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This post has 147 Replies | 16 Followers

Posts 1129
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 9 2015 12:15 PM

Bob Pritchett:

...we plan to offer a 'supplemental' subscription product called Logos Now with such a compelling value proposition that even people who prefer ownership models subscribe to at least this. 

Hope you find this helpful feedback, at this moment I am not seeing the "compelling value". While it is fun to use some of the Logos 7 features early, at the 90% discount that Logos base packages go for it is hard to justify spending $8.99 per month. The value of the books I desire to own in the base packages always exceeds the upgrade price, so in a sense if I wait 18 or so months I will get all the data sets and add-on for free! The $8.99 value has to be found in the value of the media, services and discounts, not in the value of getting to use Logos 7 features early. Does this make sense?

Posts 1129
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 9 2015 12:21 PM

A little more feedback. The value of using Logos 7 feature early is worth about $2 per month to me. I would be willing to pay that with not expectations of future upgrade discounts. Any more than that I will wait. There are a lot of Logos 6 features I have not even learned to use fully yet! Smile

So everything else must me worth about $6.99 to me.

Posts 205
Jeffrey S. Robison | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 9 2015 4:19 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Jeffrey S. Robison:
I called customer service and they would not even say that there would be a Logos 7.

We have very few policies as a company, but one is "don't say anything about a product that hasn't shipped!" 

So our CS agent was just following this policy; there's no need to try and 'read the tea leaves.' There's no big conspiracy or master plan that we all know internally and are keeping from you. Just a bunch of people doing our work every day, making plans, changing plans, listening to customers, coming up with ideas, etc. And as 'regular people', we have no more future-predicting abilities than you. :-)

If you walked into a Ford dealership and asked "With the 2017 model have Apple CarPlay integration? Or a V-8 option?" and they said "I can't promise that", it likely doesn't reflect their plans in any way. It reflects that the person on the sales floor hasn't been told, and that the person who IS planning on CarPlay integration may change their mind before then based on user adoption or market forces or budget, and the V-8 decision may be made two months before tooling starts based on gas prices that year.

Is there going to be a Logos 7? I think so. (And even saying that scares me... please don't come back and pummel me later if something changes.) It follow pretty naturally on Logos 3, 4, 5, and 6. It makes sense. But hey, maybe the Apple Watch changes the world and we all stop using laptops and just talk into our wrists while receiving text via corneal implants....

Jeffrey S. Robison:
I find it really hard to believe that the implementation of this subscription service is occurring without a clear "yes" or "no" on whether there will be a Logos 7 or 8 or...

Why do you find this hard to believe? I think it's actually quite reasonable that A) companies try things, and B) tend not to announce future product plans far in advance (for risk of warning competitors, deferring present sales, making promises they end up not keeping, and simply not knowing the future).

Jeffrey S. Robison:
What is the future vision and direction of Faithlife?

Again, I feel like we're as clear as we possibly can be about this, and that I've been completely transparent in this thread and others. (Calling the front-line customer service agent and demanding to know if they can promise an unannounced product release two (?) years in the future isn't really fair, and when they can't, shouldn't count against transparency.)

We plan to support our existing ownership model indefinitely while offering new subscription models for people who prefer them, and we plan to offer a 'supplemental' subscription product called Logos Now with such a compelling value proposition that even people who prefer ownership models subscribe to at least this. 

I'm sorry that part of the transparency is saying "we think" and "we plan", not "we promise", but if I was confidently asserting that I could tell you how technology products / business-models / platforms / trends were going to be a few years from now, you'd have other reasons to think poorly of us. :-)

Mr. Pritchett,

Thank you for your response.

I am not complaining, I am not skeptical about being able to access the resources already purchased. I have always been very supportive and an early adopter of new technology, especially those that enhance ministry. Let me say this very clearly - "I love me some Logos Bible Software." I am just asking questions. I am voicing my concerns about future interactions based on past experiences. I believe that is a fair practice.

I have continued to "voice" my support of what is now Faithlife by buying more product. I will subscribe to Logos Now... period. I am not "thinking poorly" of you. I personally know how hard it is to develop a product, support a product, and field questions about what will be added (or taken away) in the future. The CS agent said to me, "I don't even know if there will be a Logos 7" in context to the launch of a subscription plan. That is completely different than saying the company policy is to not discuss products that haven't shipped. The discussion about a product that has not shipped was already happening here. The questions about the what the features of and even if there will be Logos as we know were raised in this thread, which precipitated my call and subsequent posts.

I have faith in your leadership of Faithlife and I am benefiting daily from the quality of the scholars and programmers you have hired. I hope that you do not take my questions or concerns as insulting. Logos is a huge part of my ministry and school workflows, so naturally I am interested in its future. I also know that you and the other Faithlife employees are earning a living for your families, so I do not mind paying for what I use.

A suggestion that I have in regard to the Logos Now subscription would be to bundle the Proclaim Pro Media (I already subscribe to that) along with it. You may gain more subscribers to Logos Now and to the Proclaim service. Presentations seem to be a direction that Logos Now is already leaning.

I am sure that Faithlife will deliver a completely unique, relevant, and useful ministry tool. You always have. Please accept my apologies if I upset or insulted you. That was never my intention.

Kindest regards,

Jeff

Posts 205
Jeffrey S. Robison | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 9 2015 4:53 PM

I subscribed...

Posts 1691
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 9 2015 6:15 PM

Jeffrey S. Robison:
I am just asking questions.

Thanks for subscribing; I believe you will find it a good investment. If not, let me know.

I realize I'm starting to come across a little annoyed... my apologies. I realize that you (and many others) have a significant investment in our products (for which I am very grateful!) and you reasonably want assurances that your investment is wise and safe.

I tend to avoid the crystal clear statements about the future that users crave, because I place a high-value on speaking the truth, and the truth is that there is very little we can say with certainty about the future without using a lot of hedging words. For example, it's hard for me to assure you that the sun will rise tomorrow without hedging: "Lord-willing, the sun will rise tomorrow."

:-)

I hope it's some comfort, at least, that we've exhibited 'pro-customer' behavior for 20+ years, and that we'd rather repeatedly scare you than say something that might not be true. (Which is itself a pattern based on experience... every promise we ever did make, or even imply, has been held against us, even when the technology moved on. We just stopped shipping DVD-ROM's with Logos 6, and I'm sure there's someone who believes we promised -- back when we first offered downloads -- that they'd be able to get and keep things on physical media forever. But who even buys a machine that accepts DVD-ROM's today? And five years from now even USB drives may be unsupported by new machines; new Macs barely have any ports / slots / openings(!) at all. I'm dreading that phone call... :-) )

Jeffrey S. Robison:
The CS agent said to me, "I don't even know if there will be a Logos 7" in context to the launch of a subscription plan. That is completely different than saying the company policy is to not discuss products that haven't shipped.

I see how you can read it that way, but I think the truth is even simpler: The agent simply doesn't know. We don't tell agents our policy is not to comment on future plans; we don't even tell them future plans! We train the agents on things that are shipping now. The agents (~25 of 440 employees) are hired and trained in within CS, and the training is on shipping products (or finished products shipping within the next couple weeks). So the agent literally doesn't know. Not, "I don't imagine we'd do a Logos 7..." but more like "I have no idea what you're talking about, because it's never been discussed in my presence, and I heard about this subscription thing just like you and am equally curious and bereft of information on its future implications." :-)

And the people doing strategic planning? They have intentions / ideas / feelings, and even (sometimes) plans, but with two years between typical releases, and little actual market feedback (yet) on our first subscription offerings, they don't know either.

I'm sorry that's so uncertain -- but it's the truth, and I'd rather tell you the truth (and take the lumps) than tell you something that's wrong. Which would be just about anything I say about the future. Because, it's in the future. :-)

Posts 2093
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 9 2015 7:00 PM

Bob, I appreciate your feedback throughout this thread.

By nature I am conservative, protective, defensive, skeptical, doubting, something like this: Hmm  Berean to the bone. I want to be a good steward of my finances and want to protect my investment in Logos. I also know that nothing in life is without risk. No insurance can prevent disaster.  What if Bob builds something great, takes all the money, runs and dumps all of us users? What if Bob makes a terrible business decision and Logos goes bump in the night and is no more? What if I subscribe and it's a terrible mistake and I lose $100 of value?  What if....

I have not always liked some details of how Logos does business (especially some aspects that feel like small-town, yellow plaid pants, used-car salesman marketing measures).  I sure wish I could get every single Logos resource and tool now and in the future for free.  I don't have extra money to throw around, but the truth is....

Logos has changed my life by far for the better.  I  love how it has opened up the Bible and my thinking, my knowledge, and provided access and research ability to study the Bible. Logos has been trustworthy over the years.  I do trust Bob, not to be perfect, but to genuinely do his best to provide a quality product, to adapt the product so that my investment is usable and improved in the future.   If I am wrong, I would never regret my investment even if I totally lost Logos today.  

Thanks again, Bob for your feedback.  What you said has put my concerns at ease.  

     

Posts 35
Triskal | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 1:34 AM

Veli Voipio:

I still hesitate. This reminds me when 30 years ago in Ethiopia if I wanted to buy Coke I had to buy several tomatoes, too. 

Currently living in a developing country, this made me laugh.  Thanks for the humor...

Posts 2093
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 4:22 AM

Triskal:

Veli Voipio:

I still hesitate. This reminds me when 30 years ago in Ethiopia if I wanted to buy Coke I had to buy several tomatoes, too. 

Currently living in a developing country, this made me laugh.  Thanks for the humor...

Me too.  My wife and I had to stop and laugh at that a bit.  

Posts 1998
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 4:37 AM

Bob Pritchett:
I realize I'm starting to come across a little annoyed... my apologies.

Bob, I don't think the problem is necessarily with Logos Now, as it sounds like it will probably work pretty well for many.  I think the problem is the way you guys roll out new ideas and software.  The Logos 6 release should be the standard for all releases as far as I'm concerned.  No one knew that there was going to be a release until it happened (a select few did of course), and you guys released multiple pages of "new feature: _______" posts that explained in detail how everything worked.  Logos employees noted many times that this was to make sure everyone knew as much information as possible on the front end in order not to repeat the past.  For just about everything else you guys kind of stumble in, and then the uncertainty causes all of this frustration.  Information comes slowly, and many details aren't even decided yet.  If the information about Logos Now had been spelled out in great detail on the front end (with complete details already ironed out), then you wouldn't have to be here answering all of these questions.  I appreciated the fact that you are willing to answer questions, but you really shouldn't have to in this case.  

I love Logos Bible Software, and you guys have done so many things right.  I just think you get excited and put the cart before the horse sometimes.  I also think that Logos users are passionate and quick to jump, but that is due to the amount of money that users have invested in the product.

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 14
Tesfaye Haile | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 5:00 AM

I personally fully agree to this rational. Logos continued existence can only be insured if there is a revenue that helps the company to support its employees and the refurbish and maintain its logistics.

Tesfaye Haile

Posts 2947
Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 5:07 AM

Tesfaye Haile:

I personally fully agree to this rational. Logs continued existence can only be insured if there is a revenue that helps the company to support its employees and the refurbish and maintain its logistics.

Tesfaye Haile

I agree with you 100% Brother Tesfaye.

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 2093
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 6:38 AM

Many years ago when I was a school teacher, I found in my suggestion can one day a note that said:  "We are behind you 98%"  

Well, that was nice, but what about the other 2%?

Posts 27817
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 6:49 AM

Now THAT is funny. Big Smile

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 1602
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 7:53 AM

I wanted to say that all the Q&A has been very helpful to me in thinking through everything Now.  I have decided to subscribe to the Verbum flavor of this service in light of the datasets and media primarily, not so much as for the tools although who knows.  As has been mentioned by others, I too tend to see more value in resources that I own, but I am perceiving some benefit here also in that there is mention of special offers for Now subscribers.  I may be reading too much into it, but my hope would be some discounts down the road on resources that I would own.

Thanks for all the discussion.  Truly.

Smile

Posts 3065
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 8:00 AM

Steve:

I wanted to say that all the Q&A has been very helpful to me in thinking through everything Now.  I have decided to subscribe to the Verbum flavor of this service in light of the datasets and media primarily, not so much as for the tools although who knows.  As has been mentioned by others, I too tend to see more value in resources that I own, but I am perceiving some benefit here also in that there is mention of special offers for Now subscribers.  I may be reading too much into it, but my hope would be some discounts down the road on resources that I would own.

Thanks for all the discussion.  Truly.

Smile

Well said! 

Teacher, Ministry Leader, Student, Author, Husband

How to upload logs

Visit My Site: Reformed Truths

Posts 2725
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 3:02 PM

Here's another perspective that I've not really read here. Logos Now seems like charging for the right to be a beta tester of a new feature that may or may not come in Logos 7.

I signed up for one thing. Access to the web app. The other stuff is of little value to me.

Interestingly, another Bible software company launched a free publicly available online site that is not as feature filled as the Logos web app promises to e but is more feature filled that the Logos web app is today. they also offer a beta version of this site for nothing more.

I'll likely keep my subscription for a little while, but like Proclaim, the web app will need to improve vastly in the next couple of months or will cancel soon like I did with Proclaim.

Posts 22115
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 3:07 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:
Here's another perspective that I've not really read here. Logos Now seems like charging for the right to be a beta tester of a new feature that may or may not come in Logos 7.

Phil disagrees with something similar to this at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/103245/713875.aspx#713875 

Posts 27047
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 3:19 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:

Here's another perspective that I've not really read here. Logos Now seems like charging for the right to be a beta tester of a new feature that may or may not come in Logos 7.

Not really - Logos Now goes through a beta testing cycle - and because Logos has added more discipline because of the 6 week cycle, the beta testing can be significantly more thorough. I would be surprised if any feature adaptable to the desktop environment did not make it into Logos 7 - well, perhaps incomplete features added in the last cycle or two.

It surprises me that no one has commented on how few questions, bugs or data errors have been reported in the Logos Now features. If Faithlife continues in the disciplined 6 week release cycle model, I expect that to continue to be the case.

Kevin A. Purcell:

I'll likely keep my subscription for a little while, but like Proclaim, the web app will need to improve vastly in the next couple of months or will cancel soon like I did with Proclaim.

It seems unrealistic to me that the web app will improve at the rate you're implying ... unless they have a warehouse full of IT-elves working at night with the perfect version control software system and perfect automated testing. I think a goal of seeing steady, noticeable progress is more realistic.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2947
Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 11 2015 3:37 AM

Bruce Dunning:

Bob Pritchett:
We intend to make Logos Now such a compelling offer that you voluntarily subscribe because it's a such a good deal, even if you hate subscriptions.

That's a great goal and shows your commitment to making Logos Now even more appealing in the months ahead.

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 1455
Forum MVP
Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 11 2015 4:01 AM

I assume that the answer to my question is already somewhere, but I haven't come across it. If I start the free subscription tentatively will it load datasets (like the propositional outline) to my computer and if I cancel the subscription, will it remove the datasets?

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

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