you can lose your salvation if you reject Christ after that"...

 

Especially in the face of point blank statements such as John 6:35

John 6:37 (ESV)
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

 

Based on the grammar of that passage and the strong negations by Jesus; and considering that the subject matter is; losing salvation...it would seem that those other passages take a back seat in dealing with the statement that was made about the Holy Spirit and the fact that you can lose your salvation AFTER God justifies you...

 

Just a newbie look at those passages..thanks for the stimulation. Big Smile

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 2:20 PM

Robert Pavich:
Hmm....the first one....I just don't even see as relevant

That's because it isn't relevant... the typo monster strikes again! I've edited my original post.

Posts 323
Doug | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 2:27 PM

Robert Pavich:
I have (thanks to basic search) 5 references to the "book of life" from the ESV, all from Revelation and the only reference to "blotting" is that Jesus promises NEVER to blot  his sheep's name out of the book of life...

Rev 3:5 is the passage I was referring to.  If you look closely, Jesus says the one who conquers will not have his name blotted out.  This implies that the one who doesn't conquer will have his/her name blotted out.  Now, maybe the (church) people he is referring to there were never really saved at all.  He says they have the reputation for being alive but He finds their works to be incomplete in the sight of God.  So, some use this to make the claim that you can lose your salvation. 

For those who wish to join in on this discussion, please keep it civil (everyone has so far but someone was worried about being flamed).  I'm really not making the claim either way.  I can see both sides.  I just find it to be an interesting debate. 

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 2:29 PM

DouglasEStephens:
For those who wish to join in on this discussion, please keep it civil (everyone has so far but someone was worried about being flamed).

 

Better yet, move it to a new thread, so people will know what they are getting into, unless you are infereing that not buying Scholar's silver will result in loss of salvation Stick out tongue

 

 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 2:35 PM

Douglas,

I had seen that one but the wording was a little different so I wondered if I was at the right place:

 

Revelation 3:5 (ESV)
The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

That seems like a statement of fact, and nothing is really implied beyond that, except to say that this is one way for Jesus to emphatically RESTATE what He said in John 6: the one who comes, will not be cast out....

To assume that the inverse "Christians who were once justified but now are "un-justified" by their refusal to believe" doesn't seem to be more than that...an assumption....

 

Anyway...good conversation... Big Smile

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 2:37 PM

Kevin Becker:

Robert Pavich:
Hmm....the first one....I just don't even see as relevant

That's because it isn't relevant... the typo monster strikes again! I've edited my original post.

Whoops!!

 

Kevin Becker:
Better yet, move it to a new thread, so people will know what they are getting into, unless you are infereing that not buying Scholar's silver will result in loss of salvation Stick out tongue

 

Oh man...that's why I upgraded to Gold!!

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 2:40 PM

Kevin,

Quote:

Mark 3:28–30 (ESV)
28 “Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— 30 for they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”

 

It would seem like these passages are a good reason to study...thanks!

god bless to you all...

bob

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 3915
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 3:10 PM

. . . and if you upgrade to Portfolio, you will have enough resources to teach you how to never lose . . . . another book on salvation again . . .

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 235
Tom Geswein | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 3:15 PM

Terry Poperszky:

...unless you are infereing that not buying Scholar's silver will result in loss of salvation Stick out tongue

So for $300 to upgrade to Silver, I can guarantee my salvation?  Sounds like a good deal to me - thanks for your advice!  Surprise

"It seems our problems solve themselves when we look beyond us to those truly in hell."  -  Beyond Our Suffering - AILD

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 3:19 PM

Robert, I believe your question was directed at me, concerning Rev. ... where does it say that unbelievers names were blotted out.

However, I never said Revelation says that, I only mentioned that some believers think the verse in Revelation is speaking about unbelievers names being blotted out not about believers namees being blotted out! 

I also stated there is very little actual information in the scripture concerning this plotting out.

 I was making the point that from the information given it is hard to know for sure who's names where in the book to start with.

However, I do know how they come to this conclusion.  They compare Rev 3:5 with I John 5:4-5.  

 Rev 3:5 He who overcomes ishall be clothed in white garments, and I will not jblot out his name from the kBook of Life; but lI will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

1 John 5:4-5

4 For fwhatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that ghas overcome the world— 1our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but hhe who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Notice the same person wrote both books and he tells them who will not be blotted out,...Overcomers and he defines who an Overcomer is as one who believes in Jesus!

Just to help me understand, your point are you saying believers will be blotted out?

In Christ,

Jim

 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 3:45 PM

Jim,

No...I'm not saying that they will be blotted out...just the opposite. I think; from the evidence that the idea that one can be "blotted out" after being justified is shaky at best...

I was actually responding to someone else..but no matter...I was probably mixing both of you up! Big Smile

 

I was saying that all evidence doesn't seem to be created equal.

The passage from John 6 is:

Relevant to the subject (salvation, saving, persevering)

It's clear

there are no ambigous sticking points...

 

On the other hand, a lot seems to have to be inferred in the other passages to have them say what people want them to say....

 

I think we agree....  Big Smile

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 323
Doug | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2010 4:20 PM

Thanks to everyone who responded.  I would just like to say that this is something that I have personally debated (to myself from the Scriptures) for some time.  I think the weight of the evidence from Scripture seems to support the fact that if you have genuinely been saved, that salvation is secure.  After all, it was based on what Jesus did, and not what I did.  However, we have had some people in the church who want to live like devils and still claim to be okay with God.  That's what opened up the debate in our church.  I really don't think that someone who lives that way has genuinely been saved.  I know that people mess up and that no one is perfect.  However, if a person has been genuinely saved, I think we should see the fruit of that in the person's life.  If there is no fruit, there is no life in the tree . . . that kind of thing.  I'm sorry for hijacking my own thread, maybe I should have put this on page 34 of that other thread. 

Back to the original point.  I really think the upgrade to Silver was worth the money.  Also, I have just spent about an hour reading though the NAC commentary on 1 Timothy.  It is quit a bit more wordy than the Holman commentaries but it's probably because it's coming from a slightly higher scholarly point of view.  I'm not saying the Holman is not scholarly, just that their approach is more explanatory of the point of the text, rather than covering every word or point.  Anyway, it's still a pretty good help and if used properly, I can see a benefit to owning  it.  Again, I'm sorry for changing the subject earlier.  Thanks to everyone for keeping it civil. 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 11 2010 2:09 AM

DouglasEStephens:
After all, it was based on what Jesus did, and not what I did.

 

Amen!

DouglasEStephens:
Back to the original point.  I really think the upgrade to Silver was worth the money.  Also, I have just spent about an hour reading though the NAC commentary on 1 Timothy.

 

FWIW, I like the NAC commentaries myself, and I don't think that you'll be disappointed with the Silver upgrade...I think that every level has things that might not appeal to us (at first) but a lot of times I find myself getting good info from them...

 

God bless brother.

bob

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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