Logos 6 Passage Guide includes unpurchased resources

Page 2 of 3 (58 items) < Previous 1 2 3 Next >
This post has 57 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 1843
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 5:15 AM

Murray W:
That Augustine certainly knew how to preach, didn't he?

Oh yeah...  Before he was a Christian Bishop he had worked his way up as a teacher of rhetoric (in a culture that VERY highly valued rhetoric) from a quite provincial background to the Capital of the Western Roman Empire.  While classical rhetorical techniques are a bit different from today's, he is still a gifted speaker and writer - and still worth consulting, imho.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

Posts 95
Jack Nørdam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 12:17 PM

Murray W:

When every other result in a passage guide is based on the user's resources, I find it niggling that this part of the passage guide doesn't do that. Constantly finding that you are being directed to an error page rather than a resource is really an annoyance.

Yes, where do all these error pages come from? It is really irritating. Can't you get rid of this?

Posts 1150
Anthony H | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 12:35 PM

Murray W:

I ran a passage guide on Acts 9:1-9 to explore the Ancient Literature section. The first link was "Aug., Serm. (Ben.) 239.6"

I clicked on it and it came up with a window saying "No resources in your library contain this reference. These resources are available for purchase: Saint Augustine: Sermons on the Liturgical Seasons". Clicking on that link brought up another error pane: "You don't have a license to view this resource. Resource Id:LLS:SRMNSLTRGCLSSNS"

Hunting around on the website, I found the Liturgical Seasons resource wasn't available to be purchased except in a $650 set. Sad

I don't want to be given links to items that aren't in my library - that's just frustrating. Is this an error, or a new feature? If so, is it possible to turn it off and only be given links to the things that I can access?

MJ. Smith:

Yes, the Ancient Literature resource is a curated list - a reference book rather than the result of a search of your personal resources. This has been discussed on other threads and the consensus seems to be for a reference work not "just another search". For many of us it is because we still have significant dead-tree libraries of this material as Logos only recently made a serious effort to expand their offerings.

You can delete the section from the guide but you cannot change how the section works.

Edit: many of these resources are available on the web if you don't own a copy ...

Rick Brannan (Faithlife) made ref. to this in another post. This is one that came to mind and MJ may be alluding to:
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/93446/648607.aspx#648607

It is also somewhat similar that in L3 you could have resources that were downloaded but not unlocked for use yet you could still search them to cite/reference them.  (Hopefully I'm not repeating here.)

Posts 13419
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 1:01 PM

Jack Nørdam:
Yes, where do all these error pages come from? It is really irritating. Can't you get rid of this?

They're not error pages. They're letting you know how to get the resource if you want it.

There's a very simple way of not getting them - don't click links to resources where there is no hover text (the lack of hover text is a sure sign you don't own the resource the link points to).

Posts 117
Murray W | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 1:07 PM

Hi Mark,

considering the speed with which Logos looks up things in the "Power Lookup" panel, I'm not terribly concerned that the speed hit would be horrific to not even load, but just probe the availability of a destination.

I'll compensate by switching off GracewayMedia, SermonAudio, SermonCentral and Logos Media. Stick out tongue

Posts 160
David Medina | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 1:22 PM

GregW:

Just to add in my thoughts: for anyone producing academic papers or exegetical work, it is of value to know the references in ancient literature for those resources you don't actually have, and most of them can be found pretty easily on theInternet if you don't have them. I wouldn't want to be marked down for not citing something simply because it's not in my library. Much of the value in the tool for me is that it does refer to resources I don't own. The fact something isn't in my library doesn't mean it is of no relevance. Where commentaries refer to resources I don't own they still have hyperlinks to them and I wouldn't want it any other way. 

Amen, Amen, Amen.

Posts 117
Murray W | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 1:24 PM

Ummm - should you really be citing things if you haven't read them?

I'm not proposing that we delete this, just to have it as an option for those who aren't in academia, or have money to spend on expensive/extensive collections.

Posts 2
Jeffrey King | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 1:50 PM

There should be an option to display or not to display.  I do not want to waste my time trying to read an item, just to have it tell me I have to buy the resource. I made the choice to not buy it when I bought the package in the first place.

The computational price should be minimal, unless the developers don't know to do this efficiently.   Email me and I will help or find someone who can.  

From my perspective, Logos borders on doing business the way of the world does business. Especially with their marketing.  (How much does it really cost to convert books that are no longer in copyright?)  Also, after 18 months, I am still waiting on my community pricing bid to be honored and fulfilled.  

Posts 824
GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 2:40 PM

Murray W:

Ummm - should you really be citing things if you haven't read them?

I'm not proposing that we delete this, just to have it as an option for those who aren't in academia, or have money to spend on expensive/extensive collections.

We're not advocating citing stuff you haven't read - just using the AL feature to point you to stuff you wouldn't otherwise find, so that you can read it either online or on your next visit to a dead-tree library.


Running Logos 6 Platinum and Logos Now on Surface Pro 4, 8 GB RAM, 256GB SSD, i5

Posts 117
Murray W | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 2:59 PM

It seems that a lot of us who haven't been told that it isn't an error page think that it's an error page. 

In Logos we are accustomed to clicking a link and it opening in our library. If we click something and we get a response that the resource can't be opened for whatever reason, it feels and acts like an error page. 

Posts 13419
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 3:08 PM

Murray W:
In Logos we are accustomed to clicking a link and it opening in our library

In resources, there's no way of hiding links to resources you don't own. So most users will be accustomed to occasionally clicking links we don't own (which opens up this same window that we're discussing).

The one thing that is new, and that we're not used to (as someone has said) is seeing links like that in our guides.

Posts 33258
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 3:08 PM

Murray W:

It seems that a lot of us who haven't been told that it isn't an error page think that it's an error page. 

In Logos we are accustomed to clicking a link and it opening in our library. If we click something and we get a response that the resource can't be opened for whatever reason, it feels and acts like an error page. 

I believe Verbum users are used to it ... and I don't recall it as an issue when it was introduced. It's just a matter of getting you head around the difference between a page populated via a search and one populated via a reference resource. Reading Lists is an example of a long time feature not filtered by you library.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3073
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 5:16 PM

Mark Barnes:

So most users will be accustomed to occasionally clicking links we don't own (which opens up this same window that we're discussing).

The one thing that is new, and that we're not used to (as someone has said) is seeing links like that in our guides.

Mark, remember the population that inhabits the forums is much more likely to be the higher-end users and the academics. Turning Logos into a ERIC-type database will be a big mistake for the rest of us.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 3073
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 5:18 PM

Murray W:
It seems that a lot of us who haven't been told that it isn't an error page think that it's an error page. 

In the immortal words of Bill Gates, "That's a feature, not a bug."

I'm with you on this; if this problem grows, it will end up being a deal-breaker for the non-academic (etc.) users. It will make the guides next to useless.

Think, people. How many possible hits are out there on resources that you don't own. Do you really want all these?

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 3073
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 5:21 PM

GregW:
We're not advocating citing stuff you haven't read - just using the AL feature to point you to stuff you wouldn't otherwise find, so that you can read it either online or on your next visit to a dead-tree library.

Greg, this is the job for the "dead-tree library" search engine, not the home computer bible software. If Logos ever really got good at finding stuff you wouldn't otherwise find, it would become unusable to most non-academic users.

Right now, it's not good at it. The list of hits on resources I don't own is relatively small (but still annoying). If it becomes efficient, it'll be like the guy who went and did a google search for a particular place to eat.  Google said, "We found your restaurant. It's on earth."

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 33258
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 5:22 PM

Doc B:

Mark, remember the population that inhabits the forums is much more likely to be the higher-end users and the academics. Turning Logos into a ERIC-type database will be a big mistake for the rest of us.

Mark's point is simply that every resource you own may have footnotes and bibliographic links to resources you do not own. If one does not want ERIC-type features one can simply remover the section from their guide or always keep it closed. This is no different than sermon helps, visual aids, linguistic tools ... each of which is useful to a particular subset of Logos users. I would expect that younger users when assume that Logos had ERIC-type capabilities ... and hope Logos adds that to their future features.

I understand why people complain when they lose a function that they use regularly. I don't understand why people complain when a function is added that they do not use and need not be seen.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 13419
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 2 2014 5:44 PM

MJ. Smith:
Mark's point is simply that every resource you own may have footnotes and bibliographic links to resources you do not own.

Precisely.

MJ. Smith:
I don't understand why people complain when a function is added that they do not use and need not be seen.

I don't think that's what's happening here. People are 'complaining' that the function doesn't work in the way that they would like. From a purely functional view, I'm inclined to agree. However, I because (a)  hovering tells me whether I own it or not, and (b) it would slow things down to remove resources I don't own, and (c) knowing that there's more resources out there has actually proved useful, then I now like it how it is.

Posts 3073
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 7:15 AM

Mark Barnes:
I don't think that's what's happening here.

Thank you, Mark!

Mark Barnes:
because (a)  hovering tells me whether I own it or not,

If they would change 'hovering' to 'greyed out' or something similar that could be seen by scanning with the eyes, I think there would be less frustration with the feature/bug.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 8660
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 7:37 AM

Doc B:
If they would change 'hovering' to 'greyed out' or something similar that could be seen by scanning with the eyes, I think there would be less frustration with the feature/bug.
Actually that was discussed. But it also comes at a computational cost.  Logos users are historically very impatient when it comes to waiting for results from a search or guide. (irony).

To generate greyed out links would require a first pass to fill the report as you see it, and a second very intensive search to identify EVERY link provided for it's inclusion or exclusion in your library. Because it is (my words) reverse filtering the list, it is very cpu intensive.  

That said, if the section proves to be a feature-non-grata which someone would rather not see at all, Logos does provide the capacity to disable/hide a section by creating a custom guide

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 7:52 AM

The star people are cracking me up (as usual).  You're saying the Cited By panels can track my Bible paging in real time (4 on a single window no less), but a PG can't quickly index to the user's library?  We are talking the 1980s here.

Why is it so troublesome to admit Logos wants to sell books during your Bible study?  Kind of like the lady that sells peanuts during church services?  Well, gee, people are hungry during the sermon. 

 If indeed I'm hot on the trail of an obscure concept, a google books is far more efficient (and linkes to Logos and Kindle too, plus PDFs!).

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Page 2 of 3 (58 items) < Previous 1 2 3 Next > | RSS