Logos 7 - What should it offer?

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Posts 3938
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 6 2014 5:47 AM

Improve internal automated tools for linking books to other books to the point where you can run it on old books and have them brought more up to date than they currently are. Even if this means developing different engines for vyrso/logos so as to maintain the bargain nature of Vyrso titles. Else change the tagging and cost projections so that the tagging is done both ways prior to the release of a new books. IE If the book I wrote is linked to by 300 resources, updating those resources with the tags to the book I write. Develop automated tools to make this process easier and less costly. 

Second, the ability to use word to embed audio files, as well as video files into my personal books. Even if it means (and this is second best) that the title won't be synced by logos. 

Third the Journal like section in search but for Systematic, dogmatics, and other titles of theology would be wonderful. This could be expanded to other things in the library as well. 

Finally I would like to see journals (and if #3 becomes a reality, theology books and those other types as well) show up in the "everything" search. Is it really an everything search if it doesn't bring that data up?

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 3938
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 6 2014 5:49 AM

Unix:

There are many reasons to have (...) as well and this is one of them and wouldn't be a simple matter to implement in Logos/Verbum. I haven't installed the Bible Review CD-ROM I bought nor even decided whether I myself or the friend I'll research together should have it:

Ben:
3. A title view in the library that treats series like one book. I don't even have that many resources ( 700ish), but when scrolling through my library, I end up scrolling really fast to get through dozens of Biblical Archaeology Review, Bible Review, and Biblical Archaeologist issues, where every issue is a separate title. And then I overshoot and miss whatever comes after.  I guess I'm asking to add an expandable level in to the title view.

It seems to me that you spend an inordinate amount of time talking about other software. As much as you do so, I hope they are paying you for your efforts. 

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 2038
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 6 2014 5:55 AM

There's really nothing wrong to have two softwares to maximize benefits if seeing the strengths of both, and naturally there are few forums where to discuss different softwares that have proprietary resources:

abondservant:
It seems to me that you spend an inordinate amount of time talking about other software. As much as you do so, I hope they are paying you for your efforts.

Aply!
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Posts 468
Charlene | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 6 2014 7:52 AM

Ben:

 

  1. A title view in the library that treats series like one book. I don't even have that many resources ( 700ish), but when scrolling through my library, I end up scrolling really fast to get through dozens of Biblical Archaeology Review, Bible Review, and Biblical Archaeologist issues, where every issue is a separate title. And then I overshoot and miss whatever comes after.  I guess I'm asking to add an expandable level in to the title view. 

Great idea!

Charlene

Posts 1007
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 6 2014 12:15 PM

I have always wished for a notes view like the 'quotes' view but with my own comments below...

https://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-6/suggestions/6811070--quotes-view-in-notes-my-own-comments-below

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 18725
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 6 2014 12:40 PM

Fuzzy search!

There is seriously no reason why I should be forced to go to Google to find what verse in the Bible says something like "do not stop meeting together" as I had to the other day. Logos found no hits in all of my Bibles.

Google found it as the first hit.

That is just embarrassing, and unacceptable IMO. Logos is a Bible Search program par excellence. That it can't do this (especially when Logos 3 could) is beyond unbelievable to me. I unfortunately do not have a full installation of Libronix on my computer anymore with all my resources to test this, but if anyone who does would like to confirm that it could find this particular phrase, I'd be glad for extra support to my frustration. Anyway, even if Logos had never been able to do this in the past, I'd be frustrated that it can't.

I know you'll say "but Google has so many more employees and money to index so many pages, and this is such a hard problem, and we don't want to do it at all if we can't do it well [no wait, you wouldn't say that latter thing; that isn't usually how you operate Smile ], and..." However you run a Bible software company and searching in the Bible is Logos's specialty. So no excuses anymore, OK? Just do it!

Posts 3691
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 6 2014 1:12 PM

Rosie Perera:
There is seriously no reason why I should be forced to go to Google to find what verse in the Bible says something like "do not stop meeting together" as I had to the other day.

Rosie, I am not sure what you have in mind that would be different from what can be done using "search while typing" in Logos 6 (I used meeting together in All Bibles with search while typing and found it right away). The example you provide from Google is NOT a fuzzy search. I looked at the first two hits to check of what kind they were and one is mentioned in the poster's commentary on Hebrew 10:25 (can fuzzy search find something that is not there, ie, that particular string?) and the next one was from the International English Bible (never heard of it and as far as I know not available in Logos). 

I am not contesting the need for fuzzy search, but just asking if you could clarify how it would differ from what can be done with "search while typing". 

Posts 18725
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 6 2014 1:47 PM

Francis:

Rosie Perera:
There is seriously no reason why I should be forced to go to Google to find what verse in the Bible says something like "do not stop meeting together" as I had to the other day.

Rosie, I am not sure what you have in mind that would be different from what can be done using "search while typing" in Logos 6 (I used meeting together in All Bibles with search while typing and found it right away). The example you provide from Google is NOT a fuzzy search. I looked at the first two hits to check of what kind they were and one is mentioned in the poster's commentary on Hebrew 10:25 (can fuzzy search find something that is not there, ie, that particular string?) and the next one was from the International English Bible (never heard of it and as far as I know not available in Logos). 

I am not contesting the need for fuzzy search, but just asking if you could clarify how it would differ from what can be done with "search while typing". 

Francis, the only thing "search while typing" does for you is lets you get the results while you type instead of typing the whole search string, hitting Enter, and then getting the results. I never use search while typing because the Search speed is fast enough for me and I don't care to be distracted by partial results or slow things down before I've finished typing what I'm searching for.

The significant difference between what you searched for and what I searched for was that I searched for a quoted phrase and you searched for two words without quotes. Sometimes that can help instead of doing a fuzzy search. I'm not sure how you managed to find Heb 10:25 so quickly with it though, because in my case it finds too much to be useful. Maybe I have many more Bibles than you have:

I could remove the quotes from around the phrase I was searching for to open up more possibilities, but unfortunately it still finds nothing:

I know that Google does not do a fuzzy search. But the fact that I can find something I'm looking for in Google when I can't find it in Logos means I'm turning to Google more often when I ought to be able to stay in Logos to do such searches. And if Logos brought back its fuzzy search from L3 then I wouldn't have to resort to Google. I don't mind going to Google. I have my browser up and running all the time anyway. But it's just kind of silly that Logos can't do a search like this.

What "fuzzy search" in Logos 3 did was not what you're talking about with "search while typing". It was smart enough to try leaving out certain words if your memory was only approximate, use different word forms (which we do already have the ability to do, but sometimes that can find way too much), use synonyms of words in your search criteria, etc. So it was really good at nailing what you were thinking of if you could only come up with some approximation of it. Basically it could save you taking multiples stabs at the search, using lots of different possible word orders, spellings, synonyms, combinations of keywords, and weeding out extraneous hits that were not likely to be what you were looking for based on the percentage of keywords. I really don't know what algorithm it used, and I'm sure it could have been improved upon, and I understand that it would have to be entirely rewrittenn now for the post L4 engine days where they now use a different sort of index for searching. But still it was quite impressive how often it was able to find what I was looking for when I couldn't remember enough of the verse to do a better search for it myself, and I miss that. I feel that in L4, 5, 6, the user has to do more work to find what they're looking for. And the response when people complain that they can't find what they're looking for is usually something along the lines of "do a better job of constructing your search and you'll be able to find it." I simply want Logos to be smarter.

BTW, there's an explanation of the old Fuzzy Search feature here: https://www.logos.com/products/lbs/lbsx21 

Posts 356
Mathew Haferkamp | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 6 2014 2:35 PM

I have an idea for you Bob, how about you offer a base package for rent (like gold) for a first time user.  Maybe at an affordable price ($50.00) for a month or two, as an easy way for someone to try it out.  Now remember I said a first time user, that would make it easier for some of us to try to help people get past the sticker shock.  Thanks.

Posts 1007
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 6 2014 3:32 PM

Yes Fuzzy search - I get fed up with my search box and go to google a lot!

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 98
Xegesis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 6 2014 3:53 PM

When doing a search in Logos 7 that brings up a resource that I don't have in the results, it should prompt me when I click the link if I would like to read just that section for 99 cents for the next hour or 24 hours for example.  I can see that being a nice revenue stream for Logos and a benefit for the users. This would be much more beneficial to me then a monthly subscription service.

Posts 18725
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 6 2014 4:13 PM

Xegesis:

When doing a search in Logos 7 that brings up a resource that I don't have in the results, it should prompt me when I click the link if I would like to read just that section for 99 cents for the next hour or 24 hours for example.  I can see that being a nice revenue stream for Logos and a benefit for the users. This would be much more beneficial to me then a monthly subscription service.

Great idea! Yes

Posts 1026
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 6 2014 4:17 PM

Rosie Perera:

I know that Google does not do a fuzzy search. But the fact that I can find something I'm looking for in Google when I can't find it in Logos means I'm turning to Google more often when I ought to be able to stay in Logos to do such searches. And if Logos brought back its fuzzy search from L3 then I wouldn't have to resort to Google. I don't mind going to Google. I have my browser up and running all the time anyway. But it's just kind of silly that Logos can't do a search like this.

YesYesYes

I have the same problem, and my reaction is the same - it's just silly. I remember a verse, but either don't have the wording exactly right, or don't remember which version I have memorized.  Google almost always gives me what I want immediately, but Logos far too often doesn't. 

Posts 3938
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 6 2014 6:41 PM

Unix:

There's really nothing wrong to have two softwares to maximize benefits if seeing the strengths of both

Using them wasn't my objection. Logos forums are for Logos software.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 1509
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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 7 2014 2:36 AM

Francis:

Fr Devin Roza:
Maybe that could also be used as a basis for a new Clippings tool that would replace the actual one? After all, it would be so much better if Clippings documents just acted like normal resources, were searchable as a normal resource, etc., etc., in a similar way to how I imagined a Preaching Toolbox working. Hmmm....

Yes, I lean in that direction because while you have a very specific application in mind, a tool that is more versatile could have other applications and be serviceable to building a "preaching toolbox". 

Just to follow up on this, here is another type of application for Clipping that would work like this, that I think would be very common.

It is somewhat common among scholars who write long detailed works to hear that they have 1000s or 10s of 1000s of handwritten note files that they organize according to topics. I would love to be able to do something like this with Logos, but I would not personally use either Notes or Clippings as they are currently for something like this. They are missing some basic features that would make them useful for something like this, like searching, tables of contents, etc.

But I would definitely use a Clippings feature that worked like I described above for a Preaching Tacklebox for something like this. Especially if it included, in addition to what I mentioned above, a table of contents organized by Theme / Tag / Title (that's right, by all of them, one after another - or by selection of how you want to view the Table of Contents, with a virtual table of contents organized by Theme / Tag / Title, etc.... table of contents don't have to be organized only by Title, especially for entries that have tags / themes!).

Posts 2472
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 7 2014 3:27 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

BriM:
The orange circles that appear when navigating through a bible are very time-wasting in my workflow where I have a list of verses that I want to look up and copy – a couple of seconds each time to display orange circles is annoying. This also makes it slow to quickly move between passages if wanting to check something.

These are called "Visual Cues" and can be turned off in the General section of Program Settings.

Suggestion: auto-prompt user to turn [luxury, bling...] feature off if it is timed at >x seconds.

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 7 2014 4:48 AM

Agree on Fuzzy search per Rosie's comment - I too go first to Google to search for phrases I may or may not exactly remember - whether it's Bible or a non-Bible resource.

I mention phrases etc. outside of the Bible - for me recently, I was trying to remember which saint prayed something to God like, "If this is how you treat your friends, it's no wonder you have so few of them". It would be a very useful reference for a homily - yet I couldn't remember.

So I go to Verbum:

Verbum gave me SO MANY hits, but none of them helpful. And I don't think any quotes would have helped, as it was not an exact search. I just didn't know what to do with this!

So then I went to Google -  you see the difference - so easy! I also get some info to read to support the quote too. 

I also laugh thinking about how I go to Google for search instead of Logos/Verbum for search, what is wrong with this picture. Topic search is very nice and useful but it is NOT fuzzy search.

By the way, if you search "if this is how you treat your friends it's no wonder you have so few of them" with the quotes, you get 0 hits in Verbum.

I also second Fr. Roza's idea of a preacher's toolbox and better clipping tool, I would add Notes too. I use Notes exactly for this - to grab, categorize, and "file" interesting thoughts that I would never think to search for again. I would then be able to easily search there and find things, but that is very hard to do in Notes of course because it does not highlight search results, which is another absurd thing in a software program that specializes in search. If Notes, Clippings, and other tools had better ways to manage and organize information we want to get back to it would be a great supplement to the resources and engine Logos offers today.

Posts 2472
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 7 2014 5:02 AM

Folks, for a variety of reasons which I will not detail here, comparing any in-app search with big G's is a little unfair...  Zip it!

Perhaps the feasible suggestion would be to revert to earlier functionality (assuming that it's not piggybacking off an online search engine)

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 7 2014 5:18 AM

Lee:

Folks, for a variety of reasons which I will not detail here, comparing any in-app search with big G's is a little unfair...  Zip it!

Perhaps the feasible suggestion would be to revert to earlier functionality (assuming that it's not piggybacking off an online search engine)

That's exactly the point. Fuzzy Search worked. We are not saying replace Google, we are saying that the post-Logos 3 strategy for search has failed to replace that feature effectively.

Posts 2472
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 7 2014 5:26 AM

Don Awalt:

That's exactly the point. Fuzzy Search worked. We are not saying replace Google, we are saying that the post-Logos 3 strategy for search has failed to replace that feature effectively.

My subtle point also being that fuzzy search may be relying on some secret sauce which is not on the menu.

Recommendation: Don't belabour the point on this more generic thread. Let other suggestions get airtime too. Instead, go here.

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