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This post has 147 Replies | 16 Followers

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Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 11 2015 4:13 AM

Veli Voipio:

I assume that the answer to my question is already somewhere, but I haven't come across it. If I start the free subscription tentatively will it load datasets (like the propositional outline) to my computer and if I cancel the subscription, will it remove the datasets?

I think it will, but it is possible to get it in the release of Logos 7.

Blessings in Christ.

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 11 2015 4:47 AM

Tes:

Veli Voipio:

I assume that the answer to my question is already somewhere, but I haven't come across it. If I start the free subscription tentatively will it load datasets (like the propositional outline) to my computer and if I cancel the subscription, will it remove the datasets?

I think it will, but it is possible to get it in the release of Logos 7.

Sounds fair

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Posts 623
JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 11 2015 1:05 PM

I write this having not read all 81 preceding posts.

I welcome the subscription channel, Logos Now seems timely to me.

I read through the original post, to which I am responding.

I read Don't worry, and that Faithlife is "preparing to support both models so that we can offer you more for less and address the needs of people who like both models".

Bob Pritchett:
We intend to support our existing purchase model for the foreseeable future.

If I infer - We have no plans to stop supporting our existing purchase model - am I correctly understanding your plain meaning?

Faithlife has seemingly maintained viability while many other entities pursuing the same or similar enterprises have failed or faltered. The company has grown even as it competes with much more substantially capitalized entities sharing the same market space. This history gives me the confidence to continue expending my personal capital on goods and services Faithlife offers.

 EDIT: In an earlier post Bob Pritchett provided further clarification that addresses my concern.

Bob Pritchett:
We plan to support our existing ownership model indefinitely while offering new subscription models for people who prefer them, and we plan to offer a 'supplemental' subscription product called Logos Now with such a compelling value proposition that even people who prefer ownership models subscribe to at least this. 

I won't claim that it's rational but I'm satisfied with support provided indefinitely when support for the foreseeable future unsettled me.

Bob Pritchett:
We'll continue -- as we have for 23 years -- to try and do right by all our users.

I know this to be a trustworthy statement.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

Posts 623
JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 11 2015 1:37 PM

Nathan Parker:

I'm honestly shocked that Faithlife/Logos hasn't charged a monthly subscription just for the syncing/cloud backup services we get included with Faithlife/Logos products alone. The fact that included in our base package purchases, you're throwing in backing up and syncing of all of our data files, and even the ability to go and recover deleted files through the web, is something I'd pay monthly for just to have the privilege of doing. Yet for all these years, Faithlife/Logos has still offered this service to us included in our base packages, which of course I've been extremely thankful for.

That which shocked you caused others to presume that a subscription channel was inevitable.

If you build it, they will come.

Many have implored Faithlife to provide the means to maintain backup for personal content sans internet. The presence of clouds can cause foreboding.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 5:49 PM

JAL:

Bob Pritchett:
We'll continue -- as we have for 23 years -- to try and do right by all our users.

I know this to be a trustworthy statement.

... and this has been my experience.  

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 3
RGP | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 13 2015 4:10 AM

Yes

Posts 1998
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 13 2015 4:37 AM

Friedrich:

JAL:

Bob Pritchett:
We'll continue -- as we have for 23 years -- to try and do right by all our users.

I know this to be a trustworthy statement.

... and this has been my experience.  

I agree that it comes down to this.  I have also had this experience.

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 10338
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 13 2015 7:31 AM

Well, I don't trust Bob.  Never have.  And for good reason.  Bob tries to satisfy 'most' customers (contra his 'all' customers).  And so does Walmart.

Trusting Bob (absent a commitment) is irrelevant for a strategic issue ... the better issue is 'most customers'.

Now, I would argue online is the only viable solution for Logos.  Logos4 was likely Logos' gasping attempt to keep processing on the PC platform.  'Indexing'.  But it's easy to see each of their search iterations are compromises. Even the datasets are likely compromises structurally.

Moving sophistication to a server opens up a a whole new ballgame. Nothing to do with other companies. Nothing to do with Bob's character. Or even corporate survival.

Bible study really has a major expansion in the future.


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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 13 2015 8:19 AM

Denise:
Bible study really has a major expansion in the future.

This is the only line of your post I agree with.

I trust Bob to be a major part of that major expansion.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 556
Brent Hoefling | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 15 2015 9:50 AM

I trust Faithlife/Logos.

That needs to be said out-front and first.  call me naive, or gullible - but in my experience there is a track record that from the beginning, when we own a resource, we would always have free access to the engine to use it.  I have not been disappointed.

when I first saw the Logos Now article on my Logos home-screen, and clicking to the website; i didn't even finish reading before I subscribed.  based on conversations here, perhaps I am being manipulated.  I do not feel that I am.  Unlike Apple and apple watch marketing of old technology as new and more convenient, apple watch users can now see what time it is (and other things), without even having to get their phone out of their pocket. - but that kind of marketing is another story...

but back to the reasoning for my subscription. I KNOW that I am not going to get "something for nothing".  I realize this is subscription.  I have to admit that I am looking forward to a L7, after having paid many months of LN, just so see what I will then "own", or be given opportunity in discount to own.  

Is that how it was presented?  not really.  but just being honest in my opinion of Faithlife and their treatment of me as a customer whether for years, I just added one resource at a time, or in later years upgraded further to (beyond) collectors, and will refrain from giving a total amount of my life's investment in time and money.

even IF somehow there is a paradigm shift completely and absolutely to subscription model ONLY - I know that what I have built in MY library thus far - is owned by me.  and for a minimal transfer fee, I can bequeath this to my daughter or grandson - or even to a Bible College or Seminary if I so desire.

Posts 14
Pastor Keith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 18 2015 7:19 PM

First Mr Pritchett thank you for being honest about having a steady flow of money coming in. I have been a libronix /Logos user basically since day one, I have spent a lot of money with your company over $11,000. But please DO NOT think for one second that renting a house is better than paying a mortgage and building equity and having something to sell. I do not agree with this model that you are trying to push. I think every two years was to often to put out a new upgrade, it seems that you hit the nail on the head when you say you want/need money, money, money.

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 20 2015 4:16 PM

58NAPCO:

First Mr Pritchett thank you for being honest about having a steady flow of money coming in. I have been a libronix /Logos user basically since day one, I have spent a lot of money with your company over $11,000. But please DO NOT think for one second that renting a house is better than paying a mortgage and building equity and having something to sell. I do not agree with this model that you are trying to push. I think every two years was to often to put out a new upgrade, it seems that you hit the nail on the head when you say you want/need money, money, money.

I'm not sure that is a fair characterization of what Bob has actually said they are doing. This is an addition to the current model, not a subtraction.

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Posts 1190
Myke Harbuck | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 20 2015 7:36 PM

Denise:

Well, I don't trust Bob.  Never have.  And for good reason.  Bob tries to satisfy 'most' customers (contra his 'all' customers).  And so does Walmart.

Trusting Bob (absent a commitment) is irrelevant for a strategic issue ... the better issue is 'most customers'.

Denise, the way I see it, Bob = Faithlife = Logos. If you do not trust Bob (thus, Faithlife, thus Logos), then you probably are doing business with the wrong company. Maybe you would find that trusting WordSearch is a much more viable option for you. While I love those guys at WS, I do know that I would NEVER be happy  using their framework as my primary method of research. Why? Because:

1) They have not proven themselves to be the risk taker that Bob is. Meaning, they have not been bold enough to push the envelope, bring new methodologies and technologies to the table, and motivate their customer base into a relationship steeped in loyalty. People do business with WS because of price ALONE; they do business with FL and Logos because of Bob, the innovation he brings to the table, and the trust they have in him and his product over the long haul. Bob = Faithlife = Trust [and no, this is not a paid political advertisement, LOL]. 

2) I cannot rely on WS, or other platforms, to be available to me like I can Logos. Its taxing to see the complaints that come in when there's an occasional downtime or hiccup, although such occurrences are SO SO rare, especially if you have had to experience other platforms and their FREQUENT downtimes or software fails!! 

3) There simply is no comparison between Logos and other platforms, by a long shot! While I, like many others, do get frustrated with Logos too [such as when the Logos 4 morphologies disappeared in the move to v5 with no notice, explanation, or hope of getting them back --UGH--  and I CONTINUE to be disappointed by that loss of a wonderful feature!!], yet I know that in the end Logos is as good as it gets and they stand behind what they offer, Just because I am upset about something (and boy did that upset me!!), I do not have the right to attack someone's character, especially the founder of the company, simply because I interpret  disappointments or frustrations as a violation of my trust. That's simply unfair and categorically not the Christian way to resolve concerns!  

I've seen several of your posts in other places that seem to hint at or directly assert that Logos is shady and doing business "under the table," such as this one:

"I think a knee-jerk answer might be because the duo are not putting all the cards on the table.   Customers start scrooching down, to see what's in the oher hand, under the table." (Editorial note: Typo is the original author's, not mine)

As you know, given the vast amounts of forum posts under your belt, most of the major publishers and scholars utilize Logos over any other platforms, which speaks volumes of the level of trust the Christian academic world places in ol' "untrustworthy" Bob. If he were so untrustworthy, why would so many ministries, churches, seminaries, publishers, scholars, etc, in the Christian world seek his advice, partnership, cooperation, and relationship? Why would hundreds of new customers come on board each month while hundreds of thousands of users CONTINUE to support Logos? How could FL enjoy so much success, and thus favor from the Lord, if they were really the shady folks you portray them to be?

I think your compassionless frankness demonstrates a lack of maturity, a profound disrespect for the team and leadership at Logos, and a failure to exemplify Philippians 2:3 in this situation. Take the high road...voice your concerns as a mature person of faith. Don't make such harsh, unnecessary criticisms about anyone in the forums. It solves nothing and only causes you to loose respect among your peers as you fall into sin for which you will more than likely be unwilling to repent after a public rebuke (I'm sure you are already formulating your response as you read these last lines). 

Simply put. Voice your concerns indeed, but PLEASE slow down to take a breath, think about your words, and be gentle, loving, and kind [you know, those "fruit of the Spirit" ideals we were taught in Sunday School years ago]. If you genuinely do not trust Bob, why on earth would you continue to do business with him and his team? If that is the case, move on and work on forgiving Bob for what are seemingly just mere perceived violations of trust. Even if he has violated your trust, is a public condemnation of his integrity really necessary? Was there not another way, a more excellent way? The way of Christ, maybe?

Blessings...

Signed,

A FL customer who is discouraged with the criticisms and biblically counterintuitive nature of both the tone and content of posts attacking the folks at FL these days. Let's strive to do better folks. After all, they are just human, and could use a little grace too!! Shalom y'all! Wink

Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College

Posts 14
Pastor Keith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 20 2015 7:39 PM

Actually we need to wake up this is going to lead to a replacement not an addition. (eventually)

Posts 10338
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 20 2015 7:57 PM

Myke, you spent quite a bit of typing creating a paper tiger, and then proceeded to target practice. But you need more practice. 

Logos is a business. It sells to a market. In so doing it, by necessity, must walk away from some customers in favor of an even larger group of customers. Trust presumes you know who they will choose to favor. You don't.  Nor do I. You choose trust. I don't. I buy from 4 platforms.  Logos is #3 currently (books) in my purchasing.

It's called 'bucks'. And Logos must choose customers ... maybe you.  Maybe not.


Posts 442
Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 23 2015 5:42 AM

I scratch my head as Logos continues to look for more revenue streams while they ignore the most obvious one: the Bible student with limited funds.  The cost of entry for a decent Logos package is above the reach of many people.  The competition offers much more for those with limited funds.  Compare Logos Starter to Accordance's "Bible Study" package, for example.  And Accordance has a $59 starter package with a limited number of older resources that will at least get someone started.  Olive Tree has a free Windows and Mac apps and a lot of free resources.  Logos needs to address this...

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Posts 352
Cynthia Tucker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 28 2015 12:56 PM

I've been to the Logos Now page twice to try to understand what was being offered and the benefits to me. Each time, I came away having decided not to sign up because there is simply nothing that I want right now. 

But you know what? I'm totally fine with Logos offering something I don't want right now. Whether I want it or not shouldn't hinder Logos' decision of whether to offer it. As has already been demonstrated, there are some who do want it. So, I guess I just never understand all the negativity towards Logos when things like this come about. Bob, I commend you for all the times you come here to explain yourself, when you don't need anyone's permission to do what you think is best for the company you run.

Now, just so you can have good data on why some of us aren't signing up: I'm a huge fan of Logos. I'm also a huge fan of subscription-based services. I'm a member of Netflix, Office 365 ( I held out a while on that one, but am very pleased with it now), and Amazon Prime. But I'm not interested in Logos Now because my primary Logos interest is the resources, and Logos Now doesn't give me access to new ones. 

I understand that I get access to certain features, but they've never been the big draw for me. When new Logos releases come out, I immediately jump on board because of the nice, shiny new resource packages I get. The extra features received are a benefit that I would wait for if it weren't for the new resources.

So.....I'm waiting for something like a subscription plan for a gillion resources! Or if not a gillion, how about the Collectors Edition as a start? I would sign up TODAY. :-)

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Posts 3065
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 29 2015 5:23 AM

Cynthia Tucker:

I've been to the Logos Now page twice to try to understand what was being offered and the benefits to me. Each time, I came away having decided not to sign up because there is simply nothing that I want right now. 

But you know what? I'm totally fine with Logos offering something I don't want right now. Whether I want it or not shouldn't hinder Logos' decision of whether to offer it. As has already been demonstrated, there are some who do want it. So, I guess I just never understand all the negativity towards Logos when things like this come about. Bob, I commend you for all the times you come here to explain yourself, when you don't need anyone's permission to do what you think is best for the company you run.

Now, just so you can have good data on why some of us aren't signing up: I'm a huge fan of Logos. I'm also a huge fan of subscription-based services. I'm a member of Netflix, Office 365 ( I held out a while on that one, but am very pleased with it now), and Amazon Prime. But I'm not interested in Logos Now because my primary Logos interest is the resources, and Logos Now doesn't give me access to new ones. 

I understand that I get access to certain features, but they've never been the big draw for me. When new Logos releases come out, I immediately jump on board because of the nice, shiny new resource packages I get. The extra features received are a benefit that I would wait for if it weren't for the new resources.

So.....I'm waiting for something like a subscription plan for a gillion resources! Or if not a gillion, how about the Collectors Edition as a start? I would sign up TODAY. :-)

Very well put and I agree as well with the subscription model for resources.  Wouldn't mind Collectors myself ;)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 29 2015 1:13 PM

There are a number of resources that can be rented.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 29 2015 1:38 PM

Cynthia Tucker:
So.....I'm waiting for something like a subscription plan for a gillion resources! Or if not a gillion, how about the Collectors Edition as a start? I would sign up TODAY. :-)

But how much should Collector's Edition rent for? If it is too high nobody will subscribe. If it is very cheap nobody will ever buy it again. There is also that pesky issue of publisher's royalties.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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