CrowdSourcing: Is it time for a revival...

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 29 2015 7:49 AM

Randy W. Sims:

Would a visual filter like solution that displayed user typo corrections be subject to publisher restrictions?

I believe the restriction that Mark was referring to, is where the actual text of the resource gets updated.

Concerning this restriction, I think it would be in Logos' best interest to still allow "crowd-sourcing" of the typo fixing, but they could then have these submissions filtered. Those occurring in resources that wouldn't have these restrictions (e.g. Lexham Press), could use the express lane. With some publishers Faithlife could negotiate allowing this with the condition that the publisher be provided an exhaustive list of corrections (benefit to the publisher!) For the remaining instances (where restrictions remained) Logos would at least not have to wade through multiple reports of the same typo and/or incorrect reports. Instead, they would only need review a single instance of legitimate reports, helping streamline things on their end.

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 29 2015 8:40 AM

Rick:
In some cases there are copyright issues. On more than one occasion I have seen someone report a typo/error, only to be told that it is actually not a typo but spelled that way in the actual resource.

How about a visual filter functionality to correct typos in that case?

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 29 2015 9:15 AM

Veli Voipio:

Rick:
In some cases there are copyright issues. On more than one occasion I have seen someone report a typo/error, only to be told that it is actually not a typo but spelled that way in the actual resource.

How about a visual filter functionality to correct typos in that case?

I think this would be a WONDERFUL solution. My thought is that the filter could automatically cause the typo to be in a gray font with the correction following (perhaps in a capsule).

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Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 29 2015 9:18 AM

While I do think there may be a space for this sort of thing on a small scale, enthusiasm should be tempered in offering to do for free what we've already paid Logos Faithlife to do.

In other words, this:

Everett Headley:

My initial thought is this:  I have invested over $6,000 into my library with Logos.  Many, if not all, of these are "value added."  This means instead of the bargin at Kindle, I went with Logos.  In the case of "From Heaven He Came and Sought Her" it was a $32.95 vs $3.99.  

For that kind of money, I expect that all linkage be correct and complete. For me to pay a near 10X mark up I do not want to see the need for a crowdsourced editing; Logos should foot the bill for this and employ more/better QA/Editors.

This is why I have a thread that I regularly post in:  Too often (and in the same book referenced above, just released this year) I find no hyperlinking.  It is frustrating because this is why I have everything in Logos and why I pay the premium pricing.  If I wanted to search for a refernce in a another book I would have used someone else.

Bottom Line:  Logos needs to do its own policing and editing and increase (dare I say set any) the standard for hyperlinking.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 29 2015 9:47 AM

Everett Headley:
For that kind of money, I expect that all linkage be correct and complete. For me to pay a near 10X mark up I do not want to see the need for a crowdsourced editing; Logos should foot the bill for this and employ more/better QA/Editors.

My sentiments exactly.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 29 2015 10:04 AM

Rick:
I would think that only Faithlife would be able to review and approve changes. In some cases there are copyright issues. On more than one occasion I have seen someone report a typo/error, only to be told that it is actually not a typo but spelled that way in the actual resource. Users who don't have the original files to compare their changes with may actually be changing something in the resource that should not be changed. 

I think this is the only reasonable excuse for having typos present. I was told it is rude to correct others' typos in the forums and I noticed the "(sic)" footnote in professional journalism. So maybe there is something to leaving source material typos intact.

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Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 29 2015 10:25 AM

Veli Voipio:
How about a visual filter functionality to correct typos in that case?

Hi Veli, I honestly don't know what the best course of action to take would be. I really have not put a whole lot of thought into it. 

Although I really would appreciate 100% accuracy, the few typos that I encounter don't really bother me. What really irritates me is when I find things that are completely omitted such as missing images, maps etc.

Disclaimer: I use Logos only for my personal study. I am not a student and hold no office or position in the church. I completely understand why those who use Logos as a student, elder or for professional reasons, need higher standards. I'm sure that I don't use and depend on it nearly as much as they do. 

Peace  Smile

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Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 29 2015 10:41 AM

Super.Tramp:
I think this is the only reasonable excuse for having typos present.

I agree. I believe that we all realize that mistakes happen, but, we should expect these mistakes to be fixed within a reasonable time. Sometimes, though, it appears as if Faithlife simply doesn't care. There are some resources that are simply horrible. An example, for me, would be "First Corinthians: An Exegetical-Pastoral Commentary". It was released over two years ago and from day one has had very bad formatting that makes grey areas look like some kind of a highlighting. See: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/67793.aspx 

I know that this can be fixed because many other resources have the same kind of grey boxes that these highlights are supposed to be.

Peace  Smile

Romans 14:19 (NRSV)
19 Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

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Eli Evans (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 30 2015 10:48 AM

Hi, Eli Evans here. Head of interaction design.

Hyperlink tagging: I've added a card to our ideas board to extend Community Tagging to all data types, not just Factbook headings, and also to periodically "harvest" these tags and integrate them into the index (rather than keeping them segregated as Community Tags). The first part is pretty straightforward; the second part will pose some (surmountable but non-trivial) technical challenges.

Typo fixing: Unfortunately, there's just no way around the legalities involved in letting users fix typos. Sad but true: Sometimes WE don't get permission to fix typos in the print. 

But we could make improvements to the typo reporting and fixing workflow, as well as the hyperlink tagging process. We're coming up on a audit/review of both of those processes in a few weeks. (Don't know what will come of that yet. That's why we do the review. Smile)

The visual filter to replace text is an interesting idea. We've discussed it internally before; the main hesitation is that changing the surface text won't change the underlying index, so searching and other features will still work off of the unchanged data.

Such a filter would need a dataset of pending corrections to accompany it, and creating that dataset from the existing typo reports wouldn't be perfect. There would definitely have to be some kind of multiple-report threshold; you'd be surprised what some people will write into the correction slot (hint: not corrected text). Even then it's surprising how often people try to correct things that aren't wrong, like British spellings or references to Joel 4 that (correctly) point to the Hebrew versification. Plus many people leave the correction text blank. Sometimes that means the word should be deleted; sometimes it's an indication that the correction is self-evident. Computer programs can't tell the difference.

Anyway, I can't promise anything concrete, but this issue is on our radar. 

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 30 2015 11:00 AM

Eli Evans:

Hi, Eli Evans here. Head of interaction design.

Hyperlink tagging: I've added a card to our ideas board to extend Community Tagging to all data types, not just Factbook headings, and also to periodically "harvest" these tags and integrate them into the index (rather than keeping them segregated as Community Tags). The first part is pretty straightforward; the second part will pose some (surmountable but non-trivial) technical challenges.

This sounds more than reasonable!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 30 2015 11:07 AM

I would love the equivalent of community tags to add links however there is an elephant in the room ... its called "missing datatypes" especially relating to church fathers from my experience but scattered widely elsewhere ... it also has a shadowy cousin called "duplicate inconsistent datatypes" where the same text is given different datatypes in different environments ... then there is the stepchild called "missing synonyms" which is agitating the current Factbook set.. I suppose the good news is that the elephant(s) in the room keep the population of wild and unruly elephants up ... the bad news is they give me headaches.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 30 2015 11:57 AM

Eli Evans:
Typo fixing: Unfortunately, there's just no way around the legalities involved in letting users fix typos. Sad but true: Sometimes WE don't get permission to fix typos in the print.

Understood, but to reduce user frustration (at least to some degree), I suggest that Logos implement some sort of margin icon similar to the speaker icon that would indicate that a given typo has previously been reported and/or acknowledged but cannot currently be fixed. That will alert users to the situation and keep them from wasting time and help them know that the situation has been addressed even if not remedied.

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 1 2015 7:23 AM

Eli Evans:
to periodically "harvest" these tags and integrate them into the index

Great! I hope that this "periodically" would be no greater than the 6 week release cycle.

Eli Evans:

Typo fixing: Unfortunately, there's just no way around the legalities involved in letting users fix typos. Sad but true: Sometimes WE don't get permission to fix typos in the print. 

But we could make improvements to the typo reporting and fixing workflow, 

Hopefully the suggestions in this thread can help chart the course! Wink

Eli Evans:

you'd be surprised what some people will write into the correction slot (hint: not corrected text). Even then it's surprising how often people try to correct things that aren't wrong, like British spellings or references to Joel 4 that (correctly) point to the Hebrew versification. Plus many people leave the correction text blank. Sometimes that means the word should be deleted; sometimes it's an indication that the correction is self-evident. Computer programs can't tell the difference. 

If I don't miss my guess, this is one of the major reasons for the (reportedly) huge backlog of typos. In my mind this would be a tremendous reason to allow the system we're proposing...the "corrections" that make it through to the legit status would be vastly reduced in number, meaning that Faithlife employees wouldn't be quite as "snowed under."

Eli Evans:

The visual filter to replace text is an interesting idea. We've discussed it internally before; the main hesitation is that changing the surface text won't change the underlying index, so searching and other features will still work off of the unchanged data. 

If the visual filter was replacing adding text, wouldn't it be possible to have searching include the added text? For the visual filter I would propose a main filter called "User Corrections" that would have two subsets; 1) "pending approval" & 2) "verified"(but permanent). The "pending approval" would include all (group) approved corrections (mostly typos) that needed further review. After Faithlife reviewed these to determine their permissibility, they would be moved either into the index of "harvested" corrections, or into the second sub-filter "permanent." 

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 1 2015 8:10 AM

Eli Evans:

Typo fixing: Unfortunately, there's just no way around the legalities involved in letting users fix typos. Sad but true: Sometimes WE don't get permission to fix typos in the print...

If the typos are exactly as printed, I guess most users are willing to accept that.

Eli Evans:

Even then it's surprising how often people try to correct things that aren't wrong, like British spellings or references to Joel 4 that (correctly) point to the Hebrew versification. Plus many people leave the correction text blank. Sometimes that means the word should be deleted; sometimes it's an indication that the correction is self-evident. Computer programs can't tell the difference.

Consider the suggestion of having select few users who are more experienced or cleared for greater privileges.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 1 2015 2:02 PM

Cold water alert: using the new concordance feature on two books, a statistically insignificant sample, I exported the word list into Excel and spellchecked it. I chose two texts I personally perceived as error-prone. To my surprise what I found was very few spelling errors. (Note this method doesn't catch valid spellings but an incorrect word). I suspect that the level of accuracy that Bob P. touts is, in fact, met. What I did find was a number of errors in language tagging.

Secondly, looking at community tagging thus far I am unimpressed with the quality - Israel the nation and Israel the person being frequently mistagged by the community tags in the particular book I am reading.

I like the idea of harvesting tagging and corrections and think it could ultimately work. But I suspect that as a solution it is far more complex that it appears on the surface.

I have an older sister who works as a proof-reader for an educational software firm. She's pushing into the "elderly" category and works from home. What I would like Faithlife to consider as a starting point is letting selected individuals prove their proof-reading skills (something I couldn't do) and allow them to work through assigned books in exchange for free books

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 1 2015 6:15 PM

Eli Evans:

Hi, Eli Evans here. Head of interaction design.

Hyperlink tagging: I've added a card to our ideas board to extend Community Tagging to all data types, not just Factbook headings, and also to periodically "harvest" these tags and integrate them into the index (rather than keeping them segregated as Community Tags). The first part is pretty straightforward; the second part will pose some (surmountable but non-trivial) technical challenges.

Typo fixing: Unfortunately, there's just no way around the legalities involved in letting users fix typos. Sad but true: Sometimes WE don't get permission to fix typos in the print. 

But we could make improvements to the typo reporting and fixing workflow, as well as the hyperlink tagging process. We're coming up on a audit/review of both of those processes in a few weeks. (Don't know what will come of that yet. That's why we do the review. Smile)

The visual filter to replace text is an interesting idea. We've discussed it internally before; the main hesitation is that changing the surface text won't change the underlying index, so searching and other features will still work off of the unchanged data.

Such a filter would need a dataset of pending corrections to accompany it, and creating that dataset from the existing typo reports wouldn't be perfect. There would definitely have to be some kind of multiple-report threshold; you'd be surprised what some people will write into the correction slot (hint: not corrected text). Even then it's surprising how often people try to correct things that aren't wrong, like British spellings or references to Joel 4 that (correctly) point to the Hebrew versification. Plus many people leave the correction text blank. Sometimes that means the word should be deleted; sometimes it's an indication that the correction is self-evident. Computer programs can't tell the difference.

Anyway, I can't promise anything concrete, but this issue is on our radar. 

Thank you so much, Eli!

As youre considering this direction, consider mobile apps as a primary platform for reading. 

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

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Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 1 2015 10:12 PM

It would be neat for typos. Also, for those that want a "Crowdsourced Study Bible", I setup the Community Study Bible Faithlife group. It's neat to check out. Needs some more interaction though.

Nathan Parker

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JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 1 2015 11:04 PM

David Paul:

Eli Evans:
Typo fixing: Unfortunately, there's just no way around the legalities involved in letting users fix typos. Sad but true: Sometimes WE don't get permission to fix typos in the print.

Understood, but to reduce user frustration (at least to some degree), I suggest that Logos implement some sort of margin icon similar to the speaker icon that would indicate that a given typo has previously been reported and/or acknowledged but cannot currently be fixed. That will alert users to the situation and keep them from wasting time and help them know that the situation has been addressed even if not remedied.

 Eli, I like David's suggestion. Some means of identifying known errors that doesn't violate copyright, or publisher contract, must be attainable.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 2 2015 3:59 AM

MJ. Smith:

I have an older sister who works as a proof-reader for an educational software firm. She's pushing into the "elderly" category and works from home. What I would like Faithlife to consider as a starting point is letting selected individuals prove their proof-reading skills (something I couldn't do) and allow them to work through assigned books in exchange for free books

I suggested something like this a couple of years ago. F.L. ought to consider this. For example, months ago someone who was learning/teaching Hebrew pointed out glaring errors in a Hebrew grammar. There's a lot to be said for incentivizing individuals like that.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 2 2015 5:20 AM

JAL:

David Paul:

Eli Evans:
Typo fixing: Unfortunately, there's just no way around the legalities involved in letting users fix typos. Sad but true: Sometimes WE don't get permission to fix typos in the print.

Understood, but to reduce user frustration (at least to some degree), I suggest that Logos implement some sort of margin icon similar to the speaker icon that would indicate that a given typo has previously been reported and/or acknowledged but cannot currently be fixed. That will alert users to the situation and keep them from wasting time and help them know that the situation has been addressed even if not remedied.

 Eli, I like David's suggestion. Some means of identifying known errors that doesn't violate copyright, or publisher contract, must be attainable.

This would be the equivalent of an ebook sic. When quoting books with errors, sic is used to indicated the error is in the book and is being quoted "as is". It makes perfect sense that ebooks would indicate the same thing.

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