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Virgil Buttram | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Mar 18 2015 6:28 AM

Any possibility of a Lutheran Diamond base package? Perhaps even a Lutheran Portfolio?

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Nick Steffen | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 18 2015 7:52 AM

Do you have a wishlist of items you'd like included?

Posts 353
Virgil Buttram | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 18 2015 8:12 AM

Fair question.

Off of the top of my head, I'd like to see Luther's Works included. Other candidates would be Melanchthon's Loci Communes, both the 1521 and 1543 editions, and the works of Martin Chemnitz (Loci Theologici, Examination of the Council of Trent, Enchiridion, Two Natures in Christ). Most of those are in Logos Edition already, just not in a Lutheran base package.

Those alone might not warrant a full Diamond package, though. I'd also suggest more Biblical language resources, similar to the higher base packages in other traditions in their inclusion of BDAG (Standard Platinum, Baptist Diamond) and HALOT (Baptist Diamond, Standard Portfolio).

Not sure if that would be enough, but it would be a start.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 18 2015 2:45 PM

Faithlife generally expands the upper end of packages when they have sufficient offerings to create it. As I recall their licensing with Concordia does not allow them to include those products in a generic Lutheran package. And, as you may have noticed, the packages sell products at a deep discount ... some publishers limit the discount. Your best bet is to keep suggesting and pushing for specific resources so that Faithlife grows a catalogue from which they can create a Diamond package.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 353
Virgil Buttram | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 18 2015 3:25 PM

MJ. Smith:

Faithlife generally expands the upper end of packages when they have sufficient offerings to create it. As I recall their licensing with Concordia does not allow them to include those products in a generic Lutheran package. And, as you may have noticed, the packages sell products at a deep discount ... some publishers limit the discount. Your best bet is to keep suggesting and pushing for specific resources so that Faithlife grows a catalogue from which they can create a Diamond package.

I was reluctant to call out any publishers, especially my denomination's own publishing house - but you're right. A lot of good Lutheran material comes from Concordia, and from others left unnamed, who appear to be more restrictive in their licensing with Faithlife.

More's the pity.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 18 2015 4:20 PM

I mentioned Concordia only because it was explicitly mentioned by a Faithlife employee in response to questions on the content of the current Lutheran packages. Given that I am not Lutheran and most Lutherans I've known are Apostolic Lutheran, I can't speak to the more general Lutheran politics.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 353
Virgil Buttram | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 18 2015 4:48 PM

MJ. Smith:

I mentioned Concordia only because it was explicitly mentioned by a Faithlife employee in response to questions on the content of the current Lutheran packages. Given that I am not Lutheran and most Lutherans I've known are Apostolic Lutheran, I can't speak to the more general Lutheran politics.

I've heard similar from elsewhere.

It's a business decision by each publisher, Concordia and others*, as to how licensing content through Faithlife will impact their business. Frustratingly, some* have decided that Faithlife's more-attractive-to-us-customers bundling and discounting practices would have an unacceptable impact on their business and have licensed their content accordingly. Still, their content is available in Logos Editions, and that is, overall, a salutary thing.

Back to topic, I haven't done as much research on Lutheran-ish resources from non-Lutheran publishers, so I can't add anything to a list of potential Lutheran Diamond resources other than the above.

*another example: Zondervan/Nelson, as discussed in other threads.

Posts 5127
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 18 2015 8:41 PM

I would expect an upper-end package to have some top-tier commentaries. I think I suggested Interpretation for a Lutheran package a year or so ago. I'm not exactly sure it is Lutheran per se, but many of the contributors seem to be of similar disposition. There is also the possibility of including this collection in a Lutheran package. I also think this collection should be included in a Lutheran package. It got stalled in CP because some genius Roll Eyes bid $72 and it got stuck. I've encouraged folks to bid $32 to move the peak. One or two other quality commentaries, even if they aren't exactly Lutheran, would "sweeten the pot" for the next level of Lutheran base package. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 18 2015 11:36 PM

I think of Interpretation as more in the UCC-Methodist spectrum. Northwestern (WELS) is on the conservative edge of the Lutherans (well not compared to Apostolic but ..) Seiss is a practical suggestion, Kretzmann is Concordia but likely public domain

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 934
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2015 8:37 AM

Anyone have any information about whether progress has been made and whether we can expect a Lutheran Diamond 7 package to eventually show up?

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2015 9:00 AM

Matthew:

Anyone have any information about whether progress has been made and whether we can expect a Lutheran Diamond 7 package to eventually show up?

I don't have any inside information on L7 base packages, and I don't know about Diamond or other higher level packages, but looking at the CP production line I have the definitive feeling that Logos intends to beef up future Lutheran base Packages (especially since one widely remarked-upon lack of the current line is works actually authored by Dr. Martin L himself).

Whether those end up in a revamped L7 Lutheran Silver - which many might prefer - or Diamond is pure speculation. On the other hand, maybe the tangible proof that Logos can compile Lutheran BPs with or without the 'official' LW will help persuade the publisher to get on board with it...    

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Posts 353
Virgil Buttram | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2015 9:18 AM

NB.Mick:

I don't have any inside information on L7 base packages, and I don't know about Diamond or other higher level packages, but looking at the CP production line I have the definitive feeling that Logos intends to beef up future Lutheran base Packages (especially since one widely remarked-upon lack of the current line is works actually authored by Dr. Martin L himself).

Whether those end up in a revamped L7 Lutheran Silver - which many might prefer - or Diamond is pure speculation. On the other hand, maybe the tangible proof that Logos can compile Lutheran BPs with or without the 'official' LW will help persuade the publisher to get on board with it...    

Not sure if that would be sufficient to influence the publisher of LW or not. I have a small amount of second-hand "insider" information about that particular publisher, and based on that I perceive a substantial challenge remaining in securing greater cooperation from them.

Posts 1779
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2015 2:40 PM

I for one am happy that there are Lutheran base packages. And yet they are not totally satisfying. I am not even sure how to come up with a fair base package that would be appealing to all or even most Lutherans, though - and this pains me... I know that this topic is about a higher level Lutheran package, but I am more concerned about the lower end that would be interesting to get people into the Logos/Faithlife system.

First thing I would want changed would be to include the NIV, or at least the RI's for it, in most of the base packages. It is a very popular translation. Yes. It has its issues - and my LC-MS has jumped firmly onto the ESV bandwagon. And yet it is a translation many of us use. And to my knowledge, it is the standard one for WELS. While we are on the Bible translation thing, I generally see formal equivalent translations in the Lutheran packages. I for one prefer this for base translations for study, but find that comparing with more dynamic ones is quite useful in study.

For commentaries, it is hard to have something that would not be divisive to some Lutherans. K&D and Lenski are old standards. But I had not even heard of the Lutheran Commentary until I started looking for stuff to make PB's years ago. I have never seen it in Pastor or Church libraries, and I have been more than a bit of a rat hanging out around them for a while. Perhaps something like the Kretzmann or the Knowles The Bible Guide?

Bible Dictionaries are quite weak in the current packages. I don't mind too much for myself since I have picked up more than a few of them in Logos over the years. But something like the IVP New Bible Dictionary would be quite welcome.

Hermeneutics/Exegesis section is quite weak. It is a shame that it does not include documents from any of the Lutheran bodies about this - even though it has been hotly debated... But the largest Lutheran body has been having a "Book of Faith" initiative and nothing from this is included?

Biblical Studies section? Nothing that interesting to me - but I look at Logos as a tool to do bible studies instead of a place to look for bible studies...

Systematic and Historical Theology is sort of the biggest strength of the current offerings. It has some top drawer researches on Luther Study. It has some important works. And yet it is quite weak in Luther/Melanchthon/Chemnitz - the founding fathers, so to speak. I know that there are serious rights problems for this in English... At least throw in one of the editions of the one volume "Basic Theological Writings"!

Liturgy and Worship? Some important historical sources. But nothing that we would actually use on Sundays. This drastically limits the interest to the average Lutheran in the pew. A few works by modern Lutherans on this would be nice too. Senn, Lathrup, Pfatteicher, Peter Brunner, and Ylvisaker have written things that would be interesting for me at least.

Lets go back to basics. Bible. Catechism. Hymnal. Logos does OK with Bible - but having the NIV as an option would make it more appealing to many. Catechism - It is included in the Book of Concord, so it IS there. But to be more user-friendly, a stand-alone book would be helpful. And Hymnal. You do well with the lectionaries - and this is a very good start. But some other texts would be good as well. Yes, you would have to arrange this with the publishing houses. But something like this would be much more appealing to show off to my friends in the pew.

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Posts 537
Fasil | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 21 2015 8:54 AM

I see a lot of Lutheran Community Pricing books . Probably they are preparing them for the next base package. I would like to see a true Lutheran Packages with good resources. I would like to see more books from Concordia Publishing House.

Posts 97
Martin Diers | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 21 2016 9:50 PM

Don't get me started on CPH's pricing policies. They are terrible. Yes, they offer subscriptions for some of the more common material (Luther, Walther, Gerhard), but the price they want for electronic editions is outrageous. Anything off the beaten path is even worse. $30-$50 for a paperback edition of the more scholarly works. This is elitist pricing.

Yes, they offer the catechism, hymnals, and the confessions for a much reduced price, which is good. But even with these, they are copyright hounds — particularly with their hymns and liturgies. People will pay for good quality hardbound worship material, but the central material of Christian worship should not be lawyered up. Luther would shudder.

Posts 4839
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 22 2016 5:18 AM

Martin Diers:
Anything off the beaten path is even worse. $30-$50 for a paperback edition of the more scholarly works. This is elitist pricing.

That is standard academic pricing, even on the lower end of things.

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Posts 353
Virgil Buttram | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 22 2016 6:25 AM

Martin Diers:

Don't get me started on CPH's pricing policies. They are terrible. Yes, they offer subscriptions for some of the more common material (Luther, Walther, Gerhard), but the price they want for electronic editions is outrageous. Anything off the beaten path is even worse. $30-$50 for a paperback edition of the more scholarly works. This is elitist pricing.

Yes, they offer the catechism, hymnals, and the confessions for a much reduced price, which is good. But even with these, they are copyright hounds — particularly with their hymns and liturgies. People will pay for good quality hardbound worship material, but the central material of Christian worship should not be lawyered up. Luther would shudder.

I have come to understand that such pricing for electronic editions is common for smaller publishing houses* (of which CPH is definitely one) who need a certain price per sale to cover all costs, not just the incremental cost of the copy sold. It's unfortunate and undesirable from our perspective.

*Larger publishing houses are beginning to do the same in response to continuing decline in sales. The economics in their case appears to be more complex.

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