Rethinking the value of Logos and electronic resoruces

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Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 31 2014 3:36 PM

Assumed ... and ... presumably ... even though it was bought legally.  ?

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Tom Reynolds | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 31 2014 3:53 PM

Earlier this year while I was working overseas my storage locker was robbed. I lost everything except - my physical books (thief didn't want them?!?) and my Logos library. I lost the physical Logos CDs from back when but they are already activated so I still have the resources. I lost all my hand tools, I can't even change the tire/tyre on my car anymore but I didn't lose one Logos resource!

If that thief decides to sell my Logos CDs and DVDs on ebay it doesn't matter because I own the license - he's out of luck and so is the buyer, but you know what, I'm kind of glad about that. So, I've thought about it and although I didn't lose my physical books this time I know that my Logos library is safer than my tools, cutlery, CD player, etc. were. Plus Logos is portable and since I live overseas 80% of the time that's a big plus. :D

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 31 2014 4:01 PM

TCBlack:
It is the assumed implication of the software being unwrapped, etc.  And then the Logos software couldn't activate it (because it has already been activated presumably.)  Even though the software was bought legally, until the seller relinquishes his/her license (in writing I guess) there is no way to transfer ownership - thus it is an illegal transfer.

We think of legally meaning stolen or not. In the digital world legally ALSO means according to the terms and stipulation of the vendor. It is new and we aren't used to transacting business that way, old world laws said if we could hold it we own it. But in reality there are many examples of thinking we successfully completed a purchase transaction but in reality we did not get what we thought we bought. Digital products are no different.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 31 2014 4:09 PM

"illegally" probably wasn't a good choice of words. There was nothing "illegal" about it. Rather, it just wasnt a legal (valid) sale of a resource. Indulge me for a moment. Let's assume BAMA makes it to the National Title Game (a big assumption this year, I know). Let's say that someone purchases a ticket, and goes to the game. The next week they sell me the physical ticket. What good is the ticket? It won't get me into the game next year. It won't allow me to see the game already played. The value of the ticket AFTER the game is differnt than BEFORE. The Same is true (in a different way) when you "purchase" a physical disc of electronic media. The Product code has already been used. Why would you think you can use it again?

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Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 31 2014 5:04 PM

178294z:
I recently bought a CD based Libronix resource from a party online. The product had been opened/used, but contained all original packaging (case/cds/papers/etc) and the original serial number and activation code. After attempting to activate it with customer service over the phone I was told the product could not be activated without a letter from the original party that purchased the software X many years ago.

Simple solution. If you want the software, contact the seller and have them provide a letter or contact customer service. If you don't want the software, return it. If the person you bought it from is not the person to whom it is licensed, then you got ripped off by the person you bought it from. Chalk it up to experience and move on.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 31 2014 5:14 PM

178294z:
but the issue I have is the physical software's packaging does not specify this. I am a reasonable person - I would have no issue if the packaging stated this, but it doesn't.

So, if I stole the laptop you have Logos installed on should I get to keep your Logos?  Possession is nine-tenths of the law, right?

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 31 2014 5:19 PM

Going back to the original title, re-thinking is appropriate where:

(1) You're getting older.  I've noticed older men don't computer much.  Their wives do.  Plus I've also noticed as you get older, you spend more time with the Bible.

(2) You've answered all the key questions that need answering.  When God finishes giving you the answer, there you go.  My Dad, a retired preacher, has his TV control (football) and his Bible.  His computer software died a decade ago.  He's still going strong.

(3) I thought Libronix software worked fine by itself.  It's been awhile since my last CD purchase.  But I don't remember doing the license thing.  Libby just works.  But in the OP's case, legally?  Hmmm.  

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 31 2014 5:40 PM

Steve:
Perhaps you could obtain some sort of transfer note from the seller stating that they have transferred the product to you.  If not, maybe you could get a refund from them.

And pay the transfer fee.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 30
178294z | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 31 2014 7:05 PM

Super.Tramp:
So, if I stole the laptop you have Logos installed on should I get to keep your Logos?  Possession is nine-tenths of the law, right?

1) I would still have my login credentials. 2) I never willfully gave you my install CDs/codes/etc to you. 3) You don't have a bill of sale from me. 4) If I tried to login to Logos and couldn't because you, the thief, tried to take control of my Bible study software/account I would theoretically be able to produce a police report to show Logos and the police department that you are, in fact, a thief.

Posts 30
178294z | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 31 2014 7:19 PM

TCBlack:
And the EULA which is on the disk contains all of this.

When I put in the old Libronix disk I didn't see a EULA, but I don't doubt there is one somewhere on the CD. The problem is it isn't on the outside of the old CD case where one can read before purchasing. If one simply comes across a product's packaging at a store somewhere they are not going to know the transfer restrictions. Thankfully, I'm not out a huge sum, but I feel for someone whose first experience with Logos involves buying a used (or "illegal" as some of you would categorize it) copy of software that has all activation codes and all original packaging only to find out a EULA somewhere inside the software says they've stolen the software even though they have a receipt in hand. After all, we all know people should put a CD in the computer first and read the EULA before buying, I mean stealing the CD Smile

Thankfully w/ Logos moving all online one has access to the EULA before purchasing.

Posts 2268
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 31 2014 7:24 PM

Super.Tramp:

178294z:
but the issue I have is the physical software's packaging does not specify this. I am a reasonable person - I would have no issue if the packaging stated this, but it doesn't.

So, if I stole the laptop you have Logos installed on should I get to keep your Logos?  Possession is nine-tenths of the law, right?

If you stole the Laptop then you only get 90% of Logos.  That's 9/10ths of the law.  

Seems to me if I bought physical property for Logos software for $XXXXX.XX then I should be happy I got a pretty jewel case with papers and a piece of plastic inside.  If I want a license, I don't need the physical property at all.  Could have saved shipping costs.   I have quite a bit of money wrapped up in Logos and not one single mug or jacket or sticker or floppy/CD/DVD to show for it.

And when I die, I'm oughtta here.  My kids all have Logos, but aren't "into it" like I am.  It might be a waste to give it to them and how on earth would I divide my library among them. But in time that might change.  I suppose they could resell it and recoup a lot of value.  I am including information about licensing and value in papers for them in case I go up the flume.  

 

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Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 31 2014 11:29 PM

Over 20 years ago I bought my first Logos resources.  I upgraded from a program called CDWORD that had just been bought out by the new Logos company to the new Logos Bible Software.  In over 20 years I have never lost an e-book that I bought from Logos.  In fact, the books I bought 20 years ago are even more valuable today because of the revolutionary improvements in the software, and the free upgrades of the books themselves.  Know what happened to the paper books I bought 20 years ago?  If I used them much, they are worn out.  Pages have come loose from the binding, some have been lost, and some stolen.  I would say the value is far greater with Logos books, after 20 years.  And the paper book publishers never updated or replaced a single one for free, as Logos has done every time I bought a new computer or phone.  

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 1 2014 3:58 AM

178294z:
but I feel for someone whose first experience with Logos involves buying a used (or "illegal" as some of you would categorize it) copy of software that has all activation codes and all original packaging only to find out a EULA somewhere inside the software says they've stolen the software even though they have a receipt in hand.

But it is not your first experience. In a previous thread you claimed you were only able to find 65 of the 100 June Hunt Counseling resources. You also indicated you have L5.

Posts 1129
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 1 2014 4:15 AM

I am confused. The original poster has been told to contact the seller and ask him or her to call or write Logos transferring the license. Why has this simple solution not been done?

If the original owner is not willing to pay the transfer fee the buyer always could.

Until he or she takes these easy steps I don't understand what all the complaining is about.

Posts 1602
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 1 2014 4:37 AM

OP: Did Logos indicate that the serial number was currently registered with another person?  Or they could not tell if it was on file?  I ask because I honestly don't know how the Libronix CD's worked, never had one.  General question: Was Logos the only software that used the Libronix format content?  Or would there be potential of another software program using the content?

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Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 1 2014 5:05 AM

I know it's frustrating to purchase something, only to find that you can't use it.  I have made several third party purchases for Libronix products and some of them have not been cheap.  Every time I called Logos to activate them I held my breathe hoping they were not already registered to another user.  Thankfully, all have worked out well for me, but I definitely understand why you are frustrated.

I think the reason for the registration process is to keep me from purchasing a product, giving it to 7 other people and all of us can use the resources at the same time.  This is the difference between electronic and print books.  If I own a book and give it to someone, I can no longer use it.  Without a registration process, more than one person has access to the resources at the same time.

I would follow the recommendation of the other posts and contact the seller to facilitate a transfer.  There is a process in place for users to transfer their resources to another person so you can uses what you have purchased.  I would suggest that be your next step.

I hope all works out well for you.

Posts 1646
SteveF | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 1 2014 11:19 AM

Steve:
Was Logos the only software that used the Libronix format content?

YES

Steve:
Or would there be potential of another software program using the content?

No [but there have been many creative Libronix users who "might" have found work-arounds?]

Regards, SteveF

Posts 30
178294z | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 9 2015 10:39 AM

I thought I would take a minute and provide an update to my original post. Last year I wrestled with the long term value of electronic resources like Logos. I have since come to some conclusions.

In short I have decided, for the first time ever, to spend around 75% of my resource budget exclusively on Logos products.  To quote Tim Challies, “After years of dabbling in Logos, the new version, version 6, finally convinced me to make the leap, and for the past few months I have done all my sermon preparation using only electronic resources. To this point I have no regrets”  http://www.challies.com/articles/should-you-make-the-move-to-logos

Why? 

Logos is in my opinion the most stable of any Bible software company. My original post raised several questions about the stability of electronic tools. As consumers we have good reason to consider this. In my office I currently possess around 10 Bible software programs including E-Sword, Bibleworks, Accordance, Quickverse, WordSearch, Olive Tree, iLumina, Logos, and various other programs/platforms. Some of the programs are no longer supported and others are still in service. None though compare to the stability of Logos in my opinion.

Logos appears to be the most progressive of any Bible software company. This is evidenced by its branching out into other faith traditions and programs like NOET. I am impressed not only that Logos is still around but that it has exponentially improved and streamlined the software.

Logos has shown itself, in my personal experience, as being willing to look out for customers and content suppliers equally. I’m not going to go back into the issue I raised last fall, but in retrospect I respect Logos’ policy of protecting content suppliers. For the record, I also feel my main points were clouded by some good intentioned humor, legitimate frustration, and, apologetically, some unhelpful sarcasm. The digital frontier presents new challenges for companies and consumers alike. In my experience Logos is managing this challenge as best it can. I’ve come to the conclusion that Logos’ downloadable delivery format is extremely valuable. I don’t need to go to a bookstore or even wait for Amazon Prime to deliver a resource. Even more so, it protects consumers like me from people trying to sell a content CD while they still use the software! Eventually, I was able to get a hold of the gentleman I bought my CD from and after a lot of work I traced down the man he obtained it from. He had given the CD to a friend who was still using software! 

Logos has shown itself willing to play nice w/ other platforms. Case in point is the new Kindle export feature. In 2014 I bought countless Kindle books. This year? Only books that aren’t in the Logos ecosystem! Logos also exports large sections of books to my printer or pdf file. 

Logos isn’t a means of saving MONEY to me. I can almost always buy a cheaper version of a book used, find it free on some public commons site, or often find it cheaper on another bible study platform. Still, the value of Logos today is worth the premium of the software. The old saying “You get what you pay for” rings true here. The time and space savings is also money to me. 

Logos also isn’t a means of passing on resources to other people. I love buying books so that I can read them, mark them, and then pass them on to someone else. Logos isn’t that. Yet, at the same time, I am able to copy and paste and share digitally portions of resources that I wouldn’t be able to with a book.

Are all of my red flags gone? I do have concerns still, to be honest, about the future of ownership/rental with companies I purchase from like Amazon’s Kindle and Logos. Netflix offers an unlimited, all you can eat buffet of “resources.” Part of me debates whether I should continue buying when someday I may be able to just rent! Yet this is just speculative. What I know is TODAY Logos provides unparalleled tools. 

Tim Challies goes on to make many more points that echo my reason for going “all into” the Logos ecosystem: http://www.challies.com/articles/should-you-make-the-move-to-logos. I was and am utterly impressed by Logos 6. In short, I still don’t know the “long-term” use I’ll get out of Logos or anything else for that matter, but I see immense “value” in Logos “today.” 

 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 9 2015 11:10 AM

Yes

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 9 2015 11:49 AM

178294z:
In short I have decided, for the first time ever, to spend around 75% of my resource budget exclusively on Logos products.

Thanks for sharing your journey. Your explanation is very articulate and sound. I do not think you will regret your decision.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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