Logos V6 Mac Downloading fixed, now PLS FIX INDEXING

Page 1 of 1 (19 items)
This post has 18 Replies | 1 Follower

Posts 40
David Geipel | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Dec 2 2014 8:54 AM

Just downloaded 1.3GB of resources to Logos v6. I've been using it since day one (actually started the initial download within a few hours of new V6 being available and finally using it 3 days later). The previous culprits preventing me from having a GREAT user experience were two fold: Download Time and Indexing (re-indexing) Time. For background, you can read my previous post about my upgrades V5-->V6 and Bronze --> Platinum.

1) Resource/Update Downloads via Mac (Fixed)
A recent update gave us the ability to use a special Terminal command to help speed up my Mac. Why this isn't OR wasn't bundled BEFORE the launch of V6 last month still shocks me... but glad I could update via Terminal. Just needs to be embedded into the application for novice users afraid to use command prompts.

This post is to verify that my 1.3GB download took minutes, not hours (like over 24 hours and several restarts I had to do last time).

2) INDEXING (not fixed)Yes, I am still beating the drum -again- because I will not accept the speed and resources required for indexing Logos. It's something that should be considered one of the highest priorities of the platform (after updating the backend servers redundancy, etc). Here's ONE MAJOR FACTOR to consider especially if you're on the Sales & Marketing Team reading this post on why this impacts you - until it's fixed, it will be a huge chink because it makes the software unusable. It's like a mini outage - waiting for it to index.

Knowing it takes FOREVER to update resources, why would I even want to buy another one AND mess with my "sacred index" (using that term loosely I hope you know I don't view it that way, but adding color to my commentary). For me, a new update/upgrade is a HORRIFIC EXPERIENCE. You still need to convince me this new wifi, mac download issue is fixed and wont break still - every time I dare hit download.

The next part of using Logos is the indexing. It's brutal. I am not convinced you're team is using the best methodology for indexing. I would expect incremental indexes or something custom to my base package since you know you're adding them to a specific user. IE you know my library and could possible formulate a custom (or base package version) index that is sent with my update. Again, just thinking through why it takes forever and can't believe Logos takes longer than my Mac to reindex when all it does is add incremental resources.

Perhaps you should contact EVERNOTE's team. They too are very helpful and vocal sharing what they do and how they do it...Check out an old blog post I found with some similar details on why they chose mysql as a format... https://community.logos.com/forums/p/93043/645511.aspx#645511

Insightful. And scroll to their comments for real juicy details. May be helpful... Again, worth a call to them.

Of course, I am still sensitive to the fact much wont be touched because of the recent outage. I am thankful for you guys burning the midnight oil, around the clock to get that done. Just need to say thank you again.

Back to INDEXING... Please revisit this asap. It's a major user issue that's just HORRIBLE. Once fixed, v6 will be better. Until then, I am still not a huge fan. So help me become a BIGGER FAN.

Thanks all.

Blessings,

Dave

BTW - the new 1.3GB update is just 50% indexed 45 minutes after the process started. That seems better than index times of the past, but that's still 10 minutes for every 140MB is what I am seeing... And yes, using the latest (Logos Bible Software 6.0a - 6.0.1.0032). From a user perspective, if I just buy a new commentary to use, forget about using it right away or within a few minutes. Download, reindex, come back tomorrow because most don't have time to wait. Might was well use the internet. Forget about Logos altogether... Know what I mean? Hope that resonates a bit!

Posts 27810
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 2 2014 9:44 AM

Why wasn't the fix included with L6 to begin with? Simply because they didn't know about it. This was an issue related to logos and Yosemite. As for indexing, what are your specs? What computer are you using? What kind of hard drive? How full is it?

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 40
David Geipel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 2 2014 10:04 AM

I know #alabama24. Good chatting with ya again. It was a fix they just sent through end of last week which I am grateful for of course... but they kept blaming Apple. I would think they would have addressed it sooner. Mac users should check this out... https://www.logos.com/support/logos6/mac/error-yosemite

But I think they've added most of this minus one user required fix and it's something like this:

  1. Quit Logos.
    **If the Logos Indexer is running, also follow the force quit instructions below.
  2. Open the Mac Terminal.
  3. Paste in this Terminal Command exactly as written:
    defaults write com.logos.Logos UseURLSession -bool YES
  4. Press Enter/Return to execute the command.
    Note: Terminal will not return a response/success message.

On another note, I DID finally move my iTunes music (70GB worth) to an external SD card (one that elegantly fits into the SD slot on my MBA - so that allows my HD to crank away more efficiently. Before, I got the "you need at least 1GB of space" alert even though I had like 5-6 available... the index chews through that, THEN throws the error. My suggestion still stands - Calculate what is really required BEFORE t reindexes.

Anyways, my specs now are: MacBook Air (13-inch, Mid 2011) 1.8ghz i7, 4GB ddr3... 80GB free HD on my SSD drive. It's still a decent machine but once Logos gets ahold of it... time stands still - hahaha.

Posts 2305
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 2 2014 10:53 AM

Logos easily can consume 8GB of RAM when indexing. Indexing may then chew into HD space to complete. My 16GB Mac i7 will drop to less than a GB free of RAM while indexing.  I've seen this since L4 on both Mac and PC including an SSD with 4GB RAM.

Sooo...it's not really just a Mac issue. Large amounts of files are going to take awhile. The ordinary downloads, anything under, say 100MB, finish fairly fast. My take is that the PCs index a bit faster than the Mac on L6, but not a quantum leap. 

I have an extremely large library. The difference between L4 and L6 is like day and night for indexing. 

FWIW, I had to recreate some DVDs on the Mac for my wife who lost the copies I had made her. It took me well over six hours to convert, encode and burn three DVDs. Try and keep some perspective on Logos' performance. Mine is that we're greatly blessed.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 40
David Geipel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 2 2014 2:46 PM

"Try and keep some perspective on Logos' performance. Mine is that we're greatly blessed."
Amen #Mab. I am too.

My main challenge to the Logos team in solving the problem of index lag / downtime:

How much Study Time & Sermon Prep Time can you return to your customers?
-or-
How can you give God's people "His time" back so they can do ministry?

I've been around software for a long time as many seem to have a similar history on this forum. I understand the basics of indexing but this repeat issue seems to remind me it's not ideal... it can be better... it should be better. I hate to run an update or even to purchase anything new for Logos - because it's a major issue to reindex. It's really more of the unknown such as: "ok, how long will I have to wait this time..." My previous poor experiences may have resulted from low HD space. For example I was amazed to see once it was done indexing, it returned 4-6GBs back to my available space every time. I really wanted v6 to be a better engine but the update / upgrade didn't seem to accomplish it - yet.

I am not a developer or programmer, but I submit my ideas to the community with the hope it helps others think about it differently (no Apple pun intended). Another idea I've had for some time is to look at the problem from a different perspective. For example, perhaps they can post an update with an optional index download... I would rather spend resources downloading than indexing. So if Logos can put more emphasis on a slightly larger download than a longer indexing process, please, sign me up. In other words, include part of the index file with the download to cut the index time in half or more... Just sharing a one-off idea but who knows, I am sure a techie will jump in and tell me to stop offering suggestions.

For Example:

Today, I was met with this screen for 50 minutes (first 60% of the reindex)... notice I can't use the application - the home page doesn't even load.

Before it gave me this one while it finished the last 40% (around 50 minutes into waiting for the homepage to load).

Note: the difference is that I couldn't do anything for 45-50 minutes while it was indexing UNTIL it hit some unknown threshold and then the homepage appeared with a recap of the update it was indexing. And before you comment on the # of resources added, I hope you step back to ask why we have accepted that a large number of resources should take that long. It was a few free periodicals and old classical works - so nothing too crazy :)

See why I am a bit compelled to push on this sore spot? It's a tender spot, I understand. But I won't sit back and say ok, that's acceptable just because it's a large collection or I've downloaded 100, 500 or 1000 books (and what do I expect)... That never enters my thoughts when I think about how it SHOULD behave. Ten years ago I would agree, it should take time. Today, not acceptable.

Also - any way to include Logos index in Spotlight? Why can't we use spotlight to find reference material? Just curious... I am sure my Mac would crank out a new index multiple times quicker. Not a shot... just saying.

Anyways, back to the main topic of indexing woes - I just spoke to my professor this afternoon who told me his PC took a week to reindex when he moved up to v6... Ouch. So do I feel better, maybe, but not really because that's crazy. While he might not complain or provide "critical feedback" as I like to do, because yes, I will be "that person" to say - this is not the best it can be, period. So Logos team, let's work harder to get it right for all of us. If you have a blog post detailed like your outage post, I would LOVE to subscribe and hear about what you've done to solve this challenge. If it's reaching out to other companies, I am sure you will find one or two other companies with larger data sets who could provide their insight. I think a challenge would be cool too - challenge developers to help you. Never know what could result. A nice ministry to the tech world.

Bottom line: think of how much study time and sermon prep time would be returned to God's people when you solve this challenge. It's a HUGE number - hours per user returned to him/her. Think about it...

Ok, done explaining. More importantly, let's all keep pressing in to Him.

Dave

Posts 22095
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 2 2014 3:13 PM

Hi David

David Geipel:
Today, I was met with this screen for 50 minutes (first 60% of the reindex)... notice I can't use the application - the home page doesn't even load.

David Geipel:
Before it gave me this one while it finished the last 40% (around 50 minutes into waiting for the homepage to load)

I know indexing can take a toll on a machine but I don't recall people talking about nearly two hours into indexing before being able to get to the homepage

I know that on another thread where you were discussing this you posted some logs but that was while you had automatic downloads set to yes (and downloads were interrupting indexing)

Do you have any logs for the current scenario which might throw some light on why indexing is having such an impact?

Graham 

Posts 787
James Hiddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 2 2014 3:13 PM

David Geipel:

"Try and keep some perspective on Logos' performance. Mine is that we're greatly blessed."
Amen #Mab. I am too.

My main challenge to the Logos team in solving the problem of index lag / downtime:

How much Study Time & Sermon Prep Time can you return to your customers?
-or-
How can you give God's people "His time" back so they can do ministry?

I've been around software for a long time as many seem to have a similar history on this forum. I understand the basics of indexing but this repeat issue seems to remind me it's not ideal... it can be better... it should be better. I hate to run an update or even to purchase anything new for Logos - because it's a major issue to reindex. It's really more of the unknown such as: "ok, how long will I have to wait this time..." My previous poor experiences may have resulted from low HD space. For example I was amazed to see once it was done indexing, it returned 4-6GBs back to my available space every time. I really wanted v6 to be a better engine but the update / upgrade didn't seem to accomplish it - yet.

I am not a developer or programmer, but I submit my ideas to the community with the hope it helps others think about it differently (no Apple pun intended). Another idea I've had for some time is to look at the problem from a different perspective. For example, perhaps they can post an update with an optional index download... I would rather spend resources downloading than indexing. So if Logos can put more emphasis on a slightly larger download than a longer indexing process, please, sign me up. In other words, include part of the index file with the download to cut the index time in half or more... Just sharing a one-off idea but who knows, I am sure a techie will jump in and tell me to stop offering suggestions.

For Example:

Today, I was met with this screen for 50 minutes (first 60% of the reindex)... notice I can't use the application - the home page doesn't even load.

Before it gave me this one while it finished the last 40% (around 50 minutes into waiting for the homepage to load).

Note: the difference is that I couldn't do anything for 45-50 minutes while it was indexing UNTIL it hit some unknown threshold and then the homepage appeared with a recap of the update it was indexing. And before you comment on the # of resources added, I hope you step back to ask why we have accepted that a large number of resources should take that long. It was a few free periodicals and old classical works - so nothing too crazy :)

See why I am a bit compelled to push on this sore spot? It's a tender spot, I understand. But I won't sit back and say ok, that's acceptable just because it's a large collection or I've downloaded 100, 500 or 1000 books (and what do I expect)... That never enters my thoughts when I think about how it SHOULD behave. Ten years ago I would agree, it should take time. Today, not acceptable.

Also - any way to include Logos index in Spotlight? Why can't we use spotlight to find reference material? Just curious... I am sure my Mac would crank out a new index multiple times quicker. Not a shot... just saying.

Anyways, back to the main topic of indexing woes - I just spoke to my professor this afternoon who told me his PC took a week to reindex when he moved up to v6... Ouch. So do I feel better, maybe, but not really because that's crazy. While he might not complain or provide "critical feedback" as I like to do, because yes, I will be "that person" to say - this is not the best it can be, period. So Logos team, let's work harder to get it right for all of us. If you have a blog post detailed like your outage post, I would LOVE to subscribe and hear about what you've done to solve this challenge. If it's reaching out to other companies, I am sure you will find one or two other companies with larger data sets who could provide their insight. I think a challenge would be cool too - challenge developers to help you. Never know what could result. A nice ministry to the tech world.

Bottom line: think of how much study time and sermon prep time would be returned to God's people when you solve this challenge. It's a HUGE number - hours per user returned to him/her. Think about it...

Ok, done explaining. More importantly, let's all keep pressing in to Him.

Dave

Wow a week to index. I wonder how much he has or what his system is index that slow?

Posts 8084
LogosEmployee

David Geipel:

Today, I was met with this screen for 50 minutes (first 60% of the reindex)... notice I can't use the application - the home page doesn't even load.

Being unable to use the application while indexing before is definitely not by design.

When this happened, did you click the "Home" icon on the toolbar? If so, did it do anything?

Were all the other menus inoperable? E.g., could you open books by using the Library icon? What about Documents and Guides?

Posts 2305
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 2 2014 3:50 PM

4GB RAM with Yosemite(and ML and L) is cutting things a bit too fine. I use nearly that amount before opening Logos. There's a neat little utility called FreeMemory on the App Store. It's free and you really should give it a try. I use it whenever I'm running Logos, especially for indexing. OS X doesn't readily give RAM back and this does. 

Also try running Activity Monitor and see what else is hogging your resources. The more room you can give Logos the better. 

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 40
David Geipel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 2 2014 8:28 PM

Hey Graham-

Seemed odd to me too... Here's my archive is that helps someone debug. Thanks everyone.

Dave7457.LogosLogs.dgeipel.20141202-123122.zip

Posts 40
David Geipel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 2 2014 8:31 PM

Great suggestions #Mab. I use Memory Magic and it seems to do the trick. Since freeing up 75GB on the SSD, it's running much smoother, but again, indexing might well just be the Logos Achilles heel for some time.

Dave

PS - so happy the download today was super quick... Glad the fixed the Mac issue there via a terminal line fix. Nice job Logos. KUDOS.

Posts 40
David Geipel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 2 2014 8:37 PM

Hey #Bradley - thanks for the reply. Yeah, I know in the past a reindex was delicate - taking hours so I didn't think it would still work. However, at 50% or so I did TRY to hit the upper right icon (home icon) and even the resource one or two times. I'd like to say at one point the resources showed but then disappeared... No idea why. Probably lag if you're telling me it should have responded...

Without a homepage view, it looks like Logos is hung, so I didn't press my luck. Last time I hit pause... the index started over again, from scratch (it appeared) so I didn't want to mess anything up if you know what I mean :)

Just attached my logs if that helps. I think I archived them right before I restarted.

Dave

Posts 22095
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 2 2014 11:46 PM

Hi David

David Geipel:
Seemed odd to me too... Here's my archive is that helps someone debug. Thanks everyone.

It needs someone more qualified than me to look at the indexer.log in detail but it doesn't seem to be showing any issues.

It reports that indexing the Bible Index completed in 32 minutes (at 11:06:19) and then the main library index started at 11:09 which took 1 hour and 5 minutes and finished at 12:15.

Total indexing time - including some tidy up - was 1 hour and 51 minutes.

That seems consistent with the times you reported in your original post.

Sorry but I can't get anymore out of it - hopefully someone else will be able to

Posts 25103
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 3 2014 3:30 AM

David Geipel:

Hey Graham-

Seemed odd to me too... Here's my archive is that helps someone debug. Thanks everyone.

Dave7457.LogosLogs.dgeipel.20141202-123122.zip

With indexing complete are there any resources in /Users/dgeipel/Library/Application Support/Logos4/Data/qstf5yjd.ys6/ResourceManager/Downloaded/?  How many and what LLS numbers?

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 40
David Geipel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 5 2014 10:15 AM

Hi Dave-

Finally got to digging into that folder and didn't find anything in the folder... it was empty. Also, seems odd that I have a v4 folder since I started with version 5... IDK. Thanks for your help.

Dave

Posts 27810
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 5 2014 11:21 AM

For some boring technical reason I don't understand, ALL installations on Mac are placed in a "Logos 4" folder. New PC installations are placed in an L5 or L6 folder. 

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 40
David Geipel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 5 2014 11:35 AM

It does seem odd to me too... as if they don't have a proper script to move them from one folder to a new one and delete the old... OR to rename the folder upon an upgrade. I only started with v5 so the v4 was a real shocker. Perhaps they can tidy this up in the future. I bet we'll have to wait till v7 comes out (v7, code name: perfection).

Posts 25103
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 5 2014 11:49 AM

David Geipel:
Finally got to digging into that folder and didn't find anything in the folder... it was empty.

Good. There's no residual that could cause repeated attempts at discovery.

It discovered 1483 resources and moved them into the Resources folder in about 3 min, which is quite fast. The overall indexing time is on a par with my Windows i5 laptop with SSD. SSD's need about 20% free space for performance and longevity, but some can slow dramatically after filling to 50% (although still faster than a hard drive). So if it has a toolbox and it recommends regular maintenance runs then do it! Otherwise a secure delete followed by reloading the drive is the only way to recover performance.

David Geipel:
Also, seems odd that I have a v4 folder since I started with version 5...

That's the norm for Mac's. Windows could have a Logos4 or Logos5 folder, whilst the default for a fresh install is Logos.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 2305
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 5 2014 5:50 PM

Legacy code remnants have a remarkable longevity. Doubt that Logos developers are old enough to remember what it means to pull up your socks.  

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Page 1 of 1 (19 items) | RSS