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This post has 297 Replies | 18 Followers

Posts 2194
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 10:46 AM

Phil Gons:
Logos is one of my few remaining apps that keeps me locked to a traditional computer.
Phil Gons:
I'm growing increasingly tired of desktop software, the risk of

Yes, Phil.  I understand this. I really do.  I can identify.  But just some thoughts for Faithlife to keep in mind:

Not all places on earth have internet connection.  Not all places on earth will allow a logos internet connection.  There is something to be said about having Logos in some form in the future as downloadable.  This can be similar to Kindle, where we can download what we want to read, and perhaps have a basic application that will allow for basic functions at times when the internet is not a viable option, or when there is an internet glitch or cloud problem.

Up to now, the model has been a downloadable desktop version and basic function on a web based version.  It does make sense that the web based version gets developed and that it eventually becomes the dominant version.  It should not replace the desktop, but can become the dominant version.  The desktop model may drastically change, but does not disappear.  I know that for now, and for the foreseeable future, there is no plan to get rid of the desktop version.  And many are glad about that.  And the push for a web based version is fine.

A web based version does not have to mean renting is the only possibility.  Kindle books are purchased.  But the Kindle system is web based.  They have not seemed to yet figure out that if they had a better system to organize the library, that more would get excited over the possibilities.  But they probably dont see that because what they have is working for now.  Just wont work when people have 1000 or 2000 books in Kindle.  But Logos can have a web based version where books are owned and can be downloaded into a desktop or phone or tablet interface.  Perhaps all resources will not be able to fit on a device.  But plenty would that would allow for basic functions such as searching offline.

Posts 286
James Hudson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 11:47 AM

Lynden Williams:

Mark Barnes:
But, generally, you're right — and I would also much prefer that the new datasets were available to purchase.

Old Testament Propositonal Bible Outline 39.95

Greek Grammatical Constructions Dataset 14.95

Commandments of the Law 5.95

Visual Copy Templates 24.95

Author Slide Templates 24.95

Logos Stock Media vol. 24.95

Total cost if purchased seperately: $135.70

Monthly $8.95

If the point of this post is the 'great' cost [$8.95 v $135.70]], then this seems a false argument. With a single payment [in the example quoted for these resources] of $135.70, I would own the 'resources/datasets' etc forever, rather than paying $90 pa [for the rest of my life if I wanted to keep them, - if I didn't pay my $90 after the 3rd year, for example, I loose them all even though I had paid $270 to Logos].

I guess secondly, if Logos goes under, I would also have(own) the 'resources'. Using a rental model, if Logos goes down, I will loose the resources [I guess that Logos does a 'phone home' each month to check that I've subscribed this month - so if there is noone to phone home to, I guess the resources will become disabled!]. Furthermore, with server outages a real possibilty [see this last year], there are real issues with this system.

Thus, Logos Now seems to be not only MORE EXPENSIVE, it is also LESS SECURE!

PS On a separate note, I don't understand why a 6 weekly cycle logically implies ONLY a rental system. I'd pay for updates every 6 weeks under the buy-to-own model!

Every blessing,

James

Posts 316
Bruce Roth | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 12:15 PM

A couple of questions based on my observations; I hope are correct.

Observations.

  1. This is an 'upgrade” of the Biblia web app, with a lot of functionality yet to come

  2. I will have new functionality of datasets and such that are not currently in the desktop version but once you sign up some of these will be installed in your desktop version as long as you subscribe.

  3. I still have the current full functionality and resources that I have in the desktop version 6 and updates will continue.

  4. There are two subscriptions, Logos and Verbum.

Questions:

  1. At the present time I have Verbum as my primary desktop and Logos desktop as a beta tester. In the past, depending on the package promotions I have alternated back and forth between the two systems. I understand that they are currently the same but at some point may diverge. (That has been tossed around since the beginning). Can I assume that I can currently exist with only one subscription? Does the migration of features flow between the two apps; Logos and Verbum or do I end up with only one set of new features, say in the Verbum app if I subscribe via Verbum?

  2. What impact does this have if any on the existing mobile apps for IOS or Android?

  3. Is there any easy way that would identify the features that were installed in the desktop unique to the Logos Now that would disappear if one canceled their subscription?

There are probably other questions as well. A lot of my observations have been hashed out in the thread so I'll keep quiet.

Posts 3808
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 12:17 PM

Mark:
Not all places on earth will allow a logos internet connection.

Our local (upstate NY) Taco Bells allow no religious sites, including LOGOS.

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 24
Bill Roth | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 12:26 PM

It seems that all Logos would have to do is promise free crossgrades after, say 24 months of Logos Now, and people would be clamoring to subscribe.  Or maybe offer the next crossgrade on dynamic pricing that honestly accounts for the preceding Logos Now subscription.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 12:35 PM

William Roth:
It seems that all Logos would have to do is promise free crossgrades after, say 24 months of Logos Now, and people would be clamoring to subscribe.  Or maybe offer the next crossgrade on dynamic pricing that honestly accounts for the preceding Logos Now subscription.

Welcome, William.

I think you are on the right track, but so far Faithlife has not made any promises. I think it would strengthen the offering considerably for Faithlife to make a specific commitment to some sort of dynamic or discounted pricing on future upgrades. The more folks who ask for this the better in my opinion.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 12:41 PM

Bruce Roth:

Observations.

  1. This is an 'upgrade” of the Biblia web app, with a lot of functionality yet to come

  2. I will have new functionality of datasets and such that are not currently in the desktop version but once you sign up some of these will be installed in your desktop version as long as you subscribe.

  3. I still have the current full functionality and resources that I have in the desktop version 6 and updates will continue.

  4. There are two subscriptions, Logos and Verbum.

I think you have all of that correctly.

Bruce Roth:
At the present time I have Verbum as my primary desktop and Logos desktop as a beta tester. In the past, depending on the package promotions I have alternated back and forth between the two systems. I understand that they are currently the same but at some point may diverge. (That has been tossed around since the beginning). Can I assume that I can currently exist with only one subscription? Does the migration of features flow between the two apps; Logos and Verbum or do I end up with only one set of new features, say in the Verbum app if I subscribe via Verbum?

All I've read indicates that for now both subscriptions get the same datasets and resources. So one subscription should be all you'd want until the two diverge.

Bruce Roth:
What impact does this have if any on the existing mobile apps for IOS or Android?

None that I am aware of. Faithlife has said that they'd like to let some of the new L6 functions work on the mobile apps (the Interactives, for example). So far that hasn't happened, but if it did, some of the Logos Now interactives would probably also be available on the mobile apps. Just conjecture at this point.

Bruce Roth:
Is there any easy way that would identify the features that were installed in the desktop unique to the Logos Now that would disappear if one canceled their subscription?

Not that I know of. We'll have to keep track via listings here in the Forum or on the Logos website.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 1130
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 12:50 PM

Mark Smith:

William Roth:
It seems that all Logos would have to do is promise free crossgrades after, say 24 months of Logos Now, and people would be clamoring to subscribe.  Or maybe offer the next crossgrade on dynamic pricing that honestly accounts for the preceding Logos Now subscription.

Welcome, William.

I think you are on the right track, but so far Faithlife has not made any promises. I think it would strengthen the offering considerably for Faithlife to make a specific commitment to some sort of dynamic or discounted pricing on future upgrades. The more folks who ask for this the better in my opinion.

This is definitely the issue that is troubling most of us. I have signed up for the "free month" to kick the tires, but if Logos does not give some credit towards the next base package upgrade, I think $8.99 per month is hard to justify. Perhaps I will be blow away by the "media and data" content that is independent of future base packages or perhaps the coupon offers will be fantastic. I hope Logos understand they have just one month to win us over. It only takes a click of a mouse to cancel.

Posts 25
James Hogg | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 1:22 PM

I would just like to state on record that I am really disappointed that Logos has went down this road. As some living in the UK, I cannot really accept this model due to currency fluctuations and bank charges in dealing in foreign currency. If Logos continue this that i will have to seriously consider wether I invest anymore money in it. I was at a probationers conference in the CofS recently extolling Logos to my fellow candidates, but i think i would be telling them to go with Concordance now.

Posts 3297
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 1:46 PM

James Hudson:

Lynden Williams:

Mark Barnes:
But, generally, you're right — and I would also much prefer that the new datasets were available to purchase.

Old Testament Propositonal Bible Outline 39.95

Greek Grammatical Constructions Dataset 14.95

Commandments of the Law 5.95

Visual Copy Templates 24.95

Author Slide Templates 24.95

Logos Stock Media vol. 24.95

Total cost if purchased seperately: $135.70

Monthly $8.95

If the point of this post is the 'great' cost [$8.95 v $135.70]], then this seems a false argument. With a single payment [in the example quoted for these resources] of $135.70, I would own the 'resources/datasets' etc forever, rather than paying $90 pa [for the rest of my life if I wanted to keep them, - if I didn't pay my $90 after the 3rd year, for example, I loose them all even though I had paid $270 to Logos].

I guess secondly, if Logos goes under, I would also have(own) the 'resources'. Using a rental model, if Logos goes down, I will loose the resources [I guess that Logos does a 'phone home' each month to check that I've subscribed this month - so if there is noone to phone home to, I guess the resources will become disabled!]. Furthermore, with server outages a real possibilty [see this last year], there are real issues with this system.

Thus, Logos Now seems to be not only MORE EXPENSIVE, it is also LESS SECURE!

PS On a separate note, I don't understand why a 6 weekly cycle logically implies ONLY a rental system. I'd pay for updates every 6 weeks under the buy-to-own model!

Every blessing,

James

Remember the 6 week cycle means more updated features so to say you will always be paying 8.95 for the current offering is not exactly the right way to look at it.

Teacher, Ministry Leader, Student, Author, Husband

How to upload logs

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Posts 32942
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 2:00 PM

Is this a fair summary of the response of the user base?

  • Some of us find our current feature set meets our needs and have no desire to add features by upgrade or subscription.
  • Some of us want additional features (any and all) and are ready to jump in for a subscription.
  • Some of us want to wait and see how the features and perks development before making a decision.
  • Some of us are concerned that this might be the first sign of a requirement that is unacceptable - dependence on internet, no downloadable form of full featured software, unknown financial commitments ...

It appears to me that all 4 positions can be reasonably justified ... it is simply a matter of understanding Faithlife's offer sufficiently to understand where you personally fall. For myself, this includes understanding how I actually use Logos rather than how I wish I had the time to use Logos. For some it means acknowledging that any proposed change leads to a period of anxiety that you need to work through. To me the important message to understand is:

  • Faithlife is providing additional options but you don't have to decide now.
  • When you decide, you are not locked into that decision but may change.
  • For the foreseeable future, we will continue to have the option to continue as we have in the past including periodic releases of major new versions AND we will have a new option to subscribe to a more immediate gratification model.

I personally will be interested  to see how we as users have distributed ourselves in 6 months, a year, at the point L7 is released ... and now that I know what features are in 6.2 I want to know what's planned for 6.3 ... after all there's only 42 shopping days till launch day!

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 2:17 PM

Don Awalt:
This makes a lot more sense to me thinking of it as membership not rental. Thanks for that revelation, it did not occur to me.

I agree with you Don that "membership" seems to encapsulate it better than "rental". When I was first introduced to Logos Now I had many concerns as well, but the more I began to understand it, the more convinced I was that it was a good thing. I truly think that many others will begin to think the same as time goes on.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 2:36 PM

James Hogg:

I would just like to state on record that I am really disappointed that Logos has went down this road. As some living in the UK, I cannot really accept this model due to currency fluctuations and bank charges in dealing in foreign currency. If Logos continue this that i will have to seriously consider wether I invest anymore money in it. I was at a probationers conference in the CofS recently extolling Logos to my fellow candidates, but i think i would be telling them to go with Concordance now.

James, I too live outside of the US and experience the same currency fluctuations. It can be a pain but it is a reality nonetheless.

It think that it is good to remember a few things as we reflect on this new direction for Faithlife.

  1. It is optional - and as such no one has to participate.
  2. Faithlife is positioning itself to reach a new type of Logos user - one that isn't necessarily interested in ownership. I think that most of us who use Logos now (including me) have embraced the ownership model but it doesn't suit everyone.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 1034
Mike Pettit | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 2:50 PM

Bruce Dunning:

James Hogg:

I would just like to state on record that I am really disappointed that Logos has went down this road. As some living in the UK, I cannot really accept this model due to currency fluctuations and bank charges in dealing in foreign currency. If Logos continue this that i will have to seriously consider wether I invest anymore money in it. I was at a probationers conference in the CofS recently extolling Logos to my fellow candidates, but i think i would be telling them to go with Concordance now.

James, I too live outside of the US and experience the same currency fluctuations. It can be a pain but it is a reality nonetheless.

It think that it is good to remember a few things as we reflect on this new direction for Faithlife.

  1. It is optional - and as such no one has to participate.
  2. Faithlife is positioning itself to reach a new type of Logos user - one that isn't necessarily interested in ownership. I think that most of us who use Logos now (including me) have embraced the ownership model but it doesn't suit everyone.

Faithlife also now has a large number of customers with large libraries that costs money to service who are not buying as many books as they once did. They need to generate an income stream from these customers if growth slows down (as it must at some stage). 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 3:10 PM

Mike Pettit:
Faithlife also now has a large number of customers with large libraries that costs money to service who are not buying as many books as they once did. They need to generate an income stream from these customers if growth slows down (as it must at some stage).

While this is generally true I find myself still buying resources such as Mobile Ed courses. Faithlife is still getting a lot of my money. But I am comfortable with that fact because I trust Bob Pritchett.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 3:30 PM

Phil Gons:

mike:

For $8.99/month that's a lot of money for small contents I'm getting.

Too expensive for offers that's so small that we have already. Not very entertaining I would say.

For Logos' MVPs and believers.. yes, they'll buy everything blindly, because they hang out here everyday. But for NORMAL people.. NO.

We already have regular Logos program, when the heck do we use Logos Now? I guess when we don't have our normal computer. But to justify $8.99 isn't enough for the content they're offering.

$3.99 .. maybe. But not $8.99.

Lucky Logos don't have a competition, soon, just like streaming music industry, everyone will price their product accordingly.

Right now, Logos is gouging the price because there no competition.. (with less contents).

.

(I smell so many Logos' cheerleaders), just be careful with what you read here as a regular joe person.

If you're not compelled yet, that's fine. Give us time. We have a lot more planned. (See Bob's comments earlier.)

There's room for different opinions on this. Others like the value, even seemingly "normal" people. :)

James Taylor:
For $8.99 a month? Count me in! Thank you Faithlife, this looks very good. Can't wait to take my first test ride on these new features. (indexing now... #Can'tWaitToGetAnSSD) and with the free trial month, this is a NO BRAINER!

Sean:
$9 a month for new cool features in Logos doesn't seem much at all, and I'm speaking as a poor missionary.

Nathan Parker:
Actually Logos Now is quite low cost compared to what I was going to tell him I was interested in paying. :-)

I think the price is pretty affordable. What I was going to recommend as "reasonable" to Bob was $100+/month (although you would get more content in that package than what's currently in Logos Now).

But $9/month for priority access to new datasets and the web app seem pretty reasonable to me. The fact that "more is coming" (discounts, etc.) are also appealing. I've emailed my sales rep to go for my free month trial and sign me up as soon as he has a chance to pull the trigger. Since he's a busy person, I'm willing to wait patiently for getting it activated though. I told him I want "Logos Now", not Logos "Now". :-)

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 3:32 PM

Phil Gons:

Sean:
My question as a systematic theologian is: does it have any features that will benefit me? As it is I don't use 90% of the search & Bible study features I've gotten from L4-6, and I don't particularly feel the need for more. What I do use are the many specific resources related to my field. Does Logos Now have anything to offer in that direction, or will it in the future?

Great question. As a PhD (ABD) in Theology with a love for systematic and historical theology, I'm passionate about seeing Logos become a better tool for theological study, not just for exegetical study. And I'm happy to report that we have some pretty cool things in the works for future releases that'll be right up your alley. In particular, there's a new guide section aimed at drawing out the riches of your systematics library.

In this release, the Concordance tool may prove useful for you. You can do some neat analysis of Calvin's Institutes, for example, to see what words he uses most in particular sections. A future version of Concordance will allow you to see everything Calvin cited, sorted by frequency. I see Concordance have broad use for exegetes, theologians, historians, and others.

If you have particular feature ideas, I'd love to hear them. Feel free to reach out to me at phil@faithlife.com.

I'd like to see more Theology stuff in Logos as well since I'm planning to major in Theology for my PhD. Preferably I'd like to see tools that can allow people to dig deeper into their Theology books and mine the information, even if they're new to Theology. Basically a "Theology Guide" report.

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

Posts 32
Dorothy Pollock | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 3:44 PM

Mark Smith:

Dorothy Pollock:
I love this program. It really changed my life with its many resources and got me into a bible study plan that has accelerated my yearly reading plan ahead by many months.

Dorothy, it is great to hear a testimony like this. I often try to get folks to see the value of an investment like Logos Bible software and they look at the price tag and freeze. As you know that investment is one time, but the dividends last a lifetime.

Well in full disclosure, I have to say I froze, thawed and then repeated that cycle for a few days until I pulled the trigger on Starter. Then I repeated that cycle when I found out I would need to do a Feature Crossgrade to get what I wanted in order to have some of the cool things my brother had in his Gold Level ;=)
I was blessed with my 23 yr old son buying me the Crossgrade as he apparently had been in wait for me to "finally want something that I would actually let him buy me" My brother informed me the other day he upgraded to Platinum....I told him I don't even want to think about it!
I am very happy where I am and add commentaries as I go.

Dorothy

Posts 3059
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 4:29 PM

Phil Gons:
Logos Now is intentionally not a library of books. For now, you shouldn't expect to see us adding books to it. Our perception of current customers is that they're passionate about owning their books. Our hope is that they may be able to find room for subscribing to the content and tools that power the core functionality of the software.

There is content that would offer incentive in rental/membership format, MobileEd. Due to the high price on our end I visit this content a small percentage of the time than what I would like to. I posit ownership of this content is less desirable than books.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 7 2015 4:34 PM

Dorothy Pollock:
I am very happy where I am and add commentaries as I go.

That's a nice story. I am sure your son feels good about finally buying something for his mother that she might not have bought for herself.

(Did you know that Logos offers a Wish List that you can share with others? Wink )

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

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