[request] Ancient Literature

Page 2 of 2 (38 items) < Previous 1 2
This post has 37 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 26106
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 28 2014 12:53 PM

I view the Ancient Literature section as a reference book rather than a library search - as such it also helps me with dead tree resources not available in my Logos. I would not like to see the results limited by my library. I would, however, like to see it remember collapse/expand state.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2181
Forum MVP
John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 28 2014 2:01 PM

I vote for whatever keep Logos running fast.

Posts 8601
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 28 2014 2:12 PM

Rick Brannan (Faithlife):
Would it be helpful to remember expanded/collapsed sections? I need to get a feel of how hard (or not) to push for this feature to be implemented.

MJ. Smith:
I would, however, like to see it remember collapse/expand state.

I'm definitely on board with this. Remembering a state is key for ease of access.  I can't fathom it adding much overhead either.

Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

Check the Wiki

Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

Posts 823
GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 28 2014 2:55 PM

MJ. Smith:

I view the Ancient Literature section as a reference book rather than a library search - as such it also helps me with dead tree resources not available in my Logos. I would not like to see the results limited by my library. I would, however, like to see it remember collapse/expand state.

Absolutely. I think this is a great feature, and will save hours in trying to track down references. I would prefer it to continue showing items that aren't in my library, so that I can go to a dead-tree library and check them out there: it is also useful for those of us who need to provide citations at times - the fact I don't have the book doesn't mean I don't want to cite it (after checking out the original in a D-T library, of course). 


Running Logos 6 Platinum and Logos Now on Surface Pro 4, 8 GB RAM, 256GB SSD, i5

Posts 38
Brian Crawford | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 8:20 AM

This Ancient Literature feature is the one I'm most excited about in Logos 6. It will be a great help for my ministry and studies in the future. I am most impressed with the "Allusions" feature, since that will bring up parallel passages that don't even use the same wording. Well done. Too bad the Catholic edition of the Church Fathers is so expensive, as many of the links go to that resource.

However, based on my limited time with it, the Ancient Literature feature seems to be really incomplete. For example, I'm looking at the data given for Romans 9:3.

From this verse, Logos gives three quotations and a bunch of other allusions. Why only three?

Here is what Bibleworks 9 spits out for the same verse, while only looking at the references to Romans 9:3 in Schaff's Early Church Fathers. In other words, a very limited search for cross-references.

If the new Ancient Literature database was hard coded to find mere references to Romans 9:3 given in the footnotes to Schaff's Church Fathers, then it should have every one of these, but it doesn't. Why not? Why only three quotations across all patristics?

Also, I already do not trust the data that the Ancient Literature database gives. Up above, one of the three quotations given was Jerome's Adv. Helv. 14. It's not there. It's in section 16. I found this error only because I found the correct reference using Bibleworks. But Logos 6 doesn't allow me to submit a typo for this.

Will this feature be seeing regular updates to make it more exhaustive and accurate? I was hoping for it to be my one-stop-shop for cross-references, but it will be merely one place among many that I will go for my research.

Posts 1264
LogosEmployee
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 9:31 AM

Hi Brian.

Brian Crawford:
If the new Ancient Literature database was hard coded to find mere references to Romans 9:3 given in the footnotes to Schaff's Church Fathers, then it should have every one of these, but it doesn't. Why not?

The Ancient Literature is not a concordance of existing references tagged in ECF. That can be done with a search and a collection with relative ease.

Because a reference occurs somewhere does not mean that it has been quoted or alluded to. Especially in the ECF footnotes (and it varies from vol to vol even then), it means that an editor thought there was some relevance of some sort with the present selection. It doesn't mean the author of the original was citing or quoting it.

If you want a concordance of a particular reference or reference range in ECF (or any collection of resources), the best way is to use the existing 'Collection' feature in Passage Guide. Create a collection for ECF (though you may already have one) and use it in the Guide:

Ancient Literature data on Church Fathers is derived from material in the Fathers of the Church series (here: https://www.logos.com/product/33665/fathers-of-the-church-series) as well the ECF series. We also use Catena Aurea (here: https://www.logos.com/product/5216/catena-aurea-commentary-on-the-four-gospels) and even analysis of ACCS material. Basically we're making a network of citations for further analysis (this 'further analysis' is what the Ancient Literature dataset provides) where we can abstractly represent both the Bible reference and the Church Fathers reference. Then we analyze the pair and provide a relationship describing how one reference is likely related to the other reference. We're looking at places in commentaries where there are links to church fathers writings, we're looking at church fathers' writings where there are links to the Bible.

Because we have different editions of several of the writings of the church fathers (FOTC, ECF Protestant Edition, ECF Catholic Edition; with ACW (hopefully) coming) we use the author-based data type milestones (not Bible milestones) in the resource to provide the church father reference point. So at present we restrict the analysis to things that we can provide data type links for on both sides. ECF has several volumes that have this degree of milestone implementation, but some that do not. Using these provides the greatest flexibiilty for users of all of these different editions.

In the Jerome case you mention, we have a problem of different editions (FOTC, ECF Protestant & Catholic) using slightly different numbering schemes. In the FOTC edition of Jerome, the reference is in §14; in ECF it is in §16. Same text, differently numbered.

We do want to constantly improve this data, and your feedback will help us do that. So thanks for this report.

During the beta phase, we improved and expanded the data — specifically for Church Fathers — a number of times. But there is a distinct difference between what the references in Ancient Literature report, and what a search by reference of a collection report. The Ancient Literature references sift out a lot of references that *might* be valid in some way, and hope to keep and classify those that are — particularly for Church Fathers, which are classified in an automated fashion. With other report corpora (Josephus, Philo, Dead Sea Scrolls Sectarian, OT Pseudepigrapha, Apostolic Fathers, NT Apocrypha) each reference's relationship is hand-curated. Other datasets (Judaica, Nag Hammadi material) consulted material where relationship determinations are relatively secure and could be done in an automated fashion.

So I'd say use both Ancient Literature and the Collection section of the Passage Guide. If you want every place a particular Bible reference is tagged so you can follow up on everything, then the Collection section is your friend. If you want a curated list, with relationship information about why a particular reference is there, then hit Ancient Literature (particularly for coropra outside of Church Fathers).

If you have further items you want to report regarding Ancient Literature, you may email me directly: rick at faithlife dot com.

Thanks again for your feedback.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 38
Brian Crawford | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 9:54 AM

Hi Rick, thank you for your detailed response about how the Ancient Literature database works. That makes a lot of sense to see it as a curated resource. That is quite a lot of effort to approve each one of these by hand! I am very appreciative all your hard work. I will follow your tip with the Collections subsection in the Passage Guide to get a non-curated selection.

Do you ever foresee soliciting user help for improving this database? Something akin to the typo submit function? For instance, how would this ECF §16 discrepancy be corrected if I had not brought it up on the forum?

Posts 1264
LogosEmployee
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 10:00 AM

Brian Crawford:
Do you ever foresee soliciting user help for improving this database? Something akin to the typo submit function? For instance, how would this ECF §16 discrepancy be corrected if I had not brought it up on the forum?

Not sure, to be honest. That's why I left you my email address, and you should feel free to contact me about this data. It is (relatively) new, and I want to make sure we get the right stuff in there to make it the best it can be.

Right now I'm writing some code to see if we can review the ECF stuff a little more critically and help it to play a larger role in the data that comes through. In that case, it might be that both references (14 and 16) could be listed. Better to have both (1 + 1 = 1?) than to miss half the time (probably more than half since more users have ECF than FOTC).

Thanks again.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 1627
Allen Browne | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 7:02 PM

Brian Crawford:
This Ancient Literature feature is the one I'm most excited about in Logos 6

Seriously, the Ancient Literature feature is incredibly useful for those of us who are trying to understand how Scriptures were understood in the ancient world.

I never use the Passage Guide, but this feature will change my workflow. :-)

Posts 24
Elias Brasil de Souza | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 4:24 AM

Is it possible to do Milestone Search with Ancient Literature? Something like {Milestone <AncientLiterature Gen 1:1>}, for example; or a section search.

Posts 6479
Forum MVP
Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 5:36 AM

This is the only way that I know how.

Everything ever written in Religion and Theology formatted for Logos Bible Software.Logos Youtube Channel

Posts 24
Elias Brasil de Souza | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 5:37 AM

Thanks for your reply.

Posts 6479
Forum MVP
Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 5:45 AM

Elias, have you tried creating a collection of all the resources that you have that fit the category of Ancient Literature and running a search on it?

Everything ever written in Religion and Theology formatted for Logos Bible Software.Logos Youtube Channel

Posts 24
Elias Brasil de Souza | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 6:30 AM

Yes. I know I can do it that way. I was just wondering if there is way of doing a direct search. Any way, since this does not seem to be possible, I’ll keeping using the passage guide or may create a collection with the appropriate resources.

Posts 13312
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 7:08 AM

Elias Brasil de Souza:

Is it possible to do Milestone Search with Ancient Literature? Something like {Milestone <AncientLiterature Gen 1:1>}, for example; or a section search.

You can do a Milestone search with any resource that uses milestones. But what would you be expecting {Milestone <AncientLiterature Gen 1:1>} to produce? That's the wrong syntax, but to give you the correct syntax, I need to know what you're expecting.

Posts 24
Elias Brasil de Souza | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 1:00 PM

I know it is the wrong syntax; it was just for the sake of illustration. That is, to find a particular Bible reference in ancient sources, Gen 1:1, for example. Since Literary Typing and Culture work very well with section search, I thought there might be something like that in ancient sources. Something like {Section <AncientSources Gen 1:1>} (This is just an illustration, I do not expect it to work). I know I can do this kind of search through passage guide or through a collection with the pertinent resources.

Posts 1264
LogosEmployee
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 2:27 PM

Alternately, if all you want is the Ancient Literature data, you could make a custom guide with just the Ancient Literature section, and use it instead of the full passage guide.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 24
Elias Brasil de Souza | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 6:18 PM

That’s a very good suggestion. Thanks.

Page 2 of 2 (38 items) < Previous 1 2 | RSS