ALWAYS include page numbers in ALL resources

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 21 2015 3:59 AM

Jack Caviness:
This did not work in the NAC volume on Acts

Both test and proposed solution are not the most useful to explore the functionality of such workarounds. 

For one, any referencing that is ultimately linked to a specific software (rather than the resource in general) is problematic. What if the reader has it in print, on a Kindle or in Accordance? So an address in Logos or a location in Kindle is not readily accessible to all readers. 

With regard to Bible referenced resources, such as commentaries, even if there were no page numbers, it might refer to the corresponding entry's biblical reference (e.g., Acts 2:18). This can be "close enough" provided that the treatment of that section is not too lengthy. However there are huge commentaries out there and long excursuses and sometimes appendixes for which indication of the Bible reference would not do.

The ones that I have tried all have page numbers. That's very good, but it means I cannot test copying a text selection and seeing how Logos references it when there are no page numbers in that resource. It would be good if someone who has such a resource could test this and report (paste the citation?). From what was said earlier I inferred that it may be the case for some EEC volumes? 

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 21 2015 4:48 AM

Francis:
any referencing that is ultimately linked to a specific software (rather than the resource in general) is problematic. What if the reader has it in print, on a Kindle or in Accordance? So an address in Logos or a location in Kindle is not readily accessible to all readers. 

That's why Logos puts the page numbers of the printed version into it. 

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 21 2015 4:49 AM

Francis:

Jack Caviness:
This did not work in the NAC volume on Acts

Both test and proposed solution are not the most useful to explore the functionality of such workarounds. 

I was not checking the workaround. I filed a bug report in the wrong thread Stick out tongue I created a bug report in the Logos 6 forum. then came back to delete the erroneous post, but you have already responded Big Smile

Francis:
For one, any referencing that is ultimately linked to a specific software (rather than the resource in general) is problematic. What if the reader has it in print, on a Kindle or in Accordance? So an address in Logos or a location in Kindle is not readily accessible to all readers.

Personally, I was using that link for a personal book, which I believe is the intended purpose of the feature.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 21 2015 1:06 PM

Francis:

For one, any referencing that is ultimately linked to a specific software (rather than the resource in general) is problematic. What if the reader has it in print, on a Kindle or in Accordance?

Okay I'm getting bored ... what if someone has a different edition etc.; we're talking a new variation on an old problem.

MLA solution:

How do I cite an e-book?

In general, a work formatted for reading on an electronic device like Kindle, Nook, and iPad is covered by 5.7.18. Begin the entry in the works-cited list like the entry for a comparable printed work and end it with a designation of the medium of publication. The medium is the type of electronic file, such as Kindle file, Nook file, EPUB file, or PDF file. If you cannot identify the file type, use Digital file. For example:

Rowley, Hazel. Franklin and Eleanor: An Extraordinary Marriage. New York: Farrar, 2010. Kindle file.

If the work presents electronic and print publication information, the electronic information should usually be cited.

Most electronic readers include a numbering system that tells users their location in the work. Do not cite this numbering, because it may not appear consistently to other users. If the work is divided into stable numbered sections like chapters, the numbers of those sections may be cited, with a label identifying the nature of the number (6.4.2):

According to Hazel Rowley, Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt began their honeymoon with a week’s stay at Hyde Park (ch. 2).

or

Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt began their honeymoon with a week’s stay at Hyde Park (Rowley, ch. 2).

(The abbreviation ch. is shown in 7.4. There is a comma in a parenthetical citation after the author’s name if the following reference begins with a word.)

If the work is a PDF file with fixed pages, cite the page numbers. If the work lacks any kind of stable section numbering, the work has to be cited as a whole (6.4.1).

======================

For other styles a web search brings up similar information. So if you want page numbers, its fine to want page numbers. Just don't base the need on an out-of-date reason.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 21 2015 1:10 PM

delete

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Eli Evans (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 22 2015 12:42 PM

Jack Caviness:

Eli Evans:
In Logos, you can use the "Copy location" feature (located in the panel menu, or by Ctrl+Shift+C on Windows) to generate a globally unique URL for exactly the position you want to cite

This did not work in the NAC volume on Acts:

I copied this text:

The signs referred to in vv. 19–20 have often perplexed interpreters. Did Peter see them as having transpired at Pentecost, or did he relegate them to the final times, to the period of the second coming? Did he perhaps include them only in order to get to the crucial v. 21 with its reference to salvation, which would become the final appeal of his sermon?

However, the Copy Location feature yielded:

[[Acts 2:17–21 >> logosres:nac26;ref=Bible.Ac2.17-21;off=2166]]

This takes me to the Bible milestone Acts 2:17-21, not to the selected material. Every other resource I have checked works properly.

I just copied the same quote (using the URL location style; looks like you're using WIKI, which is useful for PBB but not citations) and got this:

logosres:nac26;ref=Bible.Ac2.17-21;off=2246

Note the different offset (which counts the number of characters from the beginning of the article to the beginning of the quotation).

Don't know why yours was different. Fluke?

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 22 2015 1:22 PM

Eli Evans:

I just copied the same quote (...) and got this: logosres:nac26;ref=Bible.Ac2.17-21;off=2246

Note the different offset (which counts the number of characters from the beginning of the article to the beginning of the quotation).

Eli,

Jack took this into its own thread here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/99569.aspx - but the point here is that IIRC there's a longstanding bug that Logos can't position on the offset (maybe I'm remmbering wrong) and that Logos in 80% of selections puts in the precise ctx-part to the reference.

Mick

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

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Eli Evans (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 23 2015 6:29 AM

Thanks for the heads up. The ctx parameter is added because offsets can sometimes change from version to version in a resource, eg, when we fix a typo that changes the length of the text.

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 25 2015 5:28 PM

What do you think of this proposal?

If the book exists in print, by all means let's use the print page-numbering system, so people can easily identify key bits of text in easily transferable ways.

When there is no print, I suggest we use the textual units already built right into the content: volumes, chapters, sections, paragraphs, sentences, words (a la Calvin's Institutes: 2.4.7)—at least for resources that don't already have a built-in referencing system (Bible-based, term-based, etc.).

I imagine something like this: Piper, Desiring God​, 10.2.5. This would stand for chapter 10, section 2, paragraph 5. That's clear, meaningful, and relatively easy to find in print or digital formats. We could create a visual filter that would expose this built-in structure with the section and paragraph numbers.

Would something like this meet your needs?

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 25 2015 5:45 PM

Phil Gons:
I imagine something like this: Piper, Desiring God​, 10.2.5. This would stand for chapter 10, section 2, paragraph 5. That's clear, meaningful, and relatively easy to find in print or digital formats. We could create a visual filter that would expose this built-in structure with the section and paragraph numbers.

That would work fine for me, although I'd like to see it an option in all resources without page numbers, even those where they page number does exist in print format (e.g. Vyrso books).

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Robert M. Warren | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 25 2015 6:31 PM

Kyle G. Anderson:
Wow. When I arrived to work this morning I wasn't anticipating this many responses.

Rhapsody On A Theme Of Pagination

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Kevin Maples | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 25 2015 6:37 PM

Phil Gons:
If the book exists in print, by all means let's use the print page-numbering system, so people can easily identify key bits of text in easily transferable ways.
 That would be wonderful. 

Phil Gons:
When there is no print, I suggest we use the textual units already built right into the content: volumes, chapters, sections, paragraphs, sentences, words (a la Calvin's Institutes: 2.4.7)
That's a very good suggestion. How does that correspond to the unit numbers used for ancient writings? Does the last number always refer to a paragraph? I really don't know, but if so this could be a very clear and concise reference. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 25 2015 6:44 PM

Good solution Phil.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 25 2015 10:50 PM

Kevin Maples:
Phil Gons:
When there is no print, I suggest we use the textual units already built right into the content: volumes, chapters, sections, paragraphs, sentences, words (a la Calvin's Institutes: 2.4.7)
That's a very good suggestion. How does that correspond to the unit numbers used for ancient writings? Does the last number always refer to a paragraph? I really don't know, but if so this could be a very clear and concise reference. 

In the Calvin example, it's book, chapter, section. In the madeup Piper example, it was chapter, section (designated by top-level headings within chapters), paragraph. I think it should start with the highest unit of text and work down. Calvin's universal referencing system is well established, but you could in theory extend it and make it more precise by adding paragraph and sentence to the end: Calvin's Institutes: 2.4.7.2.3 (book, chapter, section, paragraph, sentence), though you might run into some variations among the various translations at that level. Not sure. In the Piper example, you could get more precise as well: Piper, Desiring God​, 10.2.5.3 (chapter, section, paragraph, sentence). But it seems that identifying the paragraph-level text is sufficient and usually more precise than page numbers would be.

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 25 2015 11:47 PM

Phil Gons:

When there is no print, I suggest we use the textual units already built right into the content: volumes, chapters, sections, paragraphs, sentences, words (a la Calvin's Institutes: 2.4.7)—at least for resources that don't already have a built-in referencing system (Bible-based, term-based, etc.).

I imagine something like this: Piper, Desiring God​, 10.2.5. This would stand for chapter 10, section 2, paragraph 5. That's clear, meaningful, and relatively easy to find in print or digital formats.

It is a good idea but I am a bit unsure about it. Part of the need is to allow citations to be easily found by others who need not have access to the logos edition. There are resources that do have well-numbered chapters, paragraphs and sub-sections. Indeed, in those what you propose would be universal enough (universality is what makes page numbers such an effective system). For books that have fewer sections, your system could be fairly painless to use to find something. For more complex books that have a solid number of sections in a chapter and not a few paragraphs, this would involve quite a bit of counting to get to the place the reference points to. Your visual filter would make it painless for us to cite but it might remain painful for others to track back our citations.

Unless of course, I misunderstand how you envision your proposal to work.

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Kevin A Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 26 2015 1:38 AM

Phil Gons:

When there is no print, I suggest we use the textual units already built right into the content: volumes, chapters, sections, paragraphs, sentences, words (a la Calvin's Institutes: 2.4.7)—at least for resources that don't already have a built-in referencing system (Bible-based, term-based, etc.).

I imagine something like this: Piper, Desiring God​, 10.2.5. This would stand for chapter 10, section 2, paragraph 5. That's clear, meaningful, and relatively easy to find in print or digital formats.

HI Phil

This is certainly a good approach - a citation could then use these and if one adds "Logos edition" in the citation that would at least give a clear "benchmark". Actually it is no worse than titles that currently appear in multiple print editions, i.e. most classic works.

However if print editions are available page numbers should be used.

I would "strongly" urge ePublishers to assign page numbers "as if" the title was in print.!!!!!!

But Logos should do what they can using the technique Phil suggests (in my view) and also petition ePublishers for page numbers in their output!

Shalom.

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Kevin Maples | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 26 2015 8:12 AM

Phil Gons:
But it seems that identifying the paragraph-level text is sufficient and usually more precise than page numbers would be.
Yes, the paragraph is sufficient. Identifying a sentence would be overkill. If the book had short sections, identifying a section would be sufficient, but most books are not divided into short sections which means the paragraph identification would be needed. 

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 4 2015 6:12 AM

The latest example of how annoying it can be when there are no page numbers: how am I to judge the extensiveness of this volume?

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 4 2015 6:26 AM

Francis:

The latest example of how annoying it can be when there are no page numbers: how am I to judge the extensiveness of this volume?

You are moving targets from page numers within the resource (which in this case has them!) to page numbers in the description. FWIW Amazon.com lists the printed version with 654 pages.

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 4 2015 7:14 AM

Moving "targets" uh? Interesting...

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