What Version Is Vine's Keyed to? How to Change?

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THEODORE VANCE | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Oct 9 2014 5:56 PM

I Thought that Vine's Complete Ex Dict was a list of KJV words with corresponding Greek & Hebrew meanings.  But what I have is not KJV. I have no idea what it is or if I can change it.  The words sodomist & prostitute are not to be found though surely they are KJV words.  What a lot of frustrating waste of time. And I see no way to email tech support.

Posts 533
Nord Zootman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 9 2014 6:08 PM

I don't think Vines is a complete list of all King James words. Sodomist does not appear in the KJV and prostitute appears only once and that is as a verb (Lev. 19:29).

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 9 2014 6:43 PM

That'd be 'sodomite'  (a member of the Sodom tribe). DEU2317 1KI1424 1KI1512 1KI2246 2KI2307 In Vines, it gets picked up under the major heading of 'Holy':

Another noun, qadesh, means “temple-prostitute” or “sodomite”: “There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel” (Deut. 23:17). The noun is found 11 times.  

Plus the verb 'prostitute' refers to the male in a moneymaking adventure.  Are you thinking of 'harlot' (quite common).

Separate:  I agree with your comment back in July that it should be easy to dump your library out, whichever columns are desired.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 9 2014 7:10 PM

Sorry, you got gypped.  The KJV  has 10,867 unique words in the OT and 6, 063 in the NT.  You could add up the Apocrypha to tally up 6,758.  The whole KJV Bible has a total of 14,568 unique words, although figures vary.   Actually Mr. Vine didn't include a lot, 'cuz his "complete expository dictionary" only has a little over 6,000 words.    Perhaps "complete" refers to expository and not words

Sorry.  But you can probably get a refund.  Personally, I don't want a refund.  Even if Bill Mounce says Nave was wrong here and there and that his own dictionary is better, still I like Nave's if for no other reason than I cut my teeth on it.   Bill's book claims to be complete also, but I bet a plug nickel it isn't.  I use both to be safe.  

Note:  I didn't count words myself, I took the Internet's word for it.

Wait.  There is more.  My whole Logos library (medium-sized) only turned up "sodomist" in the Miriam Webster Dictionary, so it's a word all right.  Sodomists/sodomistic show up in Faithlife Bible, a few times in Tozer and in Themelios.  "Prostitute" is a tad more ubuquitous and unlike sodomist actually occurs in the KJV one time.  But both are iniquitous.        

  

Posts 15
THEODORE VANCE | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 11 2014 11:34 AM

 "There shall be no  prostitute of the daughters of Israel, neither shall there be a  sodomite of the sons of Israel."  ASV.  Sorry, my mistake.  I thought the KJV was the same on that verse.  But the problem is not these specific words so much as my Vine's not seeming to be keyed to the KJV.  My Vine's also doe not list "sodomite."  I wanted Unger's opinion on the meaning of the word in Hebrew.  KJV uses whore instead of prostitute.

So I wonder if somehow Logos has fixed it so that Vines can be keyed to any other translation.  This has nothing to do with Naves.  But I can't do much of anything with my Vine's module, as the search is going nowhere when I put something in the box & hit enter

Posts 15
THEODORE VANCE | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 11 2014 11:38 AM

Don't blame Vine.  I don't think Vine did the OT part of this -- maybe he did do a little on the OT, but only a little. I think Unger did the OT.  I never had any problem using Vine's NT Dictionary.  It was easy to use & convenient for NT.  But I am wasting a lot of time in frustration with this Logos module. So you are saying that the Complete is not complete?  Vot der Dumboozle.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 11 2014 1:28 PM

THEODORE VANCE:

Don't blame Vine.  I don't think Vine did the OT part of this -- maybe he did do a little on the OT, but only a little. I think Unger did the OT.  I never had any problem using Vine's NT Dictionary.  It was easy to use & convenient for NT.  But I am wasting a lot of time in frustration with this Logos module. So you are saying that the Complete is not complete?  Vot der Dumboozle.

Logos has the title Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. As far as I know it has the same content as any paper book of that title. I believe it is called Vine's "Complete" dictionary because it is not Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. "Complete" here refers to the complete corpus of Vine's work in this area (i.e., both OT & NT), not that it encompasses a complete list of all OT & NT words.

Logos does offer several lexicons of this type, some larger and some smaller. Are you looking for suggestions for alternatives to Vine's, and if so, what are you looking for specifically (as well as what are you not interested in)?

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 11 2014 10:51 PM

There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what Vines is - it is a lexicon, a dictionary and as such should not be tied to any particular translation although date and linguistic theory make some closer or farther from a particular translation. If you want something keyed to a particular translation and containing all the words you are looking for a concordance.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 15
THEODORE VANCE | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 12 2014 11:59 AM

I have owned Vine's Expository NT Dictionary for years.  This is what it is:

A list of King James Bible Headwords in alphabetical order.  It is a Greek dictionary keyed to KJV words.  You find your KJV word and then under it are the Greek words behind the KJV translation, with a definition of each Greek word corresponding.  There are even overlapping multiple entries when several KJV words are used to translate one Greek word.

Nelson published a work largely edited by Unger on the OT, which complements Vine.  Then someone combined the two into one volume & stuck Vine's name on the combined work.  This I bought with Logos; but I found it did not work until I set my preferred version (globally) in Logos to KJV.  Now it works. But it is not complete.  It does not cover all the KJV Bible words in Headwords, and I have found it tricky to find your original language Hebrew word, in this case the word the KJV translates as "sodomist."  I finally found it mentioned.  As I recall it was under the entry for holy!   As apparently the word is derived from "holy" (QDSh), as shrine/temple prostitutes were holy to the idol.

Posts 32
EnochBethany | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 12 2014 12:10 PM

The Basic problem with the "Complete" title appears to lie with the publisher who gave it that name.  It is not complete.  I suppose that Logos must use the publisher's name if Logos will see it.  However, Logos ought to prominently warn the buyer that it is not complete.  In any case, the work is still worth buying.

The question is not whether or not an author should list the KJV words of the Bible & then give Greek & Hebrew definitions (instead of listing Greek & Hebrew words themselves as headwords).  The question is what in fact is this product.  Vine isn't alive so that you could rebuke him for doing this.  I think it is great that he did do this for persons who don't know Greek & Hebrew.  And those who do know Gk & Heb, can certainly still use this.

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 12 2014 11:59 PM

THEODORE VANCE:
And I see no way to email tech support.

https://www.logos.com/contact

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

Posts 64
Larry Quinlan | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 13 2014 12:20 AM

In the past, I, too, had difficulty locating the KJV word in Vine’s. Here’s how I solved it:

1) Link Vine’s to Strong's Enhanced Lexicon.

2) Right click on the target word in the KJV Bible and open it in Strong’s.

3) Since Vine’s is linked to Strong’s it will open to the section in Vine’s where the original language word is located.

Note: The location in Vine’s may or may not be the same as the English word in the KJV, but it will never-the-less take you to Vine’s definition / explanation / opinion of the original language word that was translated into the KJV English word.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 13 2014 12:38 AM

THEODORE VANCE:
But it is not complete

Here is what M. Unger says in the Foreword to the OT part (my emphasis in bold):-

"The Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament will be a useful tool in the hands of the student who has little or no formal training in the Hebrew language.

...

Yet is is fair to say that an up-to-date expository dictionary that makes a happy selection of the more meaningful Hebrew words of the Old Testament will open up a treasure house of truth contained in the Hebrew Bible. It can offer a tremendous boon to the meaningful study of Scripture."

THEODORE VANCE:
 It does not cover all the KJV Bible words in Headwords, and I have found it tricky to find your original language Hebrew word, in this case the word the KJV translates as "sodomist."

If want coverage of the words (as Headwords) used in the KJV go for "New Strong's Guide to Bible Words". But "sodomist: is not used in the KJV versions (1769, 1873, 1900) used by Logos, nor in this Guide!

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 32
EnochBethany | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 13 2014 9:00 AM

I suppose that serious Bible students have no interest in anything called "Strong's";  they will be consulting Hebrew Lexicons like the classic Brown-Driver-Briggs or Halot (etc.).  

Now as to your advised method (thanks) can you prove that it works by actually using it to find what the KJV word sodomite means?  You need to go from sodomist to qadesh and find qadesh explained in this meaning by the "Complete Vine's."  Let me know if you are successful by your method .

Hebrew word קדש

Posts 32
EnochBethany | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 13 2014 9:04 AM

Deut 23:17 

 17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.

Whatever the introduction says to Vine's "Complete," how would anyone know that before buying the module?  This item should be clearly marked by Logos as not complete, though I suppose no one will be hurt by buying it, but they may be disappointed & waste time trying to figure out why they can't find some word.

Posts 32
EnochBethany | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 13 2014 9:13 AM

Yes, the KJV word is sodomite, not sodomist (easy slip on which to make a typo or goof).  The American Standard Version of 1901 changed sodomite to sodomist, probably because the term was used not for a person born in Sodom, but a person who acts like one (figurative extension).

 But the variation between sodomite & sodomist is not the real problem.  For if one goes to where sodomist would be in Vine's, one doesn't find it of course, but one should find sodomite (ideally) -- and sodomite is not a head word; yet it is just the kind of thing one would like a Hebrew professor's opinion on (does it mean really a sodomist, person who practices sodomy?  Or does it mean only a Temple/shrine prostitute?

Posts 32
EnochBethany | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 13 2014 9:17 AM

From what you posted, it would appear that your Logos library is badly defective! LOL.  You must not have the great translation, the American Standard Version of 1901.  Is this a freeby on Biblia.com?

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 13 2014 9:41 AM

EnochBethany:
You must not have the great translation, the American Standard Version of 1901.

Who is "you"? [I can figure out who you were talking to, but it is helpful if you were to help us out a bit. Either press the "quote button" or better yet, select some text and THEN press the button... you will get the result you see in this post]

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