Request: God and The Gay Christian
Will there ever be a Logos edition of God and The Gay Christian by Matthew Vines?
What about the response from the faculty of Southern Seminary?
This sort of controversial book is perfect for Logos. Help us respond and study deeper these critical issues.
Comments
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Another good one in this conversation is Oriented to Faith: Transforming the Conflict over Gay Relationships by Tim Otto.
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Having heard Mr. Vines' presentation from 2012, the preparation for which apparently required him to drop out of college for two years (!?), I can't imagine what might be study-worthy in his book.
macOS (Logos Pro - Beta) | Android 13 (Logos Stable)
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Robert M. Warren said:
I can't imagine what might be study-worthy in his book.
There was nothing new or even innovative in Mr. Vines' arguments; they were pretty much warmed over stuff from previous generations. But the arguments he made, and as another reply referenced, the responses to them (particularly those by Mohler, et. al. at Southern), would make a great Logos tool for dealing with these kinds of issues. In particular, dissecting bad exegesis built on faulty hermeneutic is often much easier when the necessary references are a click away.
I like the idea of having this in Logos, even though like you I find nothing of intrinsic value in the book.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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I hope it never gets into Logos- LBGT propaganda- Matthew Vines needs to repent and turn from his "SIN"- yes sin- orientation is a typical lie fostered by lost minds blinded to the truth of Scripture, enforced by Satanic influence.0
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Kind of doubt the propaganda.
Not more than a few decades back, mental illness was demonic. Sin! Read it right there in the NT! Before that, stringing witches up. Sin! Before that, burning other Christians at the stake for a Bible in english. Sin! Before that slavery was God's punishment. Sin! And before that, women created sin. Powerful ladies! Christians pretty much got sin nailed down real good.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
Kind of doubt the propaganda.
Not more than a few decades back, mental illness was demonic. Sin! Read it right there in the NT! Before that, stringing witches up. Sin! Before that, burning other Christians at the stake for a Bible in english. Sin! Before that slavery was God's punishment. Sin! And before that, women created sin. Powerful ladies! Christians pretty much got sin nailed down real good.
straw man [:(]
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Robert M. Warren said:
I can't imagine what might be study-worthy in his book.
I really enjoyed the period of time when the convention on the forums was to not comment on any suggested resource if one's comment was negative. It had been initiated when several people complained that making suggestions felt like running the gauntlet. And we have two excellent methods of expressing our dislike of a resource that don't feel like a gauntlet - don't purchase the resource OR purchase it, read it carefully and write a thoughtful negative review.
While the book holds no particular interest to me, my imagination is quite capable of understanding why it might be profitable reading.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Whyndell - you're veering off into theology again in a way I find personally offensive. Why? Because I am perfectly capable of making my own choices - including the deliberate choice to read theological garbage so that I understand where particular groups stand and can better minister to them especially by being an example that lovingly contradicts some point of their theological garbage. And, yes, I know you have no interest in my reading of choice -- Biblical and other Christian Sogdian texts from the Turfan Collection being my most recent suggestion.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I really enjoyed the period of time when the convention on the forums was to not comment on any suggested resource if one's comment was negative. It had been initiated when several people complained that making suggestions felt like running the gauntlet.
Well, excuuuuse me,
Is there no suggestion that can be considered ridiculous?
macOS (Logos Pro - Beta) | Android 13 (Logos Stable)
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Personally I think that Mollenkott/Scanzoni book Is the Homosexual my Neighbor? should be in Logos
Robert M. Warren said:Is there no suggestion that can be considered ridiculous?
Chariots of the Gods? by Erick von Daeniken???
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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I guess for some of us it still matters that Logos remains different from a secular company like say Amazon, where one may choose to purchase a Bible but can just as well purchase pornography. This means that we would like to keep certain areas of our life free from being invaded by obsession on issues that are already sufficiently imposed on us everywhere else.
There is, for that matter, no just reason why a comment comparing Christian posture toward homosexuality to past shameful treatment of mental illnesses (with all it implies) should be allowed, unmarked, while comments the other way are picked on. The field is not even.
I recall having a heated discussion in the old days with a Bible College professor who argued with me that watching pornography could be allowable for study purposes! Not everything goes for the sake of study.
Fact is that the very suggestion of this thread is too controversial.
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Thanks Francis- what I stated was my view of the book.
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Francis said:
I guess for some of us it still matters that Logos remains different from a secular company like say Amazon, where one may choose to purchase a Bible but can just as well purchase pornography. This means that we would like to keep certain areas of our life free from being invaded by obsession on issues that are already sufficiently imposed on us everywhere else.
But that's the point. Some of us may be able to keep their life (or certain areas thereof) free from certain discussions. They may simply choose to ignore respective material in the Logos offering. Others will find the discussion is imposed on them, whether they like it or not.
The book suggested in this thread is remarkable for the fact that its author self-identifies as an evangelical Christian, and he undertakes to make his argument as an exegetical evaluation of "What The Bible Says About". His arguments may not be new (I seem to read that some are conceded even by those who oppose his overall conclusion), but this book - seemingly very successful in terms of media awareness as well as sales - is perhaps much more likely to fall into the hands of evangelical church members who want to find out by themselves. So I suspect pastors would want to have read it when they are asked about it in their congregation. And with a book in Logos, it's easier to find out whether the arguments hold true, line up with trusted commentaries (or not) and where they go astray.
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:
but this book - seemingly very successful in terms of media awareness as well as sales - is perhaps much more likely to fall into the hands of evangelical church members who want to find out by themselves. So I suspect pastors would want to have read it when they are asked about it in their congregation
I hear what you are saying Mick, but disagree. If a pastor wants to read this, they can get it on amazon or other sites. A years back, the Da Vinci Code made a media splash: should Logos have it available so that pastors can read it and have an opinion of their own? My point is that this kind of argument opens the net too wide.
At the other end of the spectrum, there are bigots like me who do not find it particularly funny when they look for a book on amazon and have to scroll through moral garbage, or to use another example, be flooded by lgbt movies on netflix. That's what I mean by being able to still have a "smoke-free" environment where we can retreat and not be exposed to the second-hand stuff we don't want.
There is place for these conversations, but they must not be given the kind of prominent place some would have us believe these topics deserve. I am thinking along the lines of Ephesians 5:12 "for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret".
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Not familiar with the author or the work cited.
If it has to do with the interpretation of scripture on Homosexuality (regardless of the authors conclusion) it belongs in Logos. See my signature.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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[Y][Y] I would love both resources in Logos Bible Software.
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Ken McGuire said:
Chariots of the Gods? by Erick von Daeniken???
Ken's trolling for old-timers [:)]
Rod Serling actually made a TV program out of that stinker. I recall RS actually kept a straight-face while saying that the design specs for the Ark of the Covenant would produce a radio receiver. Travelling in another dimension, indeed.
macOS (Logos Pro - Beta) | Android 13 (Logos Stable)
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Rokas, your strawman is too facile. The reason books like this (along with the evangelical discussions of women) belong isn't due to their 'theology'. Or 'I'm right and you make me uncomfortable!'
Rather each of the examples I listed were well meaning Christians, well endowed with belief, and well endowed with an ability to read/study/exegete. But at one point in time, their opinion/behavior was in one direction and later the other. How is that possible? How does that fit in with how humans inter-react with the writing?
In the gay case, if I were a Christian leader, I'd be non-plus'd these days. The reason is exactly as above. How can a sizable population (and a sizable Christian population) completely switch gears so quickly? People say 'propaganda!'. But they don't look at how the argument changed gears. Where were the pastors? And the discussion in Italy this week further illustrates the problem. Bishops? When people can see their kids, what do pastors (and early Christian writers) do with 'sin'.
And the argument does have legs. I grew up with my Mother tagged as 'sin!!'. 'Lazy!!' But it was mental illness. I found that out later. They could have told me when I was young. But they didn't; 'sin' was too easy. It's in the Bible! And I hope no one's assuming I'm equating mental illness with gay; rather how Bible reading interfaces with realities.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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As this banner says, There's no better way to dig into the Word..." Resources that find their way into logos should always follow this priority, that it will help up dig deeper into God's Word.
I see nor real need nor benefit to have to spend Logos manpower into adding a book into Logos that does not meet that basic and fundamental guiding principle for a Bible study software.
For those who are curious of what the Christian should believe about Homosexuality or any other social and cultural issues, then research and study the Bible assisted by the many serious scholarly works already in Logos. As the Apostle Paul would say, The bible is sufficient for this matters.
And if you still want to read it... then buy it in Amazon or better yet, don't buy it just borrow it from your neighborhood library.
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Lynden Williams said:
Not familiar with the author or the work cited.
If it has to do with the interpretation of scripture on Homosexuality (regardless of the authors conclusion) it belongs in Logos. See my signature.
AMEN!
One person mentioned a desire for Logos to avoid works like this... to be a Christian company. The problem is everyone here will find many books with views they find heretical. Arminarism/Calvinism/Evangelicalism/Pentecostalism/Catholicism/etc. Not to mention literalists who might find the majority of critical commentaries heretical. If you do not want a certain book in Your Library don't buy it.
-Dan
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I remember a cartoon a while back that had a bunch of politicians looking up all the possible meanings of the word "no" in a dictionary.
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David Medina said:
As this banner says, There's no better way to dig into the Word..." Resources that find their way into logos should always follow this priority, that it will help up dig deeper into God's Word.
I see nor real need nor benefit to have to spend Logos manpower into adding a book into Logos that does not meet that basic and fundamental guiding principle for a Bible study software.
For those who are curious of what the Christian should believe about Homosexuality or any other social and cultural issues, then research and study the Bible assisted by the many serious scholarly works already in Logos. As the Apostle Paul would say, The bible is sufficient for this matters.
And if you still want to read it... then buy it in Amazon or better yet, don't buy it just borrow it from your neighborhood library.
not an easy solution as it seems to be
From one side, we can choose ourselves which books to buy, and we vote with our vallets. One can build library what is only beneficial to Bible study, while the other one, in a broader scope wants to get of what is beneficial to theological studies. We are all different and have different viewpoints.
On the other side, if a book approves sin, then how would it be ethical for a born again Christian promote this product, make $$$ out of it and benefit the publisher? If one thinks it's normal for a Christian to sell this book, then why can't the other ones sell alcohol, tobacco, or drugs?
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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Dan, we need to be clear. There's two kinds of literalists (as usual). Literal textists (that's me!), who really like critical commentaries. And literal interpreters (who concentrate on the literal interpretation). I suspect Jesus was in the first group while his pharasee friends were in the second group. That's how I like to view it. Smile.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Wild Eagle said:
On the other side, if a book approves sin, then how would it be ethical for a born again Christian promote this product, make $$$ out of it and benefit the publisher?
"Be a sinner and sin mightily"—Martin Luther
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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All u have to do is plant a comment and all hades breaks loose
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Is is possible to retire this discussion now? Please. [:D]
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Denise said:
Dan, we need to be clear. There's two kinds of literalists (as usual). Literal textists (that's me!), who really like critical commentaries. And literal interpreters (who concentrate on the literal interpretation). I suspect Jesus was in the first group while his pharasee friends were in the second group. That's how I like to view it. Smile.
Well one may define it as one likes. It was just a way of stating a view point yet not defining it. The other day someone complained about Faithlife Bible since it had not taken a firm stand on early Genesis as literal factual accounts. I am trying to argue one way or another this is not a place for that, but I will agree with you Jesus is not easily pinned down.
-Dan
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I am Presbyterian Church (USA) and Vines (who is PCUSA too) is a HUGE deal right now; a minor bordering on major celebrity at our recent descent into the abyss, otherwise known as General Assembly. While I certainly do not support Mr. Vines' conclusions, and personally think his work is rehashed, Vines is young and extremely charismatic in person, and his book would be a helpful resource to me and others as we stand for biblical truth in a denomination that has decided rails are for losers. I would also want to see Dr. Robert Gagnon's seminal work in Logos, as well as other resources that support and argue for homosexuality being sinful.
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I'd like to see the Lutheran statement on the subject - 2009 ELCA and other such church documents. Not because homosexuality is a hot topic with me at the moment but because church documents are always something I want more of.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dan Francis said:
If you do not want a certain book in Your Library don't buy it.
What a novel idea. I think I will give it a try.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I do not know Matthew Vines or his book, but two years ago I researched John Boswell Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality, and Robin Scroggs The New Testament and Homosexuality, along with several websites and a few journal articles on the same subject. I created a personal book from the paper I wrote. Two caveats: 1) I never finished tagging and 2) the title might be too controversial for some members of this forum.
For what it's worth, you are welcome to the paper.
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Jack,
The link to your personal book doesn't seem to work. I would be interested in it. Thanks for sharing.
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FWIW: James White's highly exegetical rebuttal of Matthew Vines' interpretation of Scripture re: homosexuality ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3--t_oBMeQ
5 hours long.
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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Nord Zootman said:
The link to your personal book doesn't seem to work.
Clicked the link this morning, and the file downloaded for me. If it still does not work, drop me a line at jackcaviness at mac dot com, and I will email you a copy.
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Jack Caviness said:Nord Zootman said:
The link to your personal book doesn't seem to work.
Clicked the link this morning, and the file downloaded for me. If it still does not work, drop me a line at jackcaviness at mac dot com, and I will email you a copy.
For me it was broken yesterday - maybe in course with overall forum server issues - and works today: thanks a lot for sharing this study!
Have joy in the Lord!
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Working fine this morning. Thanks Jack!
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Denise said:
Rokas, your strawman is too facile. The reason books like this (along with the evangelical discussions of women) belong isn't due to their 'theology'. Or 'I'm right and you make me uncomfortable!'
Rather each of the examples I listed were well meaning Christians, well endowed with belief, and well endowed with an ability to read/study/exegete. But at one point in time, their opinion/behavior was in one direction and later the other. How is that possible? How does that fit in with how humans inter-react with the writing?
In the gay case, if I were a Christian leader, I'd be non-plus'd these days. The reason is exactly as above. How can a sizable population (and a sizable Christian population) completely switch gears so quickly? People say 'propaganda!'. But they don't look at how the argument changed gears. Where were the pastors? And the discussion in Italy this week further illustrates the problem. Bishops? When people can see their kids, what do pastors (and early Christian writers) do with 'sin'.
And the argument does have legs. I grew up with my Mother tagged as 'sin!!'. 'Lazy!!' But it was mental illness. I found that out later. They could have told me when I was young. But they didn't; 'sin' was too easy. It's in the Bible! And I hope no one's assuming I'm equating mental illness with gay; rather how Bible reading interfaces with realities.
Denise, thanks for your honest and thorough answer.
By strawman I meant that you cannot dismiss his claim it being propaganda simply by bringing other events from history with apparently similar claims and circumstances, show them invalid and thus reject the original claim. I think you'd rather have to address his claim directly and show why that in your opinion wouldn't be propaganda. Or ask him to support his claim with evidence and then address either his evidence or inferences.
Of course, now you shared your reasoning, which I appreciate (although I did not intend to get into discussion). I think most of the people aren't simply walking intimately with God and don't read their Bibles, if they, as you nicely put it, change their gears so easily. Path of least resistance, or whatever is it.
Apart from that, I can certainly sympathize with you. I feel sorry that you had to be subjected to all that. I was born and grew up in Lithuania (read communism leftovers with all its beliefs), and in the church I could certainly see how my sisters in faith were being mistreated simply because of some unfounded "biblical" beliefs or poor/selective exegesis/eisegesis. And no, I don't assume that you're equating that, but rather how both issues arise due to the same mistake.
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