Logos 6 Passage Guide includes unpurchased resources

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Posts 117
Murray W | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Nov 1 2014 7:18 PM

I ran a passage guide on Acts 9:1-9 to explore the Ancient Literature section. The first link was "Aug., Serm. (Ben.) 239.6"

I clicked on it and it came up with a window saying "No resources in your library contain this reference. These resources are available for purchase: Saint Augustine: Sermons on the Liturgical Seasons". Clicking on that link brought up another error pane: "You don't have a license to view this resource. Resource Id:LLS:SRMNSLTRGCLSSNS"

Hunting around on the website, I found the Liturgical Seasons resource wasn't available to be purchased except in a $650 set. Sad

I don't want to be given links to items that aren't in my library - that's just frustrating. Is this an error, or a new feature? If so, is it possible to turn it off and only be given links to the things that I can access?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 1 2014 7:24 PM

Yes, the Ancient Literature resource is a curated list - a reference book rather than the result of a search of your personal resources. This has been discussed on other threads and the consensus seems to be for a reference work not "just another search". For many of us it is because we still have significant dead-tree libraries of this material as Logos only recently made a serious effort to expand their offerings.

You can delete the section from the guide but you cannot change how the section works.

Edit: many of these resources are available on the web if you don't own a copy ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 1 2014 7:27 PM

Murray W:
Is this an error, or a new feature?

I don't know if it's a feature, but some folks want this because they have some of these resources in paper and are glad to have a way to have them searched so they can access them.

EDIT: I see MJ has explained this part while I was looking for some info.

Murray W:
If so, is it possible to turn it off and only be given links to the things that I can access?

No it isn't. Sorry. I believe the reason is the computational overhead to identify your resources and restrict the search to those alone. There's been a lot of discussion about this tool. Unfortunately the Forum is difficult to search, but scrolling through a few pages of the Logos 6 Forum you may pick up some other discussion on it.

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Posts 117
Murray W | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 1 2014 8:16 PM

Thanks MJ and Mark,

looks like this will be an on-going annoyance. Good for those with access to the resources but frustrating for others. 

Starting with a reference like the one I quoted above, where are good places to start looking for online resources?

Murray

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 1 2014 8:26 PM

see http://guides.lib.cua.edu/content.php?pid=160231&sid=1635422

http://patristics.org/resources/early-christian-texts/

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3073
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 1 2014 9:09 PM

Murray W:
I don't want to be given links to items that aren't in my library - that's just frustrating.

Amen, thumbs-up, and yowsa yowsa.

I've complained about this in another thread. To me, this can be viewed in one of two ways- (a) a helpful way to find information in resources you don't have, or, (b) a marketing gimmick. I tend to view it as the latter, and find it annoying just like you do.

If I'm doing a lit search in a database, I expect to find references to resources that I must either pay for or use ILL to get. But when I'm using Logos, I expect it to return references to resources *in my library*. Any other kinds of returns should be able to be toggled on and off. If I want a search engine to resources I don't have, I've already got one, and it is free. The name starts with a capital G.

But it ain't my decision.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 1 2014 9:29 PM

Doc B:

I've complained about this in another thread. To me, this can be viewed in one of two ways- (a) a helpful way to find information in resources you don't have, or, (b) a marketing gimmick. I tend to view it as the latter, and find it annoying just like you do.

I look at it this way. This is a feature meets the needs of the same academic users and the non-academic market that the Catholic Topical Index -- people who would expect it to function like other standard references -- Denzinger, Jurgens, an Anabaptist equivalent to Jurgens or like footnotes in standard documents such as the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It just broadens the topical coverage and resources to meet a broad range of theological interests. It is not a marketing ploy - it is a basic research tool. Much of this release expands the usefulness of Logos to the Sunday School teacher/Faith Formation director etc. -- a direction that I strongly applaud. So please, graciously allow a few features to be configured for others.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 1 2014 10:37 PM

MJ. Smith:
So please, graciously allow a few features to be configured for others.

I don't think I'm being either ungracious or refusing to allow a particular configuration. Oh, that I had that power!

I'm simply being annoyed (when I get links to resources that I don't own, if they aren't in a separate section where I can identify them as a marketing tool. Even Google separates sponsored search results from the regular stuff). If this is viewed as being ungracious, I apologize. (Really!)

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 1 2014 11:33 PM

Google is a search engine not a reference work. It is also commercial accepting payment for advertisements.

One needs to compare the curated reference sections of Logos with reference works if one is to have appropriate expectations of them. If you don't understand them as reference works you will continued to be frustrated and annoyed. If you expect them so serve as reference works you may be frustrated with what is missing but you won't be frustrated with what is present.

My concern is that other users reading this thread have accurate expectations. I am also concerned that others who would prefer the results you describe recognize both that it would come at a considerable performance cost and is not a universally desired behavior.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 350
danwdoo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 1 2014 11:38 PM

I'm a new Logos user and am really intrigued by this feature. I have a gold package so my having a resource there has been hit and miss, but I like what I see. Perhaps it would help if Logos, realizing this new feature puts these resources "front and center", made them more accessible through smaller, more affordable packages or even individual titles. Only having them available in a $650 package option just makes them out of reach for too many.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 12:33 AM

danwdoo:

Only having them available in a $650 package option just makes them out of reach for too many.

The normal pattern is for the bundles to eventually be broken up into individual resources. Given how the data was generated, it is true that the data is skewed towards the Fathers of the Church but I expect this to gradually change.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 117
Murray W | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 1:08 AM

Hi MJ,

I hear your concern that Logos might delete this feature because of the other voices (mine included) who don't have access to these other resources and who would prefer them not shown. 

I don't think it beyond the realms of possibilities that, as any search must involve thousands of queries upon the databases, we might have an option that the final list of results be run through one last database (that of the user's resources) and filtered on that.

When every other result in a passage guide is based on the user's resources, I find it niggling that this part of the passage guide doesn't do that. Constantly finding that you are being directed to an error page rather than a resource is really an annoyance.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 1:36 AM

I don't know if this will help but there is a visual indicator as to whether you own the resource or not

In the first screenshot below I am hovering my cursor over a resource I don't own - and all that I get is a popup at the bottom telling me what the resource is

In the second case it is a resource I own and I get a popup with the first part of the article

Murray W:
Constantly finding that you are being directed to an error page rather than a resource is really an annoyance.

It's not actually an error page - it is a tool which explains that you don't have the resource and where you could find it.

Posts 13419
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 1:54 AM

If this section just gave you a link to a resource, and then the resource listed all the references, none of us would complain, because we're used to having links in resources that we can't open. Logos could have done that, but I'm glad the didn't, because having it in the passage guides allows me to have different sorting mechanism, and is much easier to use for longer passages.

Murray W:
I don't think it beyond the realms of possibilities that, as any search must involve thousands of queries upon the databases, we might have an option that the final list of results be run through one last database (that of the user's resources) and filtered on that.

For technical reasons, that not really possible. It's been discussed previously on the forums. In that discussion, I said:

"The difference between this section and others is that this section isn't calculated from your library, but from a database that Logos have created themselves. That's great because it gives us more data…

Of course, it's theoretically possible to hide cross-references that we can't open. But I think this would be very computationally expensive, as Logos would effectively have to attempt to open every cross reference to see what happens, every time we run the report."

The Logos staff member responsible for the feature later replied:

This is basically the reason. Ancient Literature stores a series of datatype references with the relation between the Bible reference and the non-Bible reference classified. They aren't targeted to a particular resource. That way the links to Apostolic Fathers resources work with whatever verison of that resource you prefer (Lightfoot, Lake, Holmes, or Brannan? English, Greek, or German?). Same for Josephus and Philo (English or Greek?) and OT Pseudepigrapha (Charles, or Charlesworth? English or Greek?).

To not display links with no direct target, each link would need to validate on load for a given users library. That would be computationally expensive.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 2:07 AM

danwdoo:
Perhaps it would help if Logos, realizing this new feature puts these resources "front and center", made them more accessible through smaller, more affordable packages or even individual titles. Only having them available in a $650 package option just makes them out of reach for too many

Just to be clear, these resources are not available only in a $650 package.

Dozens of resources are linked to from this section. Most of those resources are available in mid-range base packages. A small minority of the Church Father's resources are only available in large and expensive collections. But you can get a lot of use out of this section without that expense.

It might be worth mentioning that 25 of the 127 Fathers of the Church volumes are available in the Church Father's bundle, which costs no more than $329.

I should also say that there are/have been several resources on Community Pricing or Pre-pub that will be useful in this section. Although a $650 package might be the only way to get a particular resource that's already available, there may be alternatives. For example, I've got a  CP bid on 17 volumes of John Chrysostom's Homilies for $51 (you're too late now, though sorry).

Posts 117
Murray W | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 2:38 AM

I'd happily pay the computational price not to be faced with extra hits from resources (paper or otherwise) that I'm unlikely to have access to. I would still love to have an "Only show available references" option available. The extra chaff just makes using this feature harder.

Posts 1843
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 2:52 AM

Murray W:
These resources are available for purchase: Saint Augustine: Sermons on the Liturgical Seasons". Clicking on that link brought up another error pane: "You don't have a license to view this resource. Resource Id:LLS:SRMNSLTRGCLSSNS"

That volume is on the net at https://archive.org/details/fathersofthechur009512mbp if you are curious

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Posts 117
Murray W | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 2:57 AM

Wow - thanks. That Augustine certainly knew how to preach, didn't he? Smile

Posts 13419
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 4:34 AM

Murray W:
I'd happily pay the computational price

But you don't know what the price is. I'd pay 5 seconds. I'm not sure I'd pay 50 seconds.

Posts 824
GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 4:45 AM

Just to add in my thoughts: for anyone producing academic papers or exegetical work, it is of value to know the references in ancient literature for those resources you don't actually have, and most of them can be found pretty easily on theInternet if you don't have them. I wouldn't want to be marked down for not citing something simply because it's not in my library. Much of the value in the tool for me is that it does refer to resources I don't own. The fact something isn't in my library doesn't mean it is of no relevance. Where commentaries refer to resources I don't own they still have hyperlinks to them and I wouldn't want it any other way. 

I suspect there's a marketing opportunity here that someone at Logos will soon be onto to produce an "Ancient Literature" bundle containing most or all of the resources that are referred to in the curated links. 


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