Logos 6 Passage Guide includes unpurchased resources

Yes, the Ancient Literature resource is a curated list - a reference book rather than the result of a search of your personal resources. This has been discussed on other threads and the consensus seems to be for a reference work not "just another search". For many of us it is because we still have significant dead-tree libraries of this material as Logos only recently made a serious effort to expand their offerings.

You can delete the section from the guide but you cannot change how the section works.

Edit: many of these resources are available on the web if you don't own a copy ...

Mark Smith

Is this an error, or a new feature?

I don't know if it's a feature, but some folks want this because they have some of these resources in paper and are glad to have a way to have them searched so they can access them.

EDIT: I see MJ has explained this part while I was looking for some info.

If so, is it possible to turn it off and only be given links to the things that I can access?

No it isn't. Sorry. I believe the reason is the computational overhead to identify your resources and restrict the search to those alone. There's been a lot of discussion about this tool. Unfortunately the Forum is difficult to search, but scrolling through a few pages of the Logos 6 Forum you may pick up some other discussion on it.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651077#Comment_651077

Thanks MJ and Mark,

looks like this will be an on-going annoyance. Good for those with access to the resources but frustrating for others.

Starting with a reference like the one I quoted above, where are good places to start looking for online resources?

Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651102#Comment_651102

see http://guides.lib.cua.edu/content.php?pid=160231&sid=1635422

http://patristics.org/resources/early-christian-texts/

I don't want to be given links to items that aren't in my library - that's just frustrating.

Amen, thumbs-up, and yowsa yowsa.

I've complained about this in another thread. To me, this can be viewed in one of two ways- (a) a helpful way to find information in resources you don't have, or, (b) a marketing gimmick. I tend to view it as the latter, and find it annoying just like you do.

If I'm doing a lit search in a database, I expect to find references to resources that I must either pay for or use ILL to get. But when I'm using Logos, I expect it to return references to resources *in my library*. Any other kinds of returns should be able to be toggled on and off. If I want a search engine to resources I don't have, I've already got one, and it is free. The name starts with a capital G.

But it ain't my decision.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651147#Comment_651147

I've complained about this in another thread. To me, this can be viewed in one of two ways- (a) a helpful way to find information in resources you don't have, or, (b) a marketing gimmick. I tend to view it as the latter, and find it annoying just like you do.

I look at it this way. This is a feature meets the needs of the same academic users and the non-academic market that the Catholic Topical Index -- people who would expect it to function like other standard references -- Denzinger, Jurgens, an Anabaptist equivalent to Jurgens or like footnotes in standard documents such as the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It just broadens the topical coverage and resources to meet a broad range of theological interests. It is not a marketing ploy - it is a basic research tool. Much of this release expands the usefulness of Logos to the Sunday School teacher/Faith Formation director etc. -- a direction that I strongly applaud. So please, graciously allow a few features to be configured for others.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651158#Comment_651158

So please, graciously allow a few features to be configured for others.

I don't think I'm being either ungracious or refusing to allow a particular configuration. Oh, that I had that power!

I'm simply being annoyed (when I get links to resources that I don't own, if they aren't in a separate section where I can identify them as a marketing tool. Even Google separates sponsored search results from the regular stuff). If this is viewed as being ungracious, I apologize. (Really!)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651184#Comment_651184

Google is a search engine not a reference work. It is also commercial accepting payment for advertisements.

One needs to compare the curated reference sections of Logos with reference works if one is to have appropriate expectations of them. If you don't understand them as reference works you will continued to be frustrated and annoyed. If you expect them so serve as reference works you may be frustrated with what is missing but you won't be frustrated with what is present.

My concern is that other users reading this thread have accurate expectations. I am also concerned that others who would prefer the results you describe recognize both that it would come at a considerable performance cost and is not a universally desired behavior.

danwdoo

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651184#Comment_651184

I'm a new Logos user and am really intrigued by this feature. I have a gold package so my having a resource there has been hit and miss, but I like what I see. Perhaps it would help if Logos, realizing this new feature puts these resources "front and center", made them more accessible through smaller, more affordable packages or even individual titles. Only having them available in a $650 package option just makes them out of reach for too many.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651202#Comment_651202

Only having them available in a $650 package option just makes them out of reach for too many.

The normal pattern is for the bundles to eventually be broken up into individual resources. Given how the data was generated, it is true that the data is skewed towards the Fathers of the Church but I expect this to gradually change.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651222#Comment_651222

Hi MJ,

I hear your concern that Logos might delete this feature because of the other voices (mine included) who don't have access to these other resources and who would prefer them not shown.

I don't think it beyond the realms of possibilities that, as any search must involve thousands of queries upon the databases, we might have an option that the final list of results be run through one last database (that of the user's resources) and filtered on that.

When every other result in a passage guide is based on the user's resources, I find it niggling that this part of the passage guide doesn't do that. Constantly finding that you are being directed to an error page rather than a resource is really an annoyance.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651248#Comment_651248

I don't know if this will help but there is a visual indicator as to whether you own the resource or not

In the first screenshot below I am hovering my cursor over a resource I don't own - and all that I get is a popup at the bottom telling me what the resource is

In the second case it is a resource I own and I get a popup with the first part of the article

Constantly finding that you are being directed to an error page rather than a resource is really an annoyance.

It's not actually an error page - it is a tool which explains that you don't have the resource and where you could find it.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651248#Comment_651248

If this section just gave you a link to a resource, and then the resource listed all the references, none of us would complain, because we're used to having links in resources that we can't open. Logos could have done that, but I'm glad the didn't, because having it in the passage guides allows me to have different sorting mechanism, and is much easier to use for longer passages.

I don't think it beyond the realms of possibilities that, as any search must involve thousands of queries upon the databases, we might have an option that the final list of results be run through one last database (that of the user's resources) and filtered on that.

For technical reasons, that not really possible. It's been discussed previously on the forums. In that discussion, I said:

"The difference between this section and others is that this section isn't calculated from your library, but from a database that Logos have created themselves. That's great because it gives us more data…

Of course, it's theoretically possible to hide cross-references that we can't open. But I think this would be very computationally expensive, as Logos would effectively have to attempt to open every cross reference to see what happens, every time we run the report."

The Logos staff member responsible for the feature later replied:

This is basically the reason. Ancient Literature stores a series of datatype references with the relation between the Bible reference and the non-Bible reference classified. They aren't targeted to a particular resource. That way the links to Apostolic Fathers resources work with whatever verison of that resource you prefer (Lightfoot, Lake, Holmes, or Brannan? English, Greek, or German?). Same for Josephus and Philo (English or Greek?) and OT Pseudepigrapha (Charles, or Charlesworth? English or Greek?).

To not display links with no direct target, each link would need to validate on load for a given users library. That would be computationally expensive.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651202#Comment_651202

Perhaps it would help if Logos, realizing this new feature puts these resources "front and center", made them more accessible through smaller, more affordable packages or even individual titles. Only having them available in a $650 package option just makes them out of reach for too many

Just to be clear, these resources are not available only in a $650 package.

Dozens of resources are linked to from this section. Most of those resources are available in mid-range base packages. A small minority of the Church Father's resources are only available in large and expensive collections. But you can get a lot of use out of this section without that expense.

It might be worth mentioning that 25 of the 127 Fathers of the Church volumes are available in the Church Father's bundle, which costs no more than $329.

I should also say that there are/have been several resources on Community Pricing or Pre-pub that will be useful in this section. Although a $650 package might be the only way to get a particular resource that's already available, there may be alternatives. For example, I've got a CP bid on 17 volumes of John Chrysostom's Homilies for $51 (you're too late now, though sorry).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651259#Comment_651259

I'd happily pay the computational price not to be faced with extra hits from resources (paper or otherwise) that I'm unlikely to have access to. I would still love to have an "Only show available references" option available. The extra chaff just makes using this feature harder.

Ken McGuire

These resources are available for purchase: Saint Augustine: Sermons on the Liturgical Seasons". Clicking on that link brought up another error pane: "You don't have a license to view this resource. Resource Id:LLS:SRMNSLTRGCLSSNS"

That volume is on the net at https://archive.org/details/fathersofthechur009512mbp if you are curious

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651272#Comment_651272

Wow - thanks. That Augustine certainly knew how to preach, didn't he? [:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651267#Comment_651267

I'd happily pay the computational price

But you don't know what the price is. I'd pay 5 seconds. I'm not sure I'd pay 50 seconds.

GregW

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651200#Comment_651200

Just to add in my thoughts: for anyone producing academic papers or exegetical work, it is of value to know the references in ancient literature for those resources you don't actually have, and most of them can be found pretty easily on theInternet if you don't have them. I wouldn't want to be marked down for not citing something simply because it's not in my library. Much of the value in the tool for me is that it does refer to resources I don't own. The fact something isn't in my library doesn't mean it is of no relevance. Where commentaries refer to resources I don't own they still have hyperlinks to them and I wouldn't want it any other way.

I suspect there's a marketing opportunity here that someone at Logos will soon be onto to produce an "Ancient Literature" bundle containing most or all of the resources that are referred to in the curated links.

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651274#Comment_651274

That Augustine certainly knew how to preach, didn't he?

Oh yeah... Before he was a Christian Bishop he had worked his way up as a teacher of rhetoric (in a culture that VERY highly valued rhetoric) from a quite provincial background to the Capital of the Western Roman Empire. While classical rhetorical techniques are a bit different from today's, he is still a gifted speaker and writer - and still worth consulting, imho.

Jack Nørdam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651248#Comment_651248

When every other result in a passage guide is based on the user's resources, I find it niggling that this part of the passage guide doesn't do that. Constantly finding that you are being directed to an error page rather than a resource is really an annoyance.

Yes, where do all these error pages come from? It is really irritating. Can't you get rid of this?

Anthony H

I ran a passage guide on Acts 9:1-9 to explore the Ancient Literature section. The first link was "Aug., Serm. (Ben.) 239.6"

I clicked on it and it came up with a window saying "No resources in your library contain this reference. These resources are available for purchase: Saint Augustine: Sermons on the Liturgical Seasons". Clicking on that link brought up another error pane: "You don't have a license to view this resource. Resource Id:LLS:SRMNSLTRGCLSSNS"

Hunting around on the website, I found the Liturgical Seasons resource wasn't available to be purchased except in a $650 set.

I don't want to be given links to items that aren't in my library - that's just frustrating. Is this an error, or a new feature? If so, is it possible to turn it off and only be given links to the things that I can access?

Yes, the Ancient Literature resource is a curated list - a reference book rather than the result of a search of your personal resources. This has been discussed on other threads and the consensus seems to be for a reference work not "just another search". For many of us it is because we still have significant dead-tree libraries of this material as Logos only recently made a serious effort to expand their offerings.

You can delete the section from the guide but you cannot change how the section works.

Edit: many of these resources are available on the web if you don't own a copy ...

Rick Brannan (Faithlife) made ref. to this in another post. This is one that came to mind and MJ may be alluding to:
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/93446/648607.aspx#648607

It is also somewhat similar that in L3 you could have resources that were downloaded but not unlocked for use yet you could still search them to cite/reference them. (Hopefully I'm not repeating here.)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651512#Comment_651512

Yes, where do all these error pages come from? It is really irritating. Can't you get rid of this?

They're not error pages. They're letting you know how to get the resource if you want it.

There's a very simple way of not getting them - don't click links to resources where there is no hover text (the lack of hover text is a sure sign you don't own the resource the link points to).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651307#Comment_651307

Hi Mark,

considering the speed with which Logos looks up things in the "Power Lookup" panel, I'm not terribly concerned that the speed hit would be horrific to not even load, but just probe the availability of a destination.

I'll compensate by switching off GracewayMedia, SermonAudio, SermonCentral and Logos Media. [:P]

David Medina

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651315#Comment_651315

Just to add in my thoughts: for anyone producing academic papers or exegetical work, it is of value to know the references in ancient literature for those resources you don't actually have, and most of them can be found pretty easily on theInternet if you don't have them. I wouldn't want to be marked down for not citing something simply because it's not in my library. Much of the value in the tool for me is that it does refer to resources I don't own. The fact something isn't in my library doesn't mean it is of no relevance. Where commentaries refer to resources I don't own they still have hyperlinks to them and I wouldn't want it any other way.

Amen, Amen, Amen.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651559#Comment_651559

Ummm - should you really be citing things if you haven't read them?

I'm not proposing that we delete this, just to have it as an option for those who aren't in academia, or have money to spend on expensive/extensive collections.

Jeffrey King

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651267#Comment_651267

There should be an option to display or not to display. I do not want to waste my time trying to read an item, just to have it tell me I have to buy the resource. I made the choice to not buy it when I bought the package in the first place.

The computational price should be minimal, unless the developers don't know to do this efficiently. Email me and I will help or find someone who can.

From my perspective, Logos borders on doing business the way of the world does business. Especially with their marketing. (How much does it really cost to convert books that are no longer in copyright?) Also, after 18 months, I am still waiting on my community pricing bid to be honored and fulfilled.

GregW

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651564#Comment_651564

Ummm - should you really be citing things if you haven't read them?

I'm not proposing that we delete this, just to have it as an option for those who aren't in academia, or have money to spend on expensive/extensive collections.

We're not advocating citing stuff you haven't read - just using the AL feature to point you to stuff you wouldn't otherwise find, so that you can read it either online or on your next visit to a dead-tree library.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651611#Comment_651611

It seems that a lot of us who haven't been told that it isn't an error page think that it's an error page.

In Logos we are accustomed to clicking a link and it opening in our library. If we click something and we get a response that the resource can't be opened for whatever reason, it feels and acts like an error page.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651617#Comment_651617

In Logos we are accustomed to clicking a link and it opening in our library

In resources, there's no way of hiding links to resources you don't own. So most users will be accustomed to occasionally clicking links we don't own (which opens up this same window that we're discussing).

The one thing that is new, and that we're not used to (as someone has said) is seeing links like that in our guides.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651617#Comment_651617

It seems that a lot of us who haven't been told that it isn't an error page think that it's an error page.

In Logos we are accustomed to clicking a link and it opening in our library. If we click something and we get a response that the resource can't be opened for whatever reason, it feels and acts like an error page.

I believe Verbum users are used to it ... and I don't recall it as an issue when it was introduced. It's just a matter of getting you head around the difference between a page populated via a search and one populated via a reference resource. Reading Lists is an example of a long time feature not filtered by you library.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651624#Comment_651624

So most users will be accustomed to occasionally clicking links we don't own (which opens up this same window that we're discussing).

The one thing that is new, and that we're not used to (as someone has said) is seeing links like that in our guides.

Mark, remember the population that inhabits the forums is much more likely to be the higher-end users and the academics. Turning Logos into a ERIC-type database will be a big mistake for the rest of us.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651617#Comment_651617

It seems that a lot of us who haven't been told that it isn't an error page think that it's an error page.

In the immortal words of Bill Gates, "That's a feature, not a bug."

I'm with you on this; if this problem grows, it will end up being a deal-breaker for the non-academic (etc.) users. It will make the guides next to useless.

Think, people. How many possible hits are out there on resources that you don't own. Do you really want all these?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651611#Comment_651611

We're not advocating citing stuff you haven't read - just using the AL feature to point you to stuff you wouldn't otherwise find, so that you can read it either online or on your next visit to a dead-tree library.

Greg, this is the job for the "dead-tree library" search engine, not the home computer bible software. If Logos ever really got good at finding stuff you wouldn't otherwise find, it would become unusable to most non-academic users.

Right now, it's not good at it. The list of hits on resources I don't own is relatively small (but still annoying). If it becomes efficient, it'll be like the guy who went and did a google search for a particular place to eat. Google said, "We found your restaurant. It's on earth."

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651727#Comment_651727

Mark, remember the population that inhabits the forums is much more likely to be the higher-end users and the academics. Turning Logos into a ERIC-type database will be a big mistake for the rest of us.

Mark's point is simply that every resource you own may have footnotes and bibliographic links to resources you do not own. If one does not want ERIC-type features one can simply remover the section from their guide or always keep it closed. This is no different than sermon helps, visual aids, linguistic tools ... each of which is useful to a particular subset of Logos users. I would expect that younger users when assume that Logos had ERIC-type capabilities ... and hope Logos adds that to their future features.

I understand why people complain when they lose a function that they use regularly. I don't understand why people complain when a function is added that they do not use and need not be seen.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651736#Comment_651736

Mark's point is simply that every resource you own may have footnotes and bibliographic links to resources you do not own.

Precisely.

I don't understand why people complain when a function is added that they do not use and need not be seen.

I don't think that's what's happening here. People are 'complaining' that the function doesn't work in the way that they would like. From a purely functional view, I'm inclined to agree. However, I because (a) hovering tells me whether I own it or not, and (b) it would slow things down to remove resources I don't own, and (c) knowing that there's more resources out there has actually proved useful, then I now like it how it is.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/651755#Comment_651755

I don't think that's what's happening here.

Thank you, Mark!

because (a) hovering tells me whether I own it or not,

If they would change 'hovering' to 'greyed out' or something similar that could be seen by scanning with the eyes, I think there would be less frustration with the feature/bug.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/652071#Comment_652071

If they would change 'hovering' to 'greyed out' or something similar that could be seen by scanning with the eyes, I think there would be less frustration with the feature/bug.

Actually that was discussed. But it also comes at a computational cost. Logos users are historically very impatient when it comes to waiting for results from a search or guide. (irony).

To generate greyed out links would require a first pass to fill the report as you see it, and a second very intensive search to identify EVERY link provided for it's inclusion or exclusion in your library. Because it is (my words) reverse filtering the list, it is very cpu intensive.

That said, if the section proves to be a feature-non-grata which someone would rather not see at all, Logos does provide the capacity to disable/hide a section by creating a custom guide.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/652088#Comment_652088

The star people are cracking me up (as usual). You're saying the Cited By panels can track my Bible paging in real time (4 on a single window no less), but a PG can't quickly index to the user's library? We are talking the 1980s here.

Why is it so troublesome to admit Logos wants to sell books during your Bible study? Kind of like the lady that sells peanuts during church services? Well, gee, people are hungry during the sermon.

If indeed I'm hot on the trail of an obscure concept, a google books is far more efficient (and linkes to Logos and Kindle too, plus PDFs!).

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/652100#Comment_652100

The star people are cracking me up (as usual). You're saying the Cited By panels can track my Bible paging in real time (4 on a single window no less), but a PG can't quickly index to the user's library? We are talking the 1980s here.

Why is it so troublesome to admit Logos wants to sell books during your Bible study? Kind of like the lady that sells peanuts during church services? Well, gee, people are hungry during the sermon.

If indeed I'm hot on the trail of an obscure concept, a google books is far more efficient (and linkes to Logos and Kindle too, plus PDFs!).

I can easily see that there is two sides to providing this info... unlike the bookstore results this is a little less obvious. Nevertheless, I can easily take the listed result that I don't have access to within my L6 library and go online and read it without the desire to go purchase the book from Logos...or as R.B. said, have a look at it the next time I'm at the physical library..plus I may have it in print.

EDIT: There are many things done in the name of convenience that have nothing to do with our convenience but rather with theirs...nevertheless I don't think the adding of this feature is a diabolical plot to get into our wallets, if it were it would smack of marketing.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/652100#Comment_652100

You're saying the Cited By panels can track my Bible paging in real time (4 on a single window no less), but a PG can't quickly index to the user's library?

I have never used the Cited By tool, because it's horribly slow and drags my entire study down with it (and that's with a fast i7, fast SSD and 16GB RAM).

And no-one's saying that it's impossible to achieve what people want. All I'm doing is explaining why it works the way it does at the moment, and why it's non-trivial to change. If there's a demand (which is mixed at the moment), then I'm sure Logos will find a way of doing it at a reasonable speed.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/652117#Comment_652117

Mark, you need to upgrade to a 5-year old Lenovo. Without a fast i7, fast SSD and 16gb ram. Works great.

And Anthony ... they sell books. That's what they do. Just like at church, it's the peanuts. The sermon is for free.

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/652137#Comment_652137

Mark, you need to upgrade to a 5-year old Lenovo. Without a fast i7, fast SSD and 16gb ram. Works great.

And Anthony ... they sell books. That's what they do. Just like at church, it's the peanuts. The sermon is for free.

I'm not disagreeing with you on that. They need to sale books and upgrades. The commercial momentum must continue to move or it will require the exfoliation of employees and all innovation will stop and Bible study will slip into the dark ages.

..but with many things commercial @Logostopia...the stench of the over sale is not present.[:P]

EDIT: This time I didn't delete to maintain the illusion. [:D]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/652137#Comment_652137

Works great.

You're assuming we have similar sized libraries and similar numbers of collections. If your 5-year old Lenovo works great for you, that's great. But it won't work great for me, with my workflows and my library.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/652152#Comment_652152

Mark, you're getting your Logos apologetics mixed up (yes, I'm smiling). You can't put your whole library in a layout for the CitedBy guy to track. Large libraries don't impact CitedBy guy unless you want a million of them in your workflows. And even a 50,000 line library table is scannable in a blink of the eye. That's 1980.

Joshua Coady

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/652162#Comment_652162

For each item, they can get it greyed out at least as fast as they can show the popup that has or doesnt have text. Likely faster since they dont have to actually draw the popup.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/652162#Comment_652162

Large libraries don't impact CitedBy guy unless you want a million of them in your workflows.

Excuse me? The cited by tool scans all selected collections for the current reference. It's performance is therefore hugely dependent on the size of your library and the number of collections you have.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/652207#Comment_652207

I think we've identified the problem on your PC. You may not need to upgrade.

You're not supposed to have CitedBy scan your whole library .... Civil War, England titles, etc. Just the part of interest. In another thread today, we were discussing Church Fathers, a set of books that Logos quickly scans through its index in micro-seconds. And Church Fathers is far larger than your library.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/652189#Comment_652189

For each item, they can get it greyed out at least as fast as they can show the popup that has or doesnt have text. Likely faster since they dont have to actually draw the popup.

Sure. Let's imagine it can be done in 1/100th of a second per reference on average hardware. That's pretty quick. But my passage guide on Matthew 1-2 (not a made up example, I was doing it this morning), now takes 3.36 second longer to run than before. And my custom passage guide that includes only this section, now takes more than a minute to run for the book of Exodus. To get that to be reasonable, the speed would have to be brought down to 1/1,000th of a second, at least.

It can be done, of that's there's no doubt. Nobody has said it's computationally impossible — only that it's computationally expensive. And that was given as a reason why it's not been done already, not as a reason why it never will be done.