Can I question the level of online dependancy that the new functionality seems to require?

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Kevin A Lewis | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Nov 25 2014 8:03 AM

I have been pondering making this post for some time - since the outage started.

I would question requirement to add constant connectivity for anything other that ordering and down loading. I believe this is highlighted by the service outage that we experienced.

From what I gather some of the functionality cannot be delivered without the connection. First point is that a true "cannot" or is it a policy choice based on expected level of service and connectivity provision. Secondly are all of these functionality "only" deliverable that way.; cannot an offline route be found.

Next once the power of Logos (with large personal investments in resources) is harnessed and its usage starts to be relied upon in study, essay and sermon prep etc. What does someone do when the connection is not there. This is not just affected at the supply end (i.e. Faithlife) but also by national and local infrastructure provision. For instance the North American internet is not what is available in Pakistan, North Korea or even Brazil (apologies to the innocent!). In addition I can foresee some people who's circumstances change (i.e. retirement) being unable to keep up any personal internet connection. They would then lose what they once had.

Just a few thoughts

Meant in peace and to encourage creative improvement

Thanks and kudos go to all who have been working so hard in difficult times.

Kevin

Posts 302
John Graves | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 8:06 AM

Kevin,

I think you make some very valid points, especially as it relates to functionality that we payed for in Logos 6. I had no idea that these pieces of the software would not work without internet connection.

Hopefully Logos will consider allowing us to use these things offline.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 8:51 AM

Kevin A Lewis:
From what I gather some of the functionality cannot be delivered without the connection. First point is that a true "cannot" or is it a policy choice based on expected level of service and connectivity provision. Secondly are all of these functionality "only" deliverable that way.; cannot an offline route be found.

From what I understand, for the core program and the vast majority of data (so far), and for the desktop/laptop environment, Logos is completely usable without an internet connection. Although there has been some discussion of making some of this core functionality cloud dependent, there are no current plans to move in that direction.

Some of the other functionality (e.g., visual copy, some maps) will be cloud dependent. As I understand the reasoning, this enables us to have access to data in the amounts of multiple terabytes. There may even be further developments in this area.

For cloud dependent platforms (e.g., many tablets, smart-phones), there are multiple reasons for making more data cloud-based. But those devices are vulnerable to other cloud-based outages as well.

As to what this does for folks without or with limited access to the internet, or to sufficient bandwidth or data plans to take advantage of these features, that will be something Logos is going to have to address sooner or later. They may simply decide that they don't want to enter such markets, or they may decide to roll out a version of the program, and/or a base package, that is not in any way impacted by a lack of internet access. Such a package would be attractive to some missionaries and to some in the geographical areas you mention.

On the other hand, nearly all of what is delivered in Logos6 is not cloud dependent on the desktop/laptops environment. The program can be, and is used, without such access (on those platforms), as last week's outage proved. The only thing I couldn't do that I wanted was a visual copy of a verse. But I had an alternative way to do that, so no loss for me.

With all the things going on in our world these days, this is one doesn't even measure on my anxiety meter.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 692
Otto S. Carroll | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 9:16 AM

Rich DeRuiter:
The only thing I couldn't do that I wanted was a visual copy of a verse. But I had an alternative way to do that, so no loss for me.

Visual Copy is the main thing I'm missing - I was using it everyday until the server crashed - that was when I realized that it was cloud dependent. I don't understand why the templates can't be available for download for the offline desktop/laptop environments. I guess I need to have an alternate in place... 

__________

15" rMBP 2.6 GHz i7 | 16 GB RAM | 1.0 TB Flash Drive | OS X 10.12.3 | Logos 7.0 (7.3.0.0062)

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 9:24 AM

Please see https://community.logos.com/forums/p/93180/647603.aspx#647603 for a description of what currently requires an online connection and the reasons for it

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 10:25 AM

Otto S. Carroll:
I don't understand why the templates can't be available for download for the offline desktop/laptop environments.

My understanding is that there are hopes to make available a much greater variety of templates and backgrounds. Eventually these expanded options could crowd a limited hard drive in ways an online service wouldn't. But it might be helpful to have some basic templates available for download, if people wanted that.

If you want to make a suggestion, there's a forum for that. Smile

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Otto S. Carroll | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 10:53 AM

Rich DeRuiter:

If you want to make a suggestion, there's a forum for that. Smile

Yes, I intend too, but only after all the current issues are resolved and everyone at Logos have a chance to catch their breath. I work in broadcast television and I have been in situations of having to resolve failures minutes before air time. Big Smile   So I do understand what the Logos team is going through. 

May our Lord continue to bless them!!!

__________

15" rMBP 2.6 GHz i7 | 16 GB RAM | 1.0 TB Flash Drive | OS X 10.12.3 | Logos 7.0 (7.3.0.0062)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 7:03 PM

Kevin A Lewis:

I would question requirement to add constant connectivity for anything other that ordering and down loading. I believe this is highlighted by the service outage that we experienced.

From what I gather some of the functionality cannot be delivered without the connection. First point is that a true "cannot" or is it a policy choice based on expected level of service and connectivity provision. Secondly are all of these functionality "only" deliverable that way.; cannot an offline route be found.

I look at it this way:

  • it is always cheaper and more reliable to deliver functionality without connectivity so the pressure on Faithlife is always and naturally to minimize internet requirements.
  • Faithlife has a portion of its users for whom connectivity is limited or expensive - another pressure to minimize internet requirements.
  • Faithlife currently requires systems towards the high end of the distribution of computer systems. This creates push back that moves in the direction of more connectivity (server side activity)
  • Faithlife delivers third-party data that must be delivered via connectivity; this data is unavailable to those working offline.
  • Faithlife has moved into high resource requirement resources (Atlas, video classes, visual copy ...) that need at a minimum to be available either locally or via connectivity services depending upon user systems. Faithlife appears to still be identifying the best balance in these cases. Without the option of not having it locally, these features would not be developed.

As long as the primary functions of the application are available offline, I am not complaining that some features require internet connections. I am also recognizing that given the balancing of internet availability and cost, user system configurations and feature availability there is no one perfect answer. As Faithlife seeks the correct balance for each new feature, I'll grant them time to listen to the feedback and make appropriate adjustments. However, I am not willing to have them scrap useful features solely because they require connectivity.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 7:24 PM

MJ. Smith:
As long as the primary functions of the application are available offline, I am not complaining that some features require internet connections. I am also recognizing that given the balancing of internet availability and cost, user system configurations and feature availability there is no one perfect answer. As Faithlife seeks the correct balance for each new feature, I'll grant them time to listen to the feedback and make appropriate adjustments. However, I am not willing to have them scrap useful features solely because they require connectivity.

What an excellent summary. Thank you for taking time to clearly explain your understanding. I agree with your conclusions.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 9:57 PM

Kevin A Lewis:
First point is that a true "cannot" or is it a policy choice based on expected level of service and connectivity provision. Secondly are all of these functionality "only" deliverable that way.; cannot an offline route be found.

can offer a service that has a string quartet perform in your living room.

For some few number of customers, I can also offer a full orchestra. But you'll need a very large living room. :-)

So when you want to hear the orchestra, we either have to record a limited selection and ship you the music on some offline media like a CD, or, if you want access to the full repertoire, and new compositions, and on-demand performances, we'll have to stream performances over the wire.

We prefer offline whenever possible. It puts no demands on our servers, it works quickly for you whether you're connected or not, and it reduces the chance that we'll have some crisis inconvenience thousands of people at once. We prefer that. (Although it often inconveniences thousands of people at separate times -- even today everyone still have a slightly different machine / configuration / installed software collection, and it's hard to make something that works for everyone, doesn't get caught up in some Yosemite-introduced bug we can't control, etc.)

There are hybrid solutions -- big data online, with local caching and storage -- and we offer a verity of them (we cache map titles you've viewed already, and lots of other data), and we'll offer more over time. But those things add complexity, too, and there are some nice things about server-based delivery that we like, too.

(We're able to create new Visual Copy and other media any time we want and it's instantly available to everyone. We can use fonts we don't have redistribution licenses to, allowing more flexibility in Visual Copy designs, since they get rendered on the server, and we can add new maps, change metadata, fix errors, etc. much more quickly -- if the server is up! And it usually is, if we leave this week out of it. And hopefully the lessons learned here will lead to even more stability in the future.)

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 26 2014 12:07 AM

MJ. Smith:
As long as the primary functions of the application are available offline, I am not complaining that some features require internet connections.

And the requirement to maintain connectivity has proven to be very expensive. Notice that Visual Copy was the subject of almost all concerned threads - I didn't see one about Atlas!

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 824
GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 26 2014 1:03 AM

MJ. Smith:

I look at it this way:

  • it is always cheaper and more reliable to deliver functionality without connectivity so the pressure on Faithlife is always and naturally to minimize internet requirements.
  • Faithlife has a portion of its users for whom connectivity is limited or expensive - another pressure to minimize internet requirements.
  • Faithlife currently requires systems towards the high end of the distribution of computer systems. This creates push back that moves in the direction of more connectivity (server side activity)
  • Faithlife delivers third-party data that must be delivered via connectivity; this data is unavailable to those working offline.
  • Faithlife has moved into high resource requirement resources (Atlas, video classes, visual copy ...) that need at a minimum to be available either locally or via connectivity services depending upon user systems. Faithlife appears to still be identifying the best balance in these cases. Without the option of not having it locally, these features would not be developed.

As long as the primary functions of the application are available offline, I am not complaining that some features require internet connections. I am also recognizing that given the balancing of internet availability and cost, user system configurations and feature availability there is no one perfect answer. As Faithlife seeks the correct balance for each new feature, I'll grant them time to listen to the feedback and make appropriate adjustments. However, I am not willing to have them scrap useful features solely because they require connectivity.

Absolutely. We need to keep a sense of proportion over some of these things. I can't get too excited about Visual Copy not being available: I just copy and paste to Powerpoint and move on. What might be helpful is to have a message box come up to say that the application cannot contact the server, so the function is currently unavailable (or store a small number of cached templates). Now if Search required online access on the desktop, or Visual Filters, or Collections, for example, or other functions that I use as part of my core exegetical workflow, that would be a problem.

There are workrounds available for most of the online features: Visual Copy can revert to Powepoint, and Atlas can revert to the old Logos Deluxe Map Set.

I do think we could do with the IOS app more elegantly detecting unavailability of the services when online and reverting to offline mode - it works well when the device is offline: it just needs to detect this and respond a bit more elegantly when it is online but the servers aren't. 


Running Logos 6 Platinum and Logos Now on Surface Pro 4, 8 GB RAM, 256GB SSD, i5

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