Disappointed with my L6 experience

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Posts 11
Spence McConnell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 7:10 AM

I have been reading through this post with interest because I am experiencing many of the same problems that are being discussed here.  Would you please post how you reset your permissions and deleted your plist files?  Or if you would post a link to an existing page that gives me that information, I would be very grateful.  I have addressed the handoff and bluetooth settings, but am not sure how to do the others and I am willing to try anything at this point.

Thanks!

Posts 13386
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 7:18 AM

Sean McIntyre:
If I am simply downloading the full version of resources that I already have, will Logos recognise them as updated versions or bypass because they already exists?

Each file has a signature which includes a timestamp of when it was built. The scan will recognise the timestamp and act accordingly.

Posts 13386
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 7:19 AM

Spence McConnell:
Would you please post how you reset your permissions and deleted your plist files?  Or if you would post a link to an existing page that gives me that information, I would be very grateful.

This is the page that has helped most people (but not everyone): http://osxdaily.com/2014/10/25/fix-wi-fi-problems-os-x-yosemite/ 

Posts 8148
LogosEmployee

Russ White:
then the problem is clearly in the way the Logos application is interacting with the IP stack on the O/S

We're not doing anything so low-level. Here's our download code:

	m_download = [[NSURLDownload alloc] initWithRequest:urlRequest delegate:self];
	[urlRequest release];
	urlRequest = nil;
	[m_download setDestination:[m_currentFile destination] allowOverwrite:YES];

(Cf. https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/URLLoadingSystem/Tasks/UsingNSURLDownload.html

It's hard to argue that "the problem is clearly here" (unless you're saying that it's clearly a bug in Yosemite... :) ).

Posts 281
Sean McIntyre | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 10:22 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

Russ White:
then the problem is clearly in the way the Logos application is interacting with the IP stack on the O/S

We're not doing anything so low-level. Here's our download code:

	m_download = [[NSURLDownload alloc] initWithRequest:urlRequest delegate:self];
	[urlRequest release];
	urlRequest = nil;
	[m_download setDestination:[m_currentFile destination] allowOverwrite:YES];

(Cf. https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/URLLoadingSystem/Tasks/UsingNSURLDownload.html

It's hard to argue that "the problem is clearly here" (unless you're saying that it's clearly a bug in Yosemite... :) ).

Just want to study my Bible

Posts 397
LogosEmployee
Adam Borries (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 10:40 AM

Hi, Sean, 

I'm sorry this is still an issue for you. We've updated/improved the OSDaily instructions, and posted them here: https://www.logos.com/support/logos6/mac/error-yosemite 
Please try that solution one more time.

There is is also a rumor that Apple will be addressing this bug in the next update to Yosemite. 

I hope that helps. 

Adam Borries | Product Manager, Logos desktop application

Message me on Faithlife.com >>

Posts 28122
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 11:22 AM

Bradley and Adam - 

You keep pointing to the issue in Yosemite (and it clearly IS an issue with Yosemite and Logos), but the "known issue" in Yosemite is with WIFI. Since many of us have attempted a wired connection with mixed results at best, doesn't that undercut your position? 

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 11:59 AM

How many of these do you open at once? If you're opening several downloads in parallel of very large files, you might be hitting a bug in the way the IP stack works on the local box that other folks aren't hitting, particularly across a link with low bandwidth and high delay. The clue is the ability to download these same files through a web browser in much shorter time -- there's some way the web browser is downloading files that Logos isn't.

It might be useful to put in a setting to limit the number of files being downloaded at once if you're opening multiples in parallel (like most browsers have the option to control the number of TCP sessions opened at once, for the same reason -- but most browsers also interact with the TCP stack on a deeper level than this, too, by pushing data at the end of segments and the like.

Russ

Posts 8148
LogosEmployee

Russ White:
How many of these do you open at once?

At most 4.

Posts 13386
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 2:45 PM

Sean,

How are you getting on?

Mark

Posts 28122
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 3:29 PM

Sean McIntyre:

No, I'm following Mark's advice and downloading the files externally using a download manager and the URL's that I ripped from the Logos database

Download is maybe 100 times faster.

Did that rate hold for you? Were you successful?

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 3:41 PM

Even that might be too many for such large files over a really low bandwidth with a long delay/jitter. Once you drop a TCP ack, the window will really close down (depending on the O/S) -- and even if they've implemented fast start, four sessions dropping even a single ack every now and again will slam the transfer speed. There are several things here that going to make it worse --

- You're transferring over port 80 (using an HTTP get) rather than 20/21 (FTP). Most of the routers and servers on the internet are configured to optimize lots of smaller flows on port 80, so you're bumping against what provider's normally see on those ports, and hence you're probably losing a lot of packets in the network on queue drops along the path.

- You're talking to a system that's in a country without a lot of high speed internet links. Most the equipment is probably older, has shallower queues, and probably isn't the "best in class" configuration on top of it. Not to say the people running this gear are dumb, it's just that they probably don't have the training, exposure, or tools network operators do in the US or Europe.

- You're probably getting synchronized sessions, which is an absolute death knell for large file transfers of this sort. There's no way of knowing if WRED has been properly deployed along that path, or if it's even applied to port 80 traffic at all. I was looking for Fred Baker's paper on this, because I think it's one of the easier to understand, but all I could find is this page, which has tons of information on TCP synchronization and other sorts of problems (most of it probably not very useful for you, but...) http://www.icir.org/floyd/red.html

So, to wrap back around to the beginning -- I would seriously consider offering folks a checkbox someplace, or even a setting in a config file, that could be used to set the number of transfers to one at a time, just to see what happens. Other than that, a private ftp server that tech support could post a "file package" on of some sort, so folks in this situation could go around the entire problem with filezilla or some such, could be a possible solution for these situations.

Other than that -- don't know. Glad to talk on the phone or through email if it's helpful, or put you in touch with folks who know a ton more about TCP and queuing than I do (I'm a control plane geek, not a data plane geek, so you're really just on the edge of my expertise here).

Russ

P.S. -- it's interesting this problem isn't showing up in the previous version of OS/X. I'll bet they implemented fast start, or did something with the TCP window sizes, or something with the outbound queuing from the box, etc. Not an Apple geek, so I don't know the answer.

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 5:25 PM

Hi Guys: Info given to help with troubleshooting.

This problem existed for me as soon as the huge update for 5 started. I assumed the issue was with Logos servers as soon as i realized version 6 was released at about the same time.
10 Meg by 1meg connection and it took two days to get all of the version 5 download . Might add, no matter what I did on my end, Download triggered indexing while downloading. 
Called Logos, my sales guy, he reported yes, everything pretty slow etc.
Bought my upgrade to version 6, similar issues.

This isn't mac only btw, similar issues with windows downloads.

Even Logos website was very slow to load in : Mac, Windows, iOS , Kindle browser.

There IS a problem on Logos end and, Logos is aware , as far as I can tell from my conversations with them.

Yes, have checked internet connection on my end, both wired and wifi.

I'm not sure what is offloaded to contracted servers and what is in house, but was informed some aspects come through outside servers ( amazon?) .

One last point of interest: Its not nearly as big an issue if at 30 meg or above, below 15 it really seems an issue, that said, I have friends at 30 also having intermittent issues.

Log in on boot very slow for some etc, etc.

My "guess" is there is indeed an issue on the Logos end , especially with OS X and, we have the known OS X wifi issue on top . Known issues often prevent proper troubleshooting of other issues.

Blessings.

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 6:09 PM

Sean McIntyre:
I can google for an sql app but if you have any suggestions then do let me know.

Firefox has a SQLite Manager plug-in.  Apple's App Store has SQLite applications.

Sean McIntyre:
how to make logos scan an external folder. 

Wiki has scan examples => https://wiki.logos.com/Quick_Installation_onto_Multiple_Macs#Copy_Logos_Resources_to_Mac_OS_X

After entering scan command, remember to restart Logos.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 22
Christian Bongartz | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 10:00 PM

Russ White:
P.S. -- it's interesting this problem isn't showing up in the previous version of OS/X. I'll bet they implemented fast start, or did something with the TCP window sizes, or something with the outbound queuing from the box, etc. Not an Apple geek, so I don't know the answer.

Thanks for your input. I think you have described what might be the case. As for only on Yosemite, thats not quite right, I've had this in the past too using L5 and Mavericks, and even before then. I stay in Malawi Africa, so all the things you have written are applicable.

I have been successful now with my downloading by getting the list of files manually and then using jdownloader, works perfectly.

Posts 28122
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 10:09 PM

Christian Bongartz:
As for only on Yosemite, thats not quite right, I've had this in the past too using L5 and Mavericks, and even before then.

It is important to separate similar symptoms with "the same problem." I think if there were a problem in Mavericks, we would have seen more about it in the forums... 

Christian Bongartz:
I have been successful now with my downloading by getting the list of files manually and then using jdownloader, works perfectly.

So you bypassed the Logos app to download, and it went off without a hitch, right?

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 2499
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 10:19 PM

Bro. Bongartz is try to access the server from Africa. The location could be a factor.

Posts 22
Christian Bongartz | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 4 2014 11:30 PM

alabama24:
So you bypassed the Logos app to download, and it went off without a hitch, right?

Yes no problems at all. I had over 700 MB of fresh downloads this morning, which took me about an hour with jDownloader. Then after the scan command it took another 30 minutes and it was done.

I think we need to look into location, that might be a contributing factor, as I've mentioned elsewhere I sometimes have extremely high latencies. I now that many places in Africa through satellite rather than cable. That makes latencies terrible.

Posts 281
Sean McIntyre | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 5 2014 1:39 AM

Mark Barnes:

Sean,

How are you getting on?

Mark

alabama24:

Sean McIntyre:

No, I'm following Mark's advice and downloading the files externally using a download manager and the URL's that I ripped from the Logos database

Download is maybe 100 times faster.

Did that rate hold for you? Were you successful?

Hi Guys, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Well the news is that today I am a very happy camper.

I followed Mark's advice and

1. I opened the updates database with a third party app (SQlite Professional) and exported the list of URL's as a CSV file as there is no .txt option
2. Opened the CSV in a text editor and saved as a .txt file.
3. Opened the text file in Firefox
4. Right clicked and selected to download with the 'DownThemAll' extension for Firefox.

Because this method required downloading whole resources, the downloaded was considerably larger than the 2.6GB that Logos was downloading. It actually came to more than 12GB. However, whereas the Logos update was taking days for just a few Megabytes, I left this running overnight and by morning everything was downloaded.

I scanned the folder with Logos and after a few minutes everything was updated.

Curiously, I had to download SR-3 within logos as it doesn't appear in the database. However, unlike the resources, it downloaded at normal speed. This might be useful info to someone who knows more than I.

Anyway, thanks to you Mark and everyone else who assisted.

Posts 687
Jon | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 5 2014 1:42 AM

Mark Barnes:

The URLs Sean is downloaded are not all the same as the ones the indexer would download. That's because updates to existing resources are delta updates (i.e. just the changed part of the file is sent). The method I suggested can't support delta updates, so I therefore had Sean download the full files.

It remains theoretically possible (although I doubt it) that delta updates cause the problem.

I can confirm, by accident, that that is not the case. I booted up Logos on my home computer (on which I rarely use Logos) this morning just to see if the updates would work. Running Logos 5.1(!), it started downloading the updates (whole files not deltas) and choked with same symptoms as previously described.

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
We're not doing anything so low-level. Here's our download code:

Just for kicks I tried simulating the issue by setting up many simultaneous NSURLDownload instances of a large logos resource using the QuickLookDownloader sample project from the developer docs... I was not able to reproduce the issue — they all downloaded fine.

Adam Borries (Faithlife Support):
There is is also a rumor that Apple will be addressing this bug in the next update to Yosemite. 

No improvement yet with 10.10.1 Beta 1.

FWIW, can LogosIndexer using 2 CPU cores at 100% when there is no patching or indexing or downloading occurring (and no connectivity issues in any other app including the actual Logos app) be simply a "wifi connectivity" problem?

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