Why subscription
Let me start by saying, I know some of you hate subscription models, and that's okay. We intend to support our existing purchase model for the foreseeable future.
If you don't like subscriptions, it's fine if you just don't subscribe. We'll just keep offering you things you can buy.
Arguing about rent vs. own is like arguing about whether all ice cream cones should be chocolate or vanilla. People simply will not agree, can not be argued with or convinced, and it's just not that hard to offer both. :-)
But you may have noticed a trend towards subscription offerings for software / information products: Netflix, Pandora, Spotify, Adobe Creative Cloud, Office 365, Google Apps for Business, etc. Even things like Amazon Prime -- a weird hybrid membership / music / video / books subscription. And Logos Now.
By way of explanation (not argument -- I don't need you to agree or be convinced)... businesses like ours want to offer more things by subscription because:
- It provides more predictable revenue. Upgrades every few years bring in a nice hit of cash, but that cash gets used over time. Historically (long in the past) we got to the point of worrying about payroll and the rent as we neared the next product release. It's a scary and dangerous way to live, going feast to famine over and over. There's value to having revenue come in smoothly over time -- because most expenses for digital products companies are also smooth over time. (Payroll is the most significant -- we don't have physical inputs like metal or wood or other commodities.)
- The Internet and mobile apps create an expectation of ongoing support. We used to make a product, sell it to you, and be done. Sure, there might be some bug fixes, but often they were delivered on-demand for specific users, or even held until a future (paid) upgrade. (1990's software model.) Now people expect frequent updates, immediate bug fixes, and that the mobile apps are updated constantly to support the latest screen size, OS feature, handsets, etc. Moreover, people expect syncing of their data to the cloud (when you get a new phone you don't plan to copy off and then restore your personal data -- you expect to sign in and have it there), web-based access to some/all capabilities, etc. Writing new code takes time and money; keeping servers up 24x7 for thousands of users is surprisingly non-trivial.
- Actual support is eternal. We offer free technical support indefinitely. Depending how you calculate it, it costs $9-20 just to answer the phone. (Sounds crazy, but think about the per-hour wage, the 20 minute average call length, the supervisor, rent, computers, training, etc.) People want to buy once and be done with payments, but they expect us to answer the phone forever. And even though we sold "software for Windows XP", users expect that when they upgrade to Windows 8.1 (or 10, or 11, or 15, etc.) that we'll make sure it works there, and answer the phone if they have an issue or question while installing it. ("You should have built support costs into the price..." I'm sure someone will say... but I don't think our 1995 customers -- many of whom are still with us -- really were willing to pay for the 20 years of support some, but not all, of them were going to use. And we aren't good enough actuaries to have calculated all that correctly!)
Yes, product upgrades are a way we recover some of those support costs, and more, but many of you have correctly pointed out that 'the software is already good enough for my needs.' We're becoming a victim of our own success! Logos is good enough for some users. Some people don't need any more content, and are no longer attracted by a set of content in an upgrade package. But they still want new code, maintained servers, ongoing support, updated mobile apps, etc.
- Nothing is ever done. If you published a book in the 1990's, it was done when it was done. You bought it, and you got what was printed, and nothing more. Today, much of the content we make is actually updated constantly. The Lexham Bible Dictionary is more than three times as large as when we first shipped it a few years ago. (It's the equivalent of around 6,000 paper pages now.) Since we first released it (free), we've never stopped having one or more people assigned to it; our costs continue to accumulate. Even as we slow work, reflecting its near comprehensiveness with regard to the original scope, we plan to keep updating and revising it in response to feedback, new research / scholarly-debate / publications / discoveries. If we'd 'sold' you the LBD in print in the 1990's, our obligation and relationship would end when you bought a copy. You'd live with the typos, and ten years later you'd still own it, with no further expense, but you'd then own a ten-year-old dictionary that didn't reflect any fixes, corrections, or new contributions. If you got the LBD three years ago, you've since gotten triple the content, and will continue to get improvements and new content for years to come. You always have a brand new Bible dictionary. It just costs something to keep it brand new.
(Do you own two paper Bible dictionaries? Did you buy one in the 1990's and buy another later? Sure, you 'own' each, with no rental payment, but to own 'the latest biblical scholarship' you effectively had to keep paying -- buying a new edition, or another dictionary, every few yeas.)
In the same way, valuable data sets like our Lexham Cultural Ontology, will grow indefinitely. You 'bought' it in Logos 6 base packages or upgrades, but we don't want it to stop growing. It represents 80,000 tags in around a dozen core works, but there are 50-100 more works that could be usefully tagged. Each of these is increasingly obscure, but the overall value of the tool increases as the tagging becomes more comprehensive. It would be hard to sell you 'the next 5,000 tags' -- how would you price that? -- and especially the 5,000 after that, but the cost of doing that tagging is real and ongoing.
Visual Copy templates, photos and other media, our catalog of online third-party media resources -- these are all huge web-hosted collections that can usefully grow on a daily basis, some of which (the catalog, for example) need to be edited and maintained frequently.
We could simply price all this into our base packages: charge enough to cover the cost of making them plus anticipated support and update costs for X years, factoring in math / guesses about how many people will buy and then stop using (representing 'extra revenue') and how many will buy and use a lot (representing 'extra expense'), and then make guesses about use lifetime, years left in school / ministry, etc. It would be like becoming an insurance company. :-)
But the end result would probably be to make the base package very expensive, thus costing so many 'light user' sales that the cost to 'heavy users' would go up dramatically, and everyone would be unhappy.
So we're trying to find a better middle ground; our goal is to use subscription products to ensure that people who are heavy users forever are also revenue generators forever. By stretching the revenue out over time -- and having it continue as long as the use does -- we ensure that revenue and expenses are more in sync. (As opposed to getting it all up front and hoping it lasts till the next big thing you can sell ships.)
And when this model works, a wonderful side-effect appears: the cost-of-entry to the platform goes down. Starting with the product doesn't have a large up front cost; it's just a few dollars a month. That invites more participation, more trials, and (hopefully) more users. Which lets us spread our costs over more customers, and ultimately offer more value for less overall cost. That's how you can watch a movie every night of the month (on Netflix, for $8.99) for less than the price of buying a single movie on DVD.
And yes, I know some of you would rather own one movie on DVD and be able to give it to your grandchild, rather than risk that your $8.99 subscription is canceled / the movie removed from your collection. In which case you couldn't give your copy of The Sound of Music to the grandkids. But, if you had bought The Sound of Music on VHS long ago, while you never would have had any rental fees after, you'd now have a low-res, old-media VHS tape your grandkids wouldn't want to watch even if you gave them your old VHS player. :-)
They want to watch it on their phone. In a car. And they don't want to watch old movies anyway. They're waiting for The Sound of Music Rebooted by J.J. Abrams. :-)
Again, we're not trying to take anything away. We actually love getting large hits of revenue around upgrade cycles, and there is a whole set of other problems with slow revenue over time. That's why we're not making a wholesale switch to subscription -- it would completely disrupt our business. Don't worry. We're just preparing to support both models so that we can offer you more for less and address the needs of people who like both models.
We are going to serve both chocolate and vanilla ice cream cones. We don't need to argue over which is better. They're both great, and you can get the one you like!
Comments
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Well said. I use to pay 4.00 for a cd to ship and wait four weeks for it. Now I get it and can read the resource as soon as it goes live.
With enough people subscribing for Logos Now, maybe we can have access to the entire database all 40,000 resources for 20.00 per month. [:D]
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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What happens for the subscriber when the next major release occurs? Will they have to pay full price to own the things that they have been renting for the months in between the releases?
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What do I get for having bought materials since 2007 or is Logos now a consumable (like ice cream)? Do I continue to buy what I do not want to have go away some day and pay extra monthly to get what might go away some day that isn't buyable?
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Why $8.99 tho? that's a very high price for something soo little you offer when compared with Netflix, Amazon, and Google Music. They offer gazillions products and priced appropriately.
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Lynden Williams said:
With enough people subscribing for Logos Now, maybe we can have access to the entire database all 40,000 resources for 20.00 per month.
For access to the entire database of resources, I'd gladly pay as much as $100 per month or perhaps even more.
Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.
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mike said:
Why $8.99 tho? that's a very high price for something soo little you offer when compared with Netflix, Amazon, and Google Music. They offer gazillions products and priced appropriately.
Mike, I don't know how Faithlife came up with this number any better than you do, but I wonder if your comparison is the best one? Those you've cited have tens or hundreds of millions of subscribers. Logos might garner tens of thousands, perhaps a few hundred thousand? Margins can be smaller for folks like Amazon (who is still losing money every quarter) with huge numbers of subscribers.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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I'm honestly shocked that Faithlife/Logos hasn't charged a monthly subscription just for the syncing/cloud backup services we get included with Faithlife/Logos products alone. The fact that included in our base package purchases, you're throwing in backing up and syncing of all of our data files, and even the ability to go and recover deleted files through the web, is something I'd pay monthly for just to have the privilege of doing. Yet for all these years, Faithlife/Logos has still offered this service to us included in our base packages, which of course I've been extremely thankful for.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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I hope you mean what you write, that you are not giving away free sprinkles and extra scoops with vanilla so that us chocolate customers feel left out! (To keep your analogy)Bob Pritchett said:Let me start by saying, I know some of you hate subscription models, and that's okay. We intend to support our existing purchase model for the foreseeable future.
If you don't like subscriptions, it's fine if you just don't subscribe. We'll just keep offering you things you can buy.
Arguing about rent vs. own is like arguing about whether all ice cream cones should be chocolate or vanilla.
Again, we're not trying to take anything away. We actually love getting large hits of revenue around upgrade cycles, and there is a whole set of other problems with slow revenue over time. That's why we're not making a wholesale switch to subscription -- it would completely disrupt our business. Don't worry. We're just preparing to support both models so that we can offer you more for less and address the needs of people who like both models.
We are going to serve both chocolate and vanilla ice cream cones. We don't need to argue over which is better. They're both great, and you can get the one you like!
It seems that you are offering additional features only to rental customers (OT propositional outlines, concordance) that won't be available for us buyers (I really really hope I have got that wrong!!!)
I hope that there will be parity between those features/datasets offered to those who buy! Ps if they're available now (which they are!) for,buyers then I've got lots of money in my bank account just waiting to give to you!
Also the argument (sorry explanation) you make about steady streams of income doesn't really apply to your subscription!
I'd be more than happy to pay monthly any amount if I got to keep the updates etc.
It's the fact that you could loose them if subscription stops, that make the whole thing expensive, insecure and ultimately unworkable for me - and I can't be the only one!
Why don't you release updates on your 'new' six weekly model for buyers too. (I know they don't charge but Mozilla started doing that and a number of other companies have changed to a more frequent update cycle rather than the '90s' model of releasing every couple of years!!)
Thanks for listening!0 -
Bob, please elaborate what "perks" would the Logos Now subscribers get?
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I think this subscription idea is great! I will not be signing up because I have no interest in the features that are being offered for the monthly fee.
However, I think that's it is great that those who value those features will be paying for them. Under the current system we all pay for features we do not want and will never use through higher prices on books. If this new mode of delivery takes off I hope to reap the benefits through lower prices on what I do want.
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Why what you are offering is NOT subscription
1. You don't REALLY believe that subscription is what customers want
You cite Netflix, Office 365 etc as examples that this is what people nowadays want, implying customers will be clamoring / queuing up to subscribe. However, your own marketing betrays the fact that (consciously or sub-consciously) you don't actually believe this - you are having to entice / hook customers in by offering enticements such as early access or exclusivity.
If you really want to run a 'subscription' and 'purchase' model simultaneously, then you should offer exactly the same with both models, and let the customer (rather than the vendor) decide the approach they want to use. Then you will have a fair comparison.
Currently, you cannot use the number of 'subscribers' as proof that a subscription service is what customers want and evidence for future company direction and policy. Think of it the other way, if you offered discounts and exclusive features to 'purchase only' customers - guess what would happen!!
2. Your undertaking to offer both systems (vanilla and chocolate) as two comparable options sounds commendable, but (from what I understand) does not appear to be entirely true
Your post appears to be written to say, 'we are offering another comparable option. It will be good for us, and won't make a difference to you - choose which option you want.' But, when examined, it seems this is more than just a 'like-for-like' choice.
From what I've read from the Logos Now thread, I have gathered that some features (such as OT propositions and discounts and possibly concordance) are only available for 'subscription' customers. I hope this is only 'early access' as opposed to 'exclusivity'.
To quote 'Gao Lu:' from another thread: I am still scratching my head wondering why I can have a feature/dataset now if I rent it for less, but it isn't possible to have it for 2+ years if I buy it for more.
If these are available now (which they appear to be to those who have already subscribed), how long are you planning to withhold them for paying customers?
If not, how can you claim that you are treating all customers fairly/similarly?
3. Although you use the word 'subscription', I think what you are really offering is your true hidden agenda of moving to a 'Software as A Service' model.
This seems to be what your approach to the introduction of 'Logos Now' suggests to me and why what you are offering is not simply a 'subscription' service.
Please make me happy and refute this and the above points.
It's a difficult job to keep all customers happy, but one sure way not to is to treat one group of customers more preferably than others.
Thanks again Bob for taking time out of your busy schedule to post your views and rationale behind your company's direction and approach, it is appreciated - just don't forget that it is the customers that make the business!!
Every blessing!
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Bob Pritchett said:
We are going to serve both chocolate and vanilla ice cream cones. We don't need to argue over which is better. They're both great, and you can get the one you like!
I like this metaphor. People who like both kinds can be satisfied and for others there is the option of chocolate/vanilla swirl. [Y]
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Tom Reynolds said:
I think this subscription idea is great! I will not be signing up because I have no interest in the features that are being offered for the monthly fee.
However, I think that's it is great that those who value those features will be paying for them. Under the current system we all pay for features we do not want and will never use through higher prices on books. If this new mode of delivery takes off I hope to reap the benefits through lower prices on what I do want.
I concur entirely. I will periodically review the possibility of signing up to Logos Now based entirely on the web app. However, for people that do want OT outlines or early previews of Logos 7 features or additional discounts, this seems like a really good idea. Sure, some people will argue that they're paying for Logos 7 twice, once through Logos Now, and again in Logos 7, but if people don't want the features of Logos 7 early, there's no compulsion to sign up to Logos Now. I see this as offering the best of both worlds. And, compared with the cost of other Logos resources, $8.99 per month (even with overseas charges factored in), is really good. It would be easier (and fairer) to overseas customers to charge an annual cost, which we've been told is coming.
(Also, it is a huge improvement on the FL dating website idea, and I think the more balanced responses from users testify to that)
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Bob Pritchett said:
Again, we're not trying to take anything away. We actually love getting large hits of revenue around upgrade cycles, and there is a whole set of other problems with slow revenue over time. That's why we're not making a wholesale switch to subscription -- it would completely disrupt our business. Don't worry. We're just preparing to support both models so that we can offer you more for less and address the needs of people who like both models.
We are going to serve both chocolate and vanilla ice cream cones. We don't need to argue over which is better. They're both great, and you can get the one you like!
Bob,
I have Office 365 and loved it, I love knowing that I will not have to purchase Office 2015 or 2016 when it come out but just keep subscribing to Office 365 and have all the latest and greatest features. Not so with Logos NOW. When the new Logos Chocolate Base Package comes out all the money I have spent on the Vanilla Logos NOW cone melts away and falls to the ground! Unless someone at Logos clarifies what credit, if any, we will get I serious doubt I will continue my subscription past the first month.
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Nathan ... I'd shockingly pay Logos to stop the syncing, forced downloads, forced updates, and the 'doing something' when I have Logos web-access set to off but Logos grabs the cpu when I turn my internet on.
And quite frankly this rental thing is another attempt at forcing .... they know very well what they'll later sell or not. If they're businessmen. It's a game and there's really no harm in playing, remembering the wallet is in the customer's hands.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Mr. Pritchett,
I must say that as a Logos user since version 1, I am chalking this up to another broken or unfulfilled promise. I have bought Portfolio. It was purchased with the understanding that it would be and continue to update to the "latest and greatest" of scholarship and research. Now, because you like subscription revenue, you are throwing loyal customers under the proverbial bus and telling us that our products will no longer update to the latest biblical research unless we now put a subscription on top of it. I do not mind paying for what I use. I will more than likely subscribe, but I do not understand why this is not part of the higher end packages. This kind of information was part of what I was led to believe that I was paying for. I understand charging for the "extra" without the books/resources in the smaller base packages, but this is the very kind of updates that should be part of the Diamond, Portfolio, and Collector base packages. I know for myself... I am a pretty "predictable revenue." I would imagine that the other large base package purchasers are as well. I subscribe to Proclaim as well. I feel like Logos is breaking yet another promise to me.
Now that I have vented, will Logos Now finally provide a usable prayer list and personal book sync on mobile devices?
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What promise are you referring to? I am not aware of a promise that you would continue to get new features, did I miss something?Jeffrey S. Robison said:Mr. Pritchett,
I must say that as a Logos user since version 1, I am chalking this up to another broken or unfulfilled promise. I have bought Portfolio. It was purchased with the understanding that it would be and continue to update to the "latest and greatest" of scholarship and research. Now, because you like subscription revenue, you are throwing loyal customers under the proverbial bus and telling us that our products will no longer update to the latest biblical research unless we now put a subscription on top of it. I do not mind paying for what I use. I will more than likely subscribe, but I do not understand why this is not part of the higher end packages. This kind of information was part of what I was led to believe that I was paying for. I understand charging for the "extra" without the books/resources in the smaller base packages, but this is the very kind of updates that should be part of the Diamond, Portfolio, and Collector base packages. I know for myself... I am a pretty "predictable revenue." I would imagine that the other large base package purchasers are as well. I subscribe to Proclaim as well. I feel like Logos is breaking yet another promise to me.
Now that I have vented, will Logos Now finally provide a usable prayer list and personal book sync on mobile devices?
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Jeffry,
The only "promise" that was made is that core features and data sets that you previously purchased would be updated. Logos NOW does not change this. All the features and data sets in Logos NOW are new and may or may not be a part of Logos 7. When Logos 7 comes out you will have the opportunity to purchase new base packages or just wait a few months and get a free upgrade of the core engine and all the previous data sets and features you had purchased previously.
What makes Logos NOW a little iffy for some of will be paying Logos to develop new data sets and features that they will have to pay for again when Logos 7 comes out. All those who subscribe are basically giving everyone who does not subscribe a free ride when Logos 7 comes out. It is just like the pre-pub system. Those who purchase a pre-pub at 40% off are under riding all those who get the every same books in a future base package at 90% off. Only in this case it is worse because dynamic pricing will not be in effect as no one will actually "own" any of the features and data sets they have been paying $8.99 per month for.
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I just hope that Logos Now will not follow the pattern observed with resources , they are often first bundled during prepub at a discount, then kept in a bundle for a long time, before finally being sold individually a little or no discount. The prepub system of today is far less attractive that what it was a decade or so ago.
The idea behind the “new” prepub system appears to be to force those who want a particular book upon release to buy the bundle (which might include many books that are not wanted and would have not been bought otherwise).
This has forced me to either buy a bundle when most of the books are (somewhat) wanted or wait until sales to buy individual books from the bundles. This also makes buying individual books that were in a bundle often unattractive since many are offered at full MRSP. Of course, the bundle system does not eliminate the option of purchase books when the bundle is broken but the prices are far from attractive and are often meant to lead you to buy bundles and even do so in the first few days of offering before the price is artificially increased. As a result, instead of purchasing resources only in Logos format like I decided to at the beginning, I find myself purchasing them in a least four platforms, often going with the one offering the best deal and the quickly access to the resource.
The same principle used for resources might (unfortunately) be implemented with Logos Now making the subscription option the only attractive one by not only delaying access to features and datasets but also by adopting a price structure that while not eliminating the Upgrade to Logos 7 option, makes it nevertheless prohibitively expensive to wait for the next major release.
To use Bob’s analogy, yes vanilla ice-cream and chocolate ice-cream might still be both offered but if you offer vanilla ice-cream every day of the week at $2 while offering chocolate ice-cream only on Sunday and at $4, while you could still claim to offer both flavors, you are nevertheless sending a clear message that vanilla ice-cream is the way to go.
As such, the promise that “we're not trying to take anything away” might not be the whole story, especially since the subscription model (which should be more profitable for Logos) will in essence compete with the wait-for-the-next-upgrade model. It would not be good to have a standard and a premium tracks arranged in such a way that standard customer and strongly "encouraged" to go premium (something very common when subscription models are involved)
I guess we will have to wait for either an official announcement or the release of Logos 7 to find out but some trends are difficult to ignore.
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Dear Bob,
I understand why you're going this direction and appreciate the explanation.
Here's an idea that comes from my industry: offer heavy-investors / regular-buyers some type of credit to Logos Now. On Wall Street, we'll give our customers all sorts of products and services that they ask for if they send us a lot of shares to trade. I can't say what the particulars should look like--that's up to you--but can you offer loyalty value to the customers who have supported you the most?
These are my couple of ideas:
- If you spend $X per month (perhaps base on a 3 or 6 month rolling average), you get Logos Now complementary or at a steep discount.
- You offer a 2 year subscription to books.logos.com with Gold and higher. Offer 2 years of Logos Now with Gold and higher (or whatever level makes sense)
I buy tubs of vanilla ice cream every month. May I please have a complementary scoop of chocolate along with that?
-Bill
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The propositional outlines has a price 40 dollars. Should I understand that at some point it will become available as a separate item? I would be happy to pay it now and get it gradually as updates.
The subscription is not attractive to me for 2 reasons: I don't need the other items in the subscription. Secondly I think there are some additional costs with the overseas payments.
One more thing: will the Hebrew propositional outlines work with the Hebrew bibles? The examples show English Bibles only.
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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Veli Voipio said:
One more thing: will the Hebrew propositional outlines work with the Hebrew bibles? The examples show English Bibles only.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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I don't understand what one gets for the subscription price. Is it just features within the software, as well as possibly some Lexham resources, or are we talking about other resources? Surely one can't now, or ever get access to the whole Logos catalog for $8.99 a month.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Thanks Lynden, looks good!
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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Joseph Turner said:
I don't understand what one gets for the subscription price. Is it just features within the software, as well as possibly some Lexham resources, or are we talking about other resources?
Phil explains what we get in the current release at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/103245/713695.aspx#713695 (reproduced below)
What is Logos Now?
- It’s a subscription-based service.
- It’s content and tools for serious Bible study.
- It builds on top of Logos 6.
- It’s continually growing and getting regular updates.
- It’s access to the future of Logos Bible Software, today.
- It's a membership program.
What do you get with Logos Now?
- A growing library of data, media, and interactive content.
- Early access to new features and tools.
- Access to the beta of the new Logos web app.
- Special membership benefits such as exclusive offers, special discounts, and more.
What does the first release include?
- Old Testament Propositional Bible Outlines (dataset)
- Greek Grammatical Constructions (dataset)
- Commandments of the Law (interactive)
- Visual Copy Templates (media)
- Author Slide Templates (media)
- Logos Stock Images, vol. 2 (media)
- Media Browser (tool)
- Concordance (tool)
- Access to the beta of the Logos web app
- Membership benefits (e.g., exclusive offers, special discounts)
We'll continue to add more value to it over time. More details forthcoming.
Joseph Turner said:Surely one can't now, or ever get access to the whole Logos catalog for $8.99 a month.
No - that isn't what this is about.
From the FAQ page at https://www.logos.com/faq#LogosNow
Do I need to own a Logos 6 base package to useLogos Now?
Logos 6 Feature Crossgrade, Gold, or higher will provide an optimal experience with Logos Now.
Get Logos 6 Feature Crossgrade
I already own a base package. Why Logos Now?
Think of Logos Now as an add-on to your Logos 6 base package. A Logos 6 base package is still the best way to build a library of resources you own. Logos Now provides additional value to your library with the latest content, features, datasets, interactives, and media.
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I completely understand Bob's points in his post as to his reasoning. I was involved in a software company back in the day and we sold a turnkey product to associations where as our competitors sold a full-service product suite that generated recurring revenue. It eventually became apparent that we could only survive by selling new systems on a regular basis or try to pick up customers that generated recurring revenue. We chose to do both. And I saw the impact of that when you had to let staff go if a deal fell through and upset the immediate revenue stream. So I get that.
I sense what the ongoing concern is that one has to be a subscriber in order to gain the benefits of the latest and greatest features that are in the pipeline. And it doesn't seem to be communicated well enough to make one comfortable that these features would be migrated into the next product release so that one could benefit later with these features. So for example I might be real interested in the new Concordance tool. Is there any sense of that appearing in any of the upgrades to version 6 or coming in version 7? Or never?
I think it might be helpful to make some sort of commitment that indeed feature x or feature z will be there eventually for one to purchase as part of the upgrade, say to version 7. But I know that software companies don't want to tip their hands as to what feature is coming next.
I prefer to own my stuff rather than rent, but I understand the direction that is occurring with delivery of media and products. I like that we currently have the option of both but I don't have a warm and fuzzy feeling that it will always be that way. I could see where someday the desktop version becomes static and that the cloud based application will be the app getting attention going forward. And I could see someday that a subscription model could be applied to resources. Not sure how what one owns would be taken into account. Amazon already has something like this started with their Kindle Unlimited where for $9.99 a month you get access to a library of about 700,000 Kindle books. Cancel and your access to them is gone.
I am tempted to try Logos Now but I think I will wait and see what feedback there is and how it grows in features and functionality.
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I still hesitate. This reminds me when 30 years ago in Ethiopia if I wanted to buy Coke I had to buy several tomatoes, too.
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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James Hudson said:
From what I've read from the Logos Now thread, I have gathered that some features (such as OT propositions and discounts and possibly concordance) are only available for 'subscription' customers. I hope this is only 'early access' as opposed to 'exclusivity'.
That is my understanding: the subscription gets you early access. Or you can forgo the monthly cost and early use and wait till Logos 7
James Hudson said:If not, how can you claim that you are treating all customers fairly/similarly?
new features that we'd have to wait for are not available earlier. We all have the choice to pay for Logos Now to get them earlier, rather then wait 2-3 years and pay for it all at once.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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James Hudson said:
From what I've read from the Logos Now thread, I have gathered that some features (such as OT propositions and discounts and possibly concordance) are only available for 'subscription' customers. I hope this is only 'early access' as opposed to 'exclusivity'.
That is my understanding: the subscription gets you early access. Or you can forgo the monthly cost and early use and wait till Logos 7
James Hudson said:If not, how can you claim that you are treating all customers fairly/similarly?
new features that we'd have to wait for are not available earlier. We all have the choice to pay for Logos Now to get them earlier, rather then wait 2-3 years and pay for it all at once.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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sorry for the double post. something funky happened with my browser. I wasn't even finished with my reply . . .
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Friedrich said:
new features that we'd have to wait for are not available earlier. We all have the choice to pay for Logos Now to get them earlier, rather then wait 2-3 years and pay for it all at once.
So, technically, they ARE available earlier (ie they have been coded and are currently working with datasets - since they ARE available to subscribers).
Who made the decision that we have to wait 2-3 years? - that is a deliberate choice of Logos. They could release tomorrow if they wanted - they are deliberately withholding to hook subscribers in. So my contention remains - they are not treating customers as fairly as Bob's OP implies.
PS Thanks for replying and no problem about the double post!
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John Fugh, Jr. said:
What happens for the subscriber when the next major release occurs?
We don't even know yet, but in general we try very hard to avoid making you pay twice for the same thing. Of course prices change constantly (as we generally reduce the price of content over time), so it's hard to promise one-to-one credits (otherwise dynamic pricing might require cash refunds -- not a sustainable business model!) but we don't know yet. We don't even know yet all the things that will be in Logos Now before Logos 7 ships.
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SHotchkiss said:
What do I get for having bought materials since 2007 or is Logos now a consumable (like ice cream)?
You always get what you bought. (And with Logos, usually more at some point in the future.)
What do you get from Netflix (or Warner Bros.) in exchange for your expensively accumulated VHS (or DVD) library? Nothing. We'll try to do better, but the future is always going to be different than the past, and sometimes the paradigms aren't perfectly compatible. We'll continue -- as we have for 23 years -- to try and do right by all our users.
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mike said:
Bob, please elaborate what "perks" would the Logos Now subscribers get?
We're still figuring this out. But it gets to the point that some parts of Logos Now may be things you can't 'buy' because they aren't 'buyable.' (Or at least not easily.) For example, Logos Now may include access to a human search consultant, who will on-demand formulate a specific query for you. That's a service, not a product -- you get access to this service if you subscribe, you don't if you don't. There's no way to buy this as part of Logos 7.
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mike said:
Why $8.99 tho? that's a very high price for something soo little
You're looking at the first month's offering in Logos Now. If it's not worth $8.99 /mo to you, you can wait. But we plan to add value to Logos Now every six weeks; by the time Logos 7 ships there will be a lot more value in Logos Now.
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James Hudson said:
1. You don't REALLY believe that subscription is what customers want
Actually, I do. You just haven't seen everything we're planning yet -- we're talking about 'Day 1' of a multi-month plan. :-)
James Hudson said:I hope this is only 'early access' as opposed to 'exclusivity'.
For data sets and features, yes, it's early access. But 'early access' isn't the whole (or even primary) message -- again, we're just getting started. Some things may be exclusive, but for good reasons, like my (hypothetical) example of access to a human search consultant who helps you formulate a specific complex query.
James Hudson said:I think what you are really offering is your true hidden agenda of moving to a 'Software as A Service' model.
I think what you are really doing is accusing me of lying, and that just seems rude. We don't have a hidden agenda. My post explains all the financial and business reasoning, and talks about past difficulties with rent and payroll. Is that the communication of a company with a 'hidden agenda'? We are completely transparent. I'll try again to say it with nothing hidden:
- We love selling things and getting paid all at once. Many people also buy and incur very little follow-on costs. We make money and we are all happy.
- Some people buy once and are active users who incur on-going costs for support, maintenance, server hosting, and more. They don't need 'more books' and so they don't buy upgrades because they "already have what I need, if you'll just do a free update of the mobile app and support Windows 11." We're glad these people are enthusiastic Bible students, but these people make us less money, and we'd love to find a way to incentivize (not require) them to pay us $8.99 / month. We intend to make Logos Now such a compelling offer that you voluntarily subscribe because it's a such a good deal, even if you hate subscriptions. We plan to bribe you with goodness and value. (Is that the 'hidden agenda' you feared? At least it's a benevolent, generous one.)
- Other people want to rent everything, and prefer low-cost on-demand access to large libraries of material that they can turn off/on at their discretion in order to manage cash or get access to more than they'd like. These are Netflix / Spotify / Amazon Prime / Uber users and we plan to serve them also, because they'll help us generate more revenue.
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Denise said:
And quite frankly this rental thing is another attempt at forcing .... they know very well what they'll later sell or not.
I am flattered that you think us clairvoyant, :-), but sadly we don't know the future. We weren't sure what would finally be in Logos 6 till just a few months before release (weeks, for some parts), and certainly aren't sure what will be in Logos Now six months from now, let alone in Logos 7 whenever it ships.
It's a pretty good guess that we'll offer for sale and outright purchase anything that's a complete, definable data set or resource. It's unlikely we'll offer for sale something that's a service, or a fluid database that's frequently maintained and updated. If we can call it 'done' and calculate its final cost, then we can price and sell it. If it's something that will never be done (curating online media at ever-changing third-party sites and tagging it with Preaching Themes?) then we'll likely only offer it by subscription. Likewise for something that's fundamentally a service, like a human-backed feature.
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James Hudson said:
Who made the decision that we have to wait 2-3 years?
James Hudson said:They could release tomorrow if they wanted - they are deliberately withholding to hook subscribers in.
Yes, like almost every package software company ever, we bundle improvements together into major releases. This is true of cars, too -- they didn't ship the new stereo the week they created it, they waited till the next model year and bundled it with engine improvements, style changes, and new paint colors.
It helps motivate upgrades, and it is simply more efficient than shipping (and trying to price and sell) tiny upgrades every week. We had complaints when Logos 6 was only two years after Logos 5 that it was 'too soon.' People don't like the frequency of free bug-fix downloads; I imagine many users would be even unhappier if we tried to sell them a minor new feature every six weeks, and the pricing / combinations / complexity would be mind-boggling.
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Bob Pritchett said:
We intend to make Logos Now such a compelling offer that you voluntarily subscribe because it's a such a good deal, even if you hate subscriptions.
That's a great goal and shows your commitment to making Logos Now even more appealing in the months ahead.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Bob Pritchett said:
I think what you are really doing is accusing me of lying, and that just seems rude.
I apologise for coming across that way. Passions run high when things I care passionately about (and spend most of my time and nearly all of my money on) appear to change. I am just anxiously concerned about what I read in other posts about features not being available for customers who like to pay you money up front. This didn't agree with the feeling I go when I read your post which seemed (in my understanding) to say that customers would be treated equally, the only difference being how you paid. The greedy side of my nature doesn't want to miss out but I am even more concerned that I get to keep what I buy without having to pay ad infinitum to keep them. Thank you for reassuring me that these features are only 'early access' (and yes I've noted what you said about having extremely good reasons if they are exclusive)
Bob Pritchett said:We intend to make Logos Now such a compelling offer that you voluntarily subscribe because it's a such a good deal, even if you hate subscriptions.
Indeed I did understand correctly at first. However, again, I hope the 'compelling' nature of the service doesn't mean that purchase up-front customers miss out on features (I suppose that is the 'hidden agenda' I fear, and where I think you may not be treating all customer types equally and fairly.)
Regarding the Software as a service model, I think it will be interesting in 3-5 years to look back at this thread, comparing vision, aims etc then and now. I hope then to be using Logos from my speech activated holographic wrist wearable smart device(but still paying for the software!!)
Bob Pritchett said:Other people want to rent everything,
That MAY be the case, but you won't be able to determine that to be the case for Bible Software by your approach since, in your own words, "we plan to bribe you...even if you hate subscriptions" ! I understand your need to generate revenue - but like I have said in other posts, I'd pay weekly (if necessary) for updates, features etc IF I got to keep them!! Why stick to the 1990s model of a bi-annual release cycle? Change this too!
Finally, thank you for taking time to reply and clarifying a few things. I always appreciate your openness, your comments about what you are thinking and the direction you are leading the company.
Again please accept my humble apologies for coming across rude.
Yours in His Service,
James
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Bob Pritchett said:
I imagine many users would be even unhappier if we tried to sell them a minor new feature every six weeks,
I for one would be happier to have cutting edge features every 6 weeks! [:D]
I'm sure you've already considered it and discussed the merits and demerits of this idea: What about a pre-pub approach for new features?
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Bob ... I'll stay with the theory you're a businessman. And after you haven't picked all the money left on the table, you'll be selling your product. 'Planning'.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I'll just say again, in all the euphoria about new features, datasets, etc., - I wish there was even a closely similar obsession with making existing Logos 6 EASIER and FRIENDLIER for us to use. There are SO MANY features that just have little UI discrepancies that make it cumbersome - things that don't persist, wasted keystrokes and mouse clicks, actions that do different things in different parts of the program, incomplete version 1 implementations (readily admitted by Faithlife by the way, which is fine except...on to the next list of new features), delays (I have about the fastest Windows laptop available and just typing Luke 4.1 to bring up ESV from the command box takes about 7 seconds), freezes, UI approaches that were great when number of resources was small now that they are huge it's a very inappropriate implementation, the list goes on and on...
I really think a UI/workflow guru who did a comprehensive audit of this software would recommend so many things that would make us much more productive. Why does this thought get so little traction, it's never talked about, other than in response to complaints....send us to User Voice....Does anyone at Faithlife use Logos or Verbum for real study/research work about 6 hours a day? Don't they see all this?
It's just seems so marketing driven, obsession with adding to the list of features....how many use those new features? Spme posts in this very thread ake me wonder. I know, making existing features much easier to use is not sexy.
Please focus on making us more productive with what we already have, when we move to all these fast incremental releases!
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Don Awalt said:
Please focus on making us more productive
We've been working on this for months now, and you should see some significant improvements in 6.2, with more to follow in 6.3.
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Bob Pritchett said:Don Awalt said:
Please focus on making us more productive
We've been working on this for months now, and you should see some significant improvements in 6.2, with more to follow in 6.3.
Thank you. I really appreciate that.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Bob Pritchett said:Don Awalt said:
Please focus on making us more productive
We've been working on this for months now, and you should see some significant improvements in 6.2, with more to follow in 6.3.
That will be great! Thanks for addressing this.
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All this discussion about Logos 7... Maybe we should ask if there will be a Logos 7.
Hey Faithlife, Will there be a Logos 7?
Or is the direction to move toward a subscription based product that renders my desktop version obsolete and unsupported.
I remember the years of no Mac support or improvement waiting on what became Logos 4. Now I sit curious about the direction of a company that I have more than $17k of resources investment and how this move is going to effect my ability to interact with those resources.
I called customer service and they would not even say that there would be a Logos 7. Leads me to believe that there is about to be seismic shift in the whole business model of Faithlife and how the customers (soon to be "subscribers") will interface with the products. I would not be surprised if the desktop and tools as we know them, at least how we pay for them is about to change.
I find it really hard to believe that the implementation of this subscription service is occurring without a clear "yes" or "no" on whether there will be a Logos 7 or 8 or... without knowing what the impact will be on the business model other than that it will be another revenue stream.
This would be a fundamental change to how we as customers have understood the company's commitment to us. I am not saying that anyone is being untruthful or misleading... I just do not believe that Faithlife is being forthright about the company's vision and direction.
I am not opposed to a subscription service, I just want to know how it will effect me as a customer in the future and I believe that a multi-million dollar company already has that in the prospectus before they roll out such a service.
What is the future vision and direction of Faithlife?
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David Taylor Jr said:
What promise are you referring to? I am not aware of a promise that you would continue to get new features, did I miss something?Jeffrey S. Robison said:Mr. Pritchett,
I must say that as a Logos user since version 1, I am chalking this up to another broken or unfulfilled promise. I have bought Portfolio. It was purchased with the understanding that it would be and continue to update to the "latest and greatest" of scholarship and research. Now, because you like subscription revenue, you are throwing loyal customers under the proverbial bus and telling us that our products will no longer update to the latest biblical research unless we now put a subscription on top of it. I do not mind paying for what I use. I will more than likely subscribe, but I do not understand why this is not part of the higher end packages. This kind of information was part of what I was led to believe that I was paying for. I understand charging for the "extra" without the books/resources in the smaller base packages, but this is the very kind of updates that should be part of the Diamond, Portfolio, and Collector base packages. I know for myself... I am a pretty "predictable revenue." I would imagine that the other large base package purchasers are as well. I subscribe to Proclaim as well. I feel like Logos is breaking yet another promise to me.
Now that I have vented, will Logos Now finally provide a usable prayer list and personal book sync on mobile devices?
When I first bought into Logos (Libronix) base packages, it was sold to me saying that if resources were added to that package in the future that I would receive them free of charge... probably a bad salesman, but still a promise to a customer.
After the announcement of the Mac version, I bought a large base package on that promise of a date... that took years... and then more years to run "natively" on my machine.
I bought Portfolio, upgraded the core engine, package downgraded to Diamond, Bought Portfolio for 5 in July of 2014 and then had to pay about $1200 to upgrade Portfolio 5 to Portfolio 6 to the "latest and greatest" tools in October of 2014. Six months later and it is another $8.99 a month to keep up. I am working on a Th.D. in systematic theology so I like tools.
And just so you know, I know what was said to me and explained to me as I have invested thousands into Logos, Libronix, Logos, Faithlife. I have accepted apologies and continued as a really good customer.
Once bitten, twice shy.
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Jeffrey S. Robison said:
Once bitten, twice shy.
A good practice. Luckily despite my normal bad luck, I've not had your string of luck with Logos since the long delayed "Catholic edition" of Logos 2 ... which has given me time to forgive, laugh, and not forget.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Jeffrey S. Robison said:
Hey Faithlife, Will there be a Logos 7?
I think we can all expect a Logos 7. Not at all sure about a Logos 10. But by then computing, the internet, and lots more may have changed so much most of us won't care.
Since Faithlife wants to stay in business for the long term and wants to grow its business by a lot, whatever it does it will need to do in stages over time. It can't abandon what will be for the foreseeable future its largest user segment and probably biggest source of income: people like us.
However, if Faithlife doesn't change someone else will put them out of business with a truly revolutionary or more desirable product (Polaroid and Kodak come to mind). That would be far worse than not having a Logos 8, 9, or 10 in my mind.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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