Do you want every ebook in the world in Logos?

  Hi Bob,

 In my opinion, I would rather do business with Faithlife than Amazon any day. It would be wonderful to have a much greater selection of books to choose from.

 I also understand the feeling you have of not wanting to be associated with books like 50 Shades of Grey. I wouldn't want to be associated with it either.

But I think that the benefit of having Keller's Reason for God and other such resources outweighs the negative feelings I have for books I will never consider reading. I can't imagine someone wanting to index junk on their hard-drive. However, if people don't like it, they don't have to buy it. Most of the people who want to buy 50 Shades of Grey will be doing so from another retailer anyway.

 If such a decision in favor is made, I feel that the best route is to create a separate store. I don't think the Noet customers would feel happy having their store swamped with non-scholarly literature.

  The other option is to reinvent Vyrso. That would be ok with me.

  I feel that in offering a greater selection would be healthy for Faithlife.

Thanks, Bob, for asking us. And thanks for all the hard work you guys are putting into this. God bless!

 

The sages said "don't let anyone tell you that you can't do it"...

But Jesus said "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God"

and He also said, "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs"

I say, maybe secularism and compromise is coming.. 

This is not an easy question to answer, and whatever answer you give, Bob, some are going to be unhappy with it. It's a difficult call. But I, for one, would love to see as many books in Logos as possible. I like Amazon & the wide range of titles it offers, but the Kindle apps are awful & nearly useless in comparison to Logos. If I could just shop through a Logos/Faithlife-affiliated store (MJ's thought is a good one) and never have to go to Amazon again for ebooks, I'd be very happy.

Thank you, Bob, for asking our opinion. A couple thoughts:

Since you mention Amazon, it brings to the fore the difference between Logos Bible Software and the Kindle readers (on any platform), namely, Logos is not just a reader but a specialized study tool. Because of its close association with biblical studies, the tools are correspondingly adapted. To have the equivalent in subject matters such as physics or maths, one would imagine that there would need to be calculators, function drawing, etc. This cannot all be done in one software. In other words, if as a company, you expanded business to become more a general book provider, Logos Bible Software would not be the right tool for it. You might want to create a different reader for that, but then how would it be different from Kindle? 

I agree with some of the previous posts that there is also the question of the company's identity. Becoming a distributor of shades of grey should not be a necessary condition for providing better access to Christian books. If some publishers try to impose the all or nothing approach, I would prefer personally that Logos retains a Christian distinctiveness even if it means less access. The intersection of ethics and business still matters to many of us.

A model that would be closer to the mark of broadening access to educational resources without swinging to the amazon model would be something along the lines of services like ebrary/proquest. The contents are strictly educational and academic. If you went that way, it would need a reader of its own (and a different branding than faithlife) and a feature that I requested before already, the ability for users to manage their resources so as to choose to have some in Logos desktop only, some in Noet only or Vyrso only (with the option to have some resources present in all platforms, something like the current devices setting in the resource info pane).

One last consideration, there have been concerns in the past that FL was trying to do too much and that quality had suffered for it. Though it does not need to be that way, the question arises as to what impact such a broadening of focus would have on the company's operation and for us longer term customers and our investments, whether it would -- even if you don't intend it -- result in a diluting of sort, a double-mindedness as it were when it comes to focus, and less resources/priority going to the current platform.

If Faithlife wanted to make every ebook in the world available, that would be fine with me - as long as they were kept separate (Either in vyrso or in a new separate store).

I would be particularly keen for monographs from the likes of OUP or CUP which the publishers already offer in ebook formats but for which there may not be the demand to produce as individual Logos resources.

It would also be good if this new category of books followed the current pattern of books which start out in Vyrso/ebook format and then 'graduate' to Logos format.

Well, I would say yes, but hesitantly.

Would this mean millions of books in Pre-pub? Of wich millions of books would never get out? Or would it mean that the majority of books would never have Logos functionality? I believe the Logos.com website should have only Logos-quality books and a reasonable percentage of books in pre-pub.

*second thought* Really, how much time and energy would all other books cost? Couldn't you just drop them on a website somewhere, where no-one is ever bothered by them?

*final thought* I really do not know, make a wise decision!

Bob,

You ask a most interesting question, and my initial answer is that yes, I’d like it if your company carried “everything” I might ever want to buy, borrow or rent.

My concerns however include the following kinds of angle:

Is your company, and hence my investment to date, better protected or more put at possible future risk if you went with the “All” option? My investment is best served if the company continues to exist for as long as I can still read or listen. (I know you know how to see if my library is $500 or $5000.)

Would some of the Christian publishers refuse or prefer to not have their titles sold by “EveryBook.com”?

As others already have commented, there is the whole focus and branding matter to also consider. Would you in fact draw the line at “50 Shades …” or maybe fiction by Penthouse? If there was a line, where do you draw it? Or do you do it the Amazon way and for the most part sell anything that is lawful and let the buyer chose to buy or not buy?

It would be important to continue to improve the tagging and collections ability within the client software. I would not want it to find “50 Shades …” if I was searching for all examples of [something] when I was wanting to plan a bible study outline. I also might not want the client software to keep offering me books about Genesis and Creation when I was studying for my biology exam. In much the same way I generally already don’t want to find all the Amish Romance novels when I’m currently searching for something about life in early Corinth.

Take the examples when people have returned the free Harvard Classics etc, as it makes the indexing and searching a pain. The solution is for people to have all the free ones, yet be able to have better control over the collections.

It would also be nice if I could have my 200 GB library on my Intel i9, 23 GHz PC at home, but only a 20 GB subset downloaded and indexed on my Microsoft Surface Pro 5. Right now we get a choice of all or all on our desktops, which does not fit on small portables so well.

In summary yes please – bring it on, but I need the company to continue so my investment to date and beyond is not at risk.

Thanks and Regards, Jim

Francis said:

but only distribute some?

I suspect that is not an option - or Bob wouldn't have asked the question!

Shalom

Would it or could it still be called Logos Bible Software?

I'll give a more thought out answer later but all the ebooks? No. I don't think we need Charlie and the Chocolate Factory etc... in Logos.  However, I am all for expanding the Non-Fiction works, especially in the Theological realm. 

I would like to see Logos start a campaign to go to colleges and universities to find what their textbook lists are and start actively obtaining those resources as a priority.

NB.Mick said:

David Taylor Jr said:

I'll give a more thought out answer later but all the ebooks? No. I don't think we need Charlie and the Chocolate Factory etc... in Logos.

While even in this example some might want to differ, you should read Bob's post beyond the title.

But you picked a good example. Let's assume Faithlife discussed with Multnomah ( https://www.logos.com/products/search?Publisher=Multnomah - gives some well-known John Piper books ) about a contract renewal or enhancement. Now they say: "we want to go beyond managing single books or imprints to a group level. You can have Multnomah stuff in a contract for all our electronically published books, but only if you put all of them into the shop (and "our" is everything from Penguin Random House group)". This will bring lots of stuff in, but it also lets customers buy Dahl's Charlie.... since Puffin Books also belongs to the Penguin Random House group.

It's a win for Faithlife and for us, since we now can have books that were previously unavailable (possibly including Langenscheidt's dictionaries), and continue to have books available, since they don't do the Moody on us. And it's a win for Penguin Random House since you may be inclined to buy Charlie and the Chocolate Factory nevertheless when you see it in the store (or buy it here instead of on a large book retailer).  

This is a good point.  I do think it would bloat an already not so easy to navigate store. Perhaps the two storefront option? Or better organization of current selections in preparation? I don't know. 

With the example of the erotic fiction I would say has no place in logos.com. I will say if that ever made its way into the store I would cease using Logos on moral grounds.  If that is a publisher's stance, I would say leave it on the table and walk away.

Bob,

I appreciate the continuing thoughts that you folks have about expanding the business model and how in most ways this is a benefit to most of us users. I think that a corporation that has a primary focus on providing Christian resources to it's user base is always challenged to see how it can grow it's customer base. I experienced this growing up with a father who owned a Christian bookstore but couldn't survive just selling Bibles and Christian books. One had to expand to other product lines such as gifts and such to make it work.

As to the 'all or nothing' from the publishers, this is a difficult one to come up with a good conclusion. Some thoughts.

1. Do the publishers force you to have their entire inventory that they have available in e-book format to be made available on your platform? Or can you choose? Sounds like not. I can see where they would relish another distribution platform outside of primarily Amazon or Nook.

2. How should a Christian business owner handle selling of materials that are contrary to their Biblical beliefs? For example if you own a drugstore in a small town that is also the source of magazines do you not sell certain magazines that are contrary to Biblical principles. I was once aware of a Christian store that did sell Playboy magazines along with the other magazines and was questioned about whether they should do that. I think this gets harder as the society tends to become more secular.

3. How would taking on all these new streams of resources impact the focus and efforts that are applied to the core business of supplying Biblical study resource material? Could something like this overtake the primary focus? I have heard that the sale of books which was the initial focus of Amazon now accounts for less than 10% of Amazon sales.

4. I would think it would be important to allow users to isolate books from each of the platforms if they desired. I might have 500 Kindle books that if I had bought them in Logos, I might want most of them kept distinct from my Logos library. Currently any Noet or Vyrso resource shows up in Logos.

5. A challenge that you currently have is that publishers or Amazon promote Kindle books at reduced prices that do not always migrate over to Faithlife. It is a challenge to think of; do I buy the Kindle book at $3.99 vs a higher price (usually) in the Logos platform. I understand the added value and cost for that option.

6. I am one who likes to have the greatest options available to me so I would like to have books available in Logos that I don't have now. But where do you draw the line as a focused business as to what you sell and promote? How big of a fence do you put up around your business? One could say that there are resources that you currently have that should not be part of your offerings. How narrow should we be as Christians in the business world? I don't see this getting any easier.

I agree with Kendall's reply [Y]

Definitely would like to see this.

I prefer a separate store, although I would like to see academic books in NOET, anything touching on Christianity in Logos/Verbum/Vyrso. Possibly tag books to indicate which store they are sold from.

The general store, I would prefer to be family friendly, something even non-christians should appreciate. If you can't ban unfriendly books, demand that publishers rate their books for family-friendliness. Then allow users to set the level of family-friendliness as a permanent user preference. 

Randy W. Sims said:

Definitely would like to see this.

I prefer a separate store, although I would like to see academic books in NOET, anything touching on Christianity in Logos/Verbum/Vyrso. Possibly tag books to indicate which store they are sold from.

The general store, I would prefer to be family friendly, something even non-christians should appreciate. If you can't ban unfriendly books, demand that publishers rate their books for family-friendliness. Then allow users to set the level of family-friendliness as a permanent user preference. 

Almost like a parental control filter? I like that idea.

Bob Pritchett said:

If we could offer every ebook Amazon offers, but only if we did offer every ebook Amazon offers, should we?

I'll try not to become too verbose in my reply-

NO!!!!

Doc B said:

NO!!!!

I've been watching this debate grow for a few hours now - I didn't want to just answer out of "knee jerk" style.

However I think I am with Doc B on this - sometimes principles are just that - things to keep or break. If they are broken - they are broken. Whilst I appreciate the clamour for more titles, more content, more business - sometimes a line has to be drawn.

At the end of the day it is your decision, just bear in mind that it is not us you have to please - but our Father in Heaven. Simple commerce and nothing but are what is getting the western world in such a mess financially. The blessing of God is priceless and in my view has a direct connection (albeit subtle) to our earthly success.

I also appreciate you asking us - you need also to be asking Him - however I do think that you really know the answer.

Shalom.

JohnB said:

Since I buy books from Amazon now that Logos do not stock why would I not be willing not to buy from a separate FL site to the current ones?

For the same reason one would not want to see them in the church library even if one could just as much choose not to read them. 

As others have stated, I think that the stores need to be kept separate. I (and I assume many others) use Logos exclusively for Bible study. The last thing that I want to do is go into the Logos store and see a bunch of secular stuff and have to filter through it. I'm sure that with such a large amount of secular resources, some of it would simply be unacceptable for me. I will avoid browsing the store and be happy with what I already have if that becomes reality.

Also, please give us an option to keep the secular stuff off of our Logos home pages.

NO!

It would be nice to have all your reading and studying material on the same platform, but at what cost? Even if you set it up as another storefront, that doesn't remove your responsibility as a publisher. Are you willing to provide the entrance of a "brother" to obtain, let's say, certain erotica fiction and that would be the very instrument used by him to enter the world of pornography? Or perhaps other books would be offered that would cause a lost individual to go so deep in sin, that his conscience becomes seared and he no longer can respond to the gospel?

Yes, I understand that this is a business "opportunity" but you will still have to give an account of what you do as a businessman before the Lord. And yes, the individual is responsible for what he buys and the choices that he makes, but so is the publisher for making such books available. I would not want that on my conscience to know that I aided and abetted an individual concerning sin "opportunities." I pray that you make the right decision..

What an interesting conundrum.

- Logos already sells what in earlier times would merit Bob being burned at the stake.  But these days, it's for research. You know, the ones that prove the jewish priests invented the south Edom god now known as God.  The Bible's somewhat of a fraud, etc.

- The Logos Christian dating went up in massive flames, I'm not sure why. Many a parent hopes for Christian spouses for their kids.

- And cloudy licenses were all the rage just months ago. Might take away from our precious investments.

- But Bob selling just about anything the Evil One can dream up .... well, OK.  As long as it makes my Logos at bit more convenient. Sure.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic as usual.