Attn Faithlife: Coming Massive Update

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 15 2014 6:47 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

As soon as the download starts, exit Logos.

The indexer will keep running in the background; it will download your resources, prepare your library, and index it. In the morning, restart Logos and you'll be ready to go.

Unfortunately my experience is that Logos will finish the download this way, but Logos needs to be restarted to actually add these downloads to the library, and this then starts the indexer...

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Orthodox Silver, Lutheran Starter, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 16 2014 2:02 AM

Ken McGuire:
Unfortunately my experience is that Logos will finish the download this way, but Logos needs to be restarted to actually add these downloads to the library, and this then starts the indexer...

The trick is exiting Logos, as Bradley says. If Logos is closed, adding/indexing will automatically start after the download. If Logos is open, it won't.

Posts 1697
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 16 2014 8:31 AM

Denise:
I really wish the Logos team, the mobile team, and the Libronix team (me)  would get their strategic heads on straight (mine is pointing forward).

I'm not sure I can keep track of all your teams, and what they're doing, :-), especially since inside Faithlife, we're just one team. I'm not sure who all these other people are....

The basic idea has always been to keep things that have to go together together. I can deliver some things in pieces, but some things have to be paired: If I have a book with multiple editions, and a data set that says "character positions 1023-1031 are tagged 'proper noun'", I can't deliver those things separately without a high-risk of being out of sync, and creating lots of confusion for users and us. So we deliver those things together.

The Libronix idea of letting you choose which components to install was insanity -- it was like letting you order a car, and letting you choose which engine parts to have installed. Only nobody knew which parts did what, or had the information required to make smart decisions. (And in most cases all the parts were required anyway.) So people would randomly drop parts they didn't understand, and the car wouldn't run right. It wasn't like letting you choose cloth or leather seats, or regular or premium radio -- we were letting you choose to have the spark plugs or engine pistons installed or not. 

In mobile, it's actually monolithic. The entire app is completely re-installed at every upgrade. The choice you perceive -- of updating books -- is only possible because we don't offer any cross-book functionality, or most of the features that work with data outside the book. We could get the desktop app to allow you to choose to not upgrade a book, too -- if we stripped out every feature till it matched mobile, which basically lets you read a book and search a single book at once.

As mobile improves, it will necessarily follow the desktop model more and more. It's just too complicated to potentially have 43,000 different books in different revisions / feature-compatibility-levels all running together in one integrated system.

Denise:
Today, 'Faithlife' really doesn't have a lot of credibility as they bounce from poor strategic decision to the next poor strategic decision (with the CEO being thanked effusively for his after-the-fact apologies).

No need to thank me profusely; I'll just presume you feel that way, and bounce along to another bad decision. :-)

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 16 2014 6:59 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

  1. The resources are hosted on Amazon's CloudFront Content Delivery Network. We're not too worried about "a massive drain" on the servers.
  2. I'm not really sure what that means, sorry.
  3. We're not currently planning for that. All these resources are fully compatible with 5.2b SR-5, so 5.3 isn't necessary.
  4. No.

As there will be no change to prevent downloads from interrupting indexing can you assure users that the download will be one batch with only one lot of indexing i.e. a 3 GB batch being indexed will not be followed by a 2 GB batch?

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 10635
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 16 2014 8:02 PM

No desire to thank you profusely, Bob.  But think about it.  It's possible to download your L5 library and hide 99% of it.  L5 still works great.  Or simply select 1% of it.  Like iOS.   Like Kindle.

For some reason, you hint at your future (basically working off the Logos internet library), subscriptions (ditto), and so forth. But you program for a strategy from a century ago (James Strong pairing, lookups, single variable analysis, etc).  And make hundreds of videos training your users to remain in the past.

Someday, you need to meet yourself in the hallway and say hello.  

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 16 2014 9:11 PM

Denise:
It's possible to download your L5 library and hide 99% of it.  L5 still works great.  Or simply select 1% of it.  Like iOS.   Like Kindle.

I agree with Denise.

I personally would not want this feature, why would I have to re- download ALL of my books AT ONCE because someone thought that it was a great idea?

I think Faithlife and Bob miss the fact that users have different devices for different purposes. They wrongly assume that we only read on mobile devices (hence the crippled research capabilities), and, EQUALLY WRONG, that we do serious study on laptops and desktops. I would LOVE to do serious PGs and searches right on my phone or tablet.  And don't tell me they are underpowered. If they can run videogames that are demoed at WWDC and other Apple events, surely, they can run some word searches locally. Is it too difficult to imagine that I have a desktop on which I mostly study and a laptop on which I mostly read, and I do not want to RE-download 6 or even 1GB of resources on the laptop and have to RE-index them, etc, using a ton of my time for resources, I DO NOT WANT on my laptop, but would like to have on my desktop.

So, a paradigm:

  • re-design Library View with the idea to allow per-machine control of resources, similar to what is done currently with mobile (i.e. allow only a subset of entire Library to be installed on any given machine)
  • "archive" of "unused for a long time" (user selected time limit) resources to the cloud without affecting the index. In other words, when 100% of my resources get downloaded and indexed, but after a month I have only used 100 books, and month after month I keep using the same books, referring to the other 99.9% of resources only marginally - "retire" rarely or never used books to the cloud, but with the index still intact. So that when I search, Logos would still display the result in a limited context with a link to download the whole resource.
  • This should not affect the "Facilitate Serendipitous Discovery" feature - run it from the index.

Denise:
For some reason, you hint at your future (basically working off the Logos internet library), subscriptions (ditto), and so forth. But you program for a strategy from a century ago

Yes

Posts 2360
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 16 2014 9:59 PM

MJ. Smith:
Drink high quality tea or coffee -- a perfect cup takes time to make and savor which makes the waits too short rather than too long.

Probably at least as important as Logos IMHO. If you can't make decent coffee or tea, Logos is probably beyond your skill set capacity.

Geeked

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 16 2014 10:38 PM

Denise:

But you program for a strategy from a century ago (James Strong pairing, lookups, single variable analysis, etc).  And make hundreds of videos training your users to remain in the past.

Denise, give it a break - Bob is programming for his market which has a significant percentage of people uncomfortable with contemporary logic and linguistics ... semiology and narratology are not part of their toolkit. If you look at the Logos developed products, you will see Bob is slowly introducing new approaches and spending significant effort to teaching users how to use them without shaking their basic conservatism. From conversations with Logos employees, I know they are considering some of the features you desire - not necessarily in the next version or two but somewhere down the line. Bob will always be constrained by:

  • the fact that in most fields peoples' intellectual toolkit tends to be shaped by the popular theories when they were last in school
  • the teaching methods used in seminaries and Bible colleges
  • the basic tools (graphic organizers, charts, outlining, summarization ...) taught in basic education

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 16 2014 11:31 PM

MJ. Smith:

  • the fact that in most fields peoples' intellectual toolkit tends to be shaped by the popular theories when they were last in school
  • the teaching methods used in seminaries and Bible colleges
  • the basic tools (graphic organizers, charts, outlining, summarization ...) taught in basic education

Do you suppose that's why I still tend to use a mallet and chisel?  Wink

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 165
Wayne | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 12:33 AM

Will indexer take longer than it normally takes? I have a new enough computer that indexing is not a problem for us. It normally finishes in less than 30 minutes.

Posts 1921
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 6:06 AM

toughski:
re-design Library View with the idea to allow per-machine control of resources, similar to what is done currently with mobile (i.e. allow only a subset of entire Library to be installed on any given machine)

I'm fine if we want to have this in the library view within the application. But I will continue to argue that I'd like to manage my library at that level with a web interface. Many reasons for this, but if knowledge of my library and device assignments is authoritatively stored "in the cloud" (and it is), then it makes sense to use the universal UI to the cloud (a browser) to manage it.

Donnie

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 6:52 AM

Donnie Hale:
I'm fine if we want to have this in the library view within the application. But I will continue to argue that I'd like to manage my library at that level with a web interface. Many reasons for this, but if knowledge of my library and device assignments is authoritatively stored "in the cloud" (and it is), then it makes sense to use the universal UI to the cloud (a browser) to manage it.

agreed

Posts 10635
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 7:57 AM

Now MJ.   You know we would not be having this small discussion absent Bob's interest in the future (which appears to be unique among Bible software companies).  My argument is simply that his everyday software decisions are creating a generation of 'scholars' expert in late 1800s Bible study.   And I only say that, having read a couple days back on another site, 'Logos 101'  which I interpret to mean 'Logos pablum'.

Now compare that to Steve Runge's discussion http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2014/10/on-eclecticism-in-linguistics/ or any of the other experts at Logos.  And my interest isn't so Logos can do stuff I want.  I already have that capability.  My concern is the platform will likely become a standard (e.g. success) but is so adept at automating the past.  And this, for a company that hosts (hosted?) a technology conference.

And finally, my comment to Bob IS primarily motivated by 'downloading for downloading's sake'.  I work off of multiple platforms (as do many) and I also don't simply study Logos books.  I study many others.  But Logos is really becoming a download pain in the neck compared to my other platforms.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 78
Rob | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 9:53 AM

Denise:
My argument is simply that his everyday software decisions are creating a generation of 'scholars' expert in late 1800s Bible study

I for one would be interested in modern bible study techniques. Can you point the way?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 1:19 PM

Denise:
 

My argument is simply that his everyday software decisions are creating a generation of 'scholars' expert in late 1800s Bible study.  

I tend to think of it as make-work scholarship ... go through a series of steps for a sufficient period of time and you'll have fulfilled your duty of Bible study .... discover nothing that hasn't been seen by others 100's or 1000's of times ... and be sure to not discover anything that might challenge your understanding of Scripture and Christianity.  For many this can be defined as "do what your textbooks taught you" which is my point of Bob being constrained by his market.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 28235
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 1:28 PM

Robert Perron:

I for one would be interested in modern bible study techniques. Can you point the way?

I'm not Denise and would steer you towards Walton on argumentation theory as one framework - many books that are worthwhile. But to start off I would suggest some new looks at the old:

Participatory Biblical Exegesis by Matthew Levering

New Paradigms for Bible Study edited by Robert M. Fowler et al

Faithful Persuasion by David S. Cunningham

I'm anxious to see other's suggestions.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1616
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 3:27 PM

MJ. Smith:
I tend to think of it as make-work scholarship

A monk once commented to me in a novice class that it was much easier to show that your are praying a lot rather than praying well. Much the same could be said of Bible Study.  Computers can (easily?) automate much of the grunt work of Bible Study, but while this lets you follow more footnotes and test things a bit more, it only indirectly leads to the wisdom of GOOD Bible Study.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Orthodox Silver, Lutheran Starter, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

Posts 1150
Anthony H | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 3:33 PM

Ken McGuire:

MJ. Smith:
I tend to think of it as make-work scholarship

...are praying a lot rather than praying well. Much the same could be said of Bible Study.  Computers can (easily?) automate much of the grunt work of Bible Study, but while this lets you follow more footnotes and test things a bit more, it only indirectly leads to the wisdom of GOOD Bible Study.

 the illusion of competence

Posts 10635
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 7:00 PM

Robert, you ask about your own Bible study .... but that was my point.  You have to dig it out the hard way.  You shouldn't have to. And I don't have a magic bullet for you.  Let me show some very simple examples.

Example 1:  Let's say you want to discuss JEPD theories with a friend. Maybe you don't agree with it; maybe he/she strongly supports it. (Or visa versa).  In your Bible software, you set a flag and it highlights in color the verses/phrases often associated with the theory.  You review some of the examples, look at your commentaries, etc.  to prepare for your discussion.  Logos today? No.  My software? Yes.  Bibles in the early 1900s? Yes.

Example 2:  You're looking at manuscript support for an NT passage, where variation can be material from a theological point of view. You can see the associated source citings; but when and how related?  Easily reviewed? Logos today? No. My software? Yes.  

Example 3: It looks like a hebrew word usage may be impacting greek translation and later english translation. You do a search and it sorts the results by approximate time written (you select conservative vs more liberal assumptions).  Logos today?  My software? Yes.

Example 4:  You're putting together your sermon, and a phrase keeps ringing in your head.  You select the phrase for a quick search, listing the closest in-exact matches.  It additionally highlights the results by key word usage.  Logos? No.  My software? Yes.

Example 5: As you read the OT, it appears the text is 'solid'.  But not so.  Some words are unknown (strictly a guess), some have considerable variation in usage, and some have significant semitic associations.  Logos shows you as you read?  No.  My software?  Yes (approximately!)

I use these examples not to display an amateur lady's programming prowess (zippo).  Instead I list it to show that (a) improving software is not difficult, (b) it's quite useful for Bible study and (c) it's the tip of the iceburg (MJ being able cite far more).  

Christians and pastors deserve far more than automated late 1800s Bible study, 10,000 search results in .2 seconds, and yet one more database to fill up the right-click menu.

Additionally, I'm not Catholic but I'm pretty sure Logos could really go to town with the Catholic materials from what I've seen.  And not that much work either.

I AM a big believer in quickly accessible 'data'. Sitting in Bible study with some 'waver'ers' in the back (usually), a strong data-supported statement easily pulled, does wonders. And being able to let the waver-ers quickly see for themselves is even better.

It's just not that hard.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 1150
Anthony H | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 17 2014 7:35 PM

Denise:

Robert, you ask about your own Bible study .... but that was my point.  You have to dig it out the hard way.  You shouldn't have to. And I don't have a magic bullet for you.  Let me show some very simple examples.

Example 1:  Let's say you want to discuss JEPD theories with a friend. Maybe you don't agree with it; maybe he/she strongly supports it. (Or visa versa).  In your Bible software, you set a flag and it highlights in color the verses/phrases often associated with the theory.  You review some of the examples, look at your commentaries, etc.  to prepare for your discussion.  Logos today? No.  My software? Yes.  Bibles in the early 1900s? Yes.

Example 2:  You're looking at manuscript support for an NT passage, where variation can be material from a theological point of view. You can see the associated source citings; but when and how related?  Easily reviewed? Logos today? No. My software? Yes.  

Example 3: It looks like a hebrew word usage may be impacting greek translation and later english translation. You do a search and it sorts the results by approximate time written (you select conservative vs more liberal assumptions).  Logos today?  My software? Yes.

Example 4:  You're putting together your sermon, and a phrase keeps ringing in your head.  You select the phrase for a quick search, listing the closest in-exact matches.  It additionally highlights the results by key word usage.  Logos? No.  My software? Yes.

Example 5: As you read the OT, it appears the text is 'solid'.  But not so.  Some words are unknown (strictly a guess), some have considerable variation in usage, and some have significant semitic associations.  Logos shows you as you read?  No.  My software?  Yes (approximately!)

I use these examples not to display an amateur lady's programming prowess (zippo).  Instead I list it to show that (a) improving software is not difficult, (b) it's quite useful for Bible study and (c) it's the tip of the iceburg (MJ being able cite far more).  

Christians and pastors deserve far more than automated late 1800s Bible study, 10,000 search results in .2 seconds, and yet one more database to fill up the right-click menu.

Additionally, I'm not Catholic but I'm pretty sure Logos could really go to town with the Catholic materials from what I've seen.  And not that much work either.

I AM a big believer in quickly accessible 'data'. Sitting in Bible study with some 'waver'ers' in the back (usually), a strong data-supported statement easily pulled, does wonders. And being able to let the waver-ers quickly see for themselves is even better.

It's just not that hard.

It's interesting the direction this has taken. It is very similar to a conversation I recently had when talking to my wife about studying very current positions and paradigms. I basically concluded that, even if I had the complete L5 library (I have Platinum plus my bent of added books) the library can only carry me so far ...to the edge of the 20th (in some cases the 21st) century and then I have to leave L5 to pursue through other means and resources. I'm not dismissing the quality of the content and it's functionality in L5 nor the foundation built by previous believers (not that I agree with all of the conclusions of previous believers) but scholarship has made some pretty impressive leaps since 1950 (NT and Jewish studies alone since Qumran) not to mention in comparison to the 16-19th centuries. Yet a significant majority of the content available is....well, pretty dated.  

So Miss Lady Denise, how would one come to acquire said software? Wink

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