Create Catagory Dispensational in Systematic Theologies Guide

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John Brumett | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, May 28 2015 6:58 PM
Please create the category dispensational for the following Theologians in the Systematic Theology section of the Passage guide 
At this point they are incorrectly classified.   
 
Dispensational
 
Chafer was the First President of Dallas Theological Seminary
Here is the author info at the Logos Web sight:
Chafer authored the eight-volume Systematic Theology, which was the first dispensational, premillennial systematic theology ever published.  
 
Walvoord was the Second President of Dallas Theological Seminary
 
Swindall was the Fourth President of Dallas Theological Seminary
Roy Zuck also taught at DTS and was dispensational so the book Understanding Christians Theology should be classified as Dispensational  
 
Ryrie also taught at Dallas Theological Seminary and was dispensational.  He wrote a book called Dispensationalism Today. 
 
Here is the author info at the Logos Web sight:
Charles Caldwell Ryrie (1925– ) is a renowned author and scholar and key figure in the theology of dispensationalism.   
 
Paul Enns Graduated from Dallas Theology and the Moody Handbook of Theology is Dispensational
 
Dr. Lightner also taught in the Theology Department at DTS and is Dispensational  (He is a personal friend of mind)
 
Geisler's 4 volume Systematic Theology set is Dispensational he taught at DTS for a brief period of time.  
 
Henry Thiessen Lectures in Systematic Theology is also Dispensational  
 
 
 
Enns, Paul P.; Title: The Moody Handbook of Theology
 

Lightner, Robert; Title: Handbook of Evangelical Theology: A Historical, Biblical, and Contemporary Survey and Review

 

Chafer, Lewis Sperry; Title: Systematic Theology
        Author(s): Chafer, Lewis Sperry; Title: Systematic Theology, Volume 7: Doctrinal Summarization
 
Geisler, Norman L.; Title: Systematic Theology, Volume One: Introduction, Bible
        Author(s): Geisler, Norman L.; Title: Systematic Theology, Volume Two: God, Creation
        Author(s): Geisler, Norman L.; Title: Systematic Theology, Volume Three: Sin, Salvation
        Author(s): Geisler, Norman L.; Title: Systematic Theology, Volume Four: Church, Last Things
 
Ryrie, Charles Caldwell; Title: Ryrie's Basic Theology
        Author(s): Ryrie, Charles Caldwell; Title: A Survey of Bible Doctrine

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 28 2015 7:06 PM

I'm confused. Dispensationalism is a particular position taken by theologians of a variety of theological traditions (denominations). Wouldn't it be equivalent to requesting that praedobaptism/baptism of faith, real presence/symbolic eucharist etc.?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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John Brumett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 28 2015 7:19 PM

M.J. No, Dispensationalism is a system that affect every area of their Systematic Theology not just one point.

Dispensationalist hold to:

1.  A distinction between Israel and the Church

2.  Literal Interpretation

3.  The Glory of God as the Chief goal of human history

Dispensationalist have a unique view of Eschatology.  All of the ones listed believe in the Pre-Tribulational and Pre-Millennial Return of Christ for the Church.  They believe in Israel's right to the land and a future restoration of Israel in the Kingdom. 

 

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John Brumett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 28 2015 7:22 PM

Another point:  All of these individuals graduated or taught at Dallas Theological Seminary.  The leading Dispensational School in the country.    

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 28 2015 7:48 PM

I am not convinced by your arguments Luckily it is for Faithlife to determine not for me to argue.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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John Brumett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 29 2015 5:53 AM

Dispensationalism is a system of theology that affects every area of systematic theology. They have a unique prospective on angels, man, sin, salvation, the spiritual life, prophecy, Israel, ect.

For example the first President of Dallas Theology Seminary was Chafer and he is listed as Nondemonational.  The second President of Dallas Theological Seminary was Walvoord and he is listed as Presberytarian.  Their theology is almost identical.  The same with the other DTS grads.  It is helpful if like systematic theologies are classifed together.  Right now They are scattered among 4 categories.  

This is different then say putting together every person who Believes the Trinity.  This is one area of systematic theology whereas the Dispensationalist this I listed are together 95 percent on every area of Systematic Theology.        

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Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 29 2015 9:19 AM

John,

I agree with you, the prominent theologians that hold to dispensationalism, should be grouped into a separate category. I know that there are many denominations that generally hold to a dispensationalist view of scriptures, but I would want those Systematic theologies separated from those that are coming from a dispensationalist point of view.

I know that trying to separate different theologians by classification, is something that is complex and sometimes subjective. But I believe in this case it is warranted. 

Most Pentecostal and Charismatic theologians hold to dispensationalism as well as most Southern Baptist, perhaps a dual listing? I'm not sure what would be best here for classification purposes.

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 29 2015 9:24 AM

Hi John.

We've gathered a lot of data about systematic theologies (both in Logos and in print but not in Logos … yet). Denominational/traditional affiliation of the author is only one of those items, and it is the one we chose to use as a resource-level filter for this tool.

We've also gathered information on views/systems like dispensationalism. Some systematic theologies come from Calvinist perspectives, others from other perspectives such as unitarianism; others focus on covenantal issues. There is wide variety.

MJ's point about dispensationalism as a system applying to aspects of multiple denominational traditions that overlap was pretty much our perspective as the data was gathered and as we considered organizing principles for the Passage Guide section.

Anyway, we're considering using all the other data about systematic theologies and their authors in some sort of interactive resource down the road, and this information on views/systems like Calvinism, Arminiansm, Dispensationalism, etc., will be utilized there.

Rick Brannan
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John Brumett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 29 2015 6:29 PM

The problem with this is that all these theologians come from the same school (Dallas theological Seminary) and teach the same things.  Dr. Walvoord was not teaching a Presbyterian form of Dispensationalism and Dr. Lightner a Baptist form of dispensationalism.  They are both teaching Dispensationalism.  There are no Charismatic dispensationalist listed. If you want to classify them according to Denominational Categories then place them all together under independant or under non-denominational.  Independent would be better because the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary Chafer is listed under that category.  By the way Chafer was a Presbyterian but please do not put him under that category.  

Right now all these authors are scattered under 4 separate categories (independant, nondenominational, Presbyterian and Baptist) and the theologies are the same.   

          

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Robert M. Warren | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 29 2015 6:57 PM

Bobby Terhune:
Most Pentecostal and Charismatic theologians hold to dispensationalism as well as most Southern Baptist, perhaps a dual listing? I'm not sure what would be best here for classification purposes.

There are also a number of Calvinists who are also dispensationalists (although JFM calls himself a "leaky dispensationalist").

Maybe someone could program a dynamic 3D Larkin-esque chart to show the various streams for the guide, although it might require a new dataset Big Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 29 2015 7:34 PM

John Brumett:

The problem with this is that all these theologians come from the same school (Dallas theological Seminary) and teach the same things.        

So should there be a Princeton Theological Seminary theologies? The Princeton Theology, The Princeton Modernist Theology ....

From Wikipedia:

"During the 19th and early 20th centuries, Princeton Theological Seminary received widespread attention for its defense of Calvinistic Presbyterianism, a tradition which became known as Princeton Theology and greatly influenced Evangelicalism during the period. In response to the increasing influence of theological liberalism in the 1920s and the Fundamentalist-Modernist Controversy at the institution, several theologians left to form the Westminster Theological Seminary under the leadership of J. Gresham Machen."

It is not at all uncommon to have theologians who share beliefs in some areas of theology to be spread across multiple theological schools whether those schools of thought are identified by denomination or academic tags. If I recall correctly, dispensationalism traces through the Plymouth Brethren and has spread from those roots.

Given the position of Chafer in the chart below, I would expect DTS to be in the dispensational thread. His cofounder of DTSS William Griffith Thomas appears to identified himself as Anglican with dispensational beliefs. And it appears that Chafer would identify himself as Congregationalist with dispensational beliefs. Or am I missing something?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 30 2015 4:21 AM

Rick Brannan (Faithlife):

We've gathered a lot of data about systematic theologies (both in Logos and in print but not in Logos … yet). Denominational/traditional affiliation of the author is only one of those items, and it is the one we chose to use as a resource-level filter for this tool.

We've also gathered information on views/systems like dispensationalism. Some systematic theologies come from Calvinist perspectives, others from other perspectives such as unitarianism; others focus on covenantal issues. There is wide variety.

MJ's point about dispensationalism as a system applying to aspects of multiple denominational traditions that overlap was pretty much our perspective as the data was gathered and as we considered organizing principles for the Passage Guide section.

Anyway, we're considering using all the other data about systematic theologies and their authors in some sort of interactive resource down the road, and this information on views/systems like Calvinism, Arminiansm, Dispensationalism, etc., will be utilized there.

MJ's comments notwithstanding, by not classifying Dispensationalist theologians you have made the tool less useful for me.

Within 10 miles of where I sit, I can name Arminian Baptists and Double-Predestination Baptist, and every gradation between. We have Dispensational Baptist and Covenant Amil Baptists, Very Liberal Baptists and KJV Only Baptists. The only common theological position we all hold is Believer's Baptism. Given all that, Baptist is an absolutely useless theological category.

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John Brumett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 30 2015 7:37 AM

Mj;

We have a Reformed category which includes multiple denominations.  Why not a dispensational category?    

Here is a quote from Wickapedia article on Reformed:

The biggest Reformed association is the World Communion of Reformed Churches with more than 80 million members in 211 member denominations around the world.[

I am trying to simply things so that similar theologies can be place in the same categories.

Some theological systems are more easily tied to a particular denomination.  But dispensational theology transcends these categories.   

Example say you have a baseball player from Ohio who plays for the Texas Rangers.  How would you classify him.  The fact that he is from Ohio is not as important as the fact that now he is a Texas Ranger and plays on that team.  

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John Brumett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 30 2015 7:46 AM

MJ. Smith:
So should there be a Princeton Theological Seminary theologies? The Princeton Theology, The Princeton Modernist Theology ..

M.J. You are actually making my point I don't want to further scatter like theologies into many categories but place all the dispensation writers under one category so as a Dispensationist I can use this good tool.  I want to make this more user friendly Big Smile  Right now all the dispensational writers are under 4 different categories. From a practical standpoint these writers have the same theology and should all be under the same category.          

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 30 2015 1:14 PM

We are going to have serious problems meeting everyones' needs because of some very basic differences in experience:

  • those who come from traditions that hold together wide differences / those who split over every small detail
  • those who view theological trends over centuries / those who view theological trends over decades

I want Logos to stick to a classification that is commonly used outside religious circles to give the view from 10,000 feet. Beyond that the user should create their own collections.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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John Brumett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 30 2015 7:04 PM

MJ. Smith:
I want Logos to stick to a classification that is commonly used outside religious circles to give the view from 10,000 feet.

So do I.  I don't think you understand what I am asking.  I am not asking to create additional categories except 1.  Dispensational writers are listed under 4 current categories  Baptist, Independent, Nondenominational and Presbyterian.  I simply want these authors that I mentioned earlier to be moved to one catagory Dispensationalist.  Is that making things more complex? 

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John Brumett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 30 2015 8:04 PM

Here is an example for the book in logos 5 views of sanctification:

We have the Wesylen perspective  which is a category in  logos

We have the Reformed perspective which is a category in logos

We have the Pentecostal perspective which is a category in logos  

We have the Keswick perspective- as far as I know they are no Keswick systematic theologies in Logos

and then the Augustinian-Dispensational perspective by John Walvoord who is currently classifies as Presbyterian    His catrgory as in the book should be Dispensational

His current book in logos is called what we believe.

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 30 2015 9:08 PM

John Brumett:

MJ. Smith:
I want Logos to stick to a classification that is commonly used outside religious circles to give the view from 10,000 feet.

So do I.  I don't think you understand what I am asking.  I am not asking to create additional categories except 1.  Dispensational writers are listed under 4 current categories  Baptist, Independent, Nondenominational and Presbyterian.  I simply want these authors that I mentioned earlier to be moved to one catagory Dispensationalist.  Is that making things more complex? 

I do understand what you want. But when I go to theological sources in my library they are described as having a distinctive eschatology not a complete systematic theology. And those proposing dispensational views call themselves Baptist, Presbyterian, Evangelical, Nondenominational ... they don't ask the Yellow Pages for a Dispensationalist title. To my mind, Restorationist, Plymouth Brethren, Congregationalist, Holiness movement are more complete theological streams.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 30 2015 9:31 PM

MJ. Smith:
I want Logos to stick to a classification that is commonly used outside religious circles to give the view from 10,000 feet.

I am not sure I can agree that this view is most helpful. I'd like to understand how you see the thought expressed in your tag line bearing upon the matter. Aren't theologians so defined inevitably to be found mostly in religious circles?

Is theology really best treated in nonreligiously affiliated institutions and settings?

I am still trying to understand the usefulness of the new Systematic Theologies guide as it is presently constituted. I'm at a disadvantage because I am temporarily unable to update the desktop application to support it.

When the new tool was announced I imagined something different, more topically arranged.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 30 2015 10:09 PM

JAL:

MJ. Smith:
I want Logos to stick to a classification that is commonly used outside religious circles to give the view from 10,000 feet.

I am not sure I can agree that this view is most helpful. I'd like to understand how you see the thought expressed in your tag line bearing upon the matter. Aren't theologians so defined inevitably to be found mostly in religious circles?

. . .

When the new tool was announced I imagined something different, more topically arranged.

As I see the issue, most of us, myself very much included, know "our segment" of theology so well that we can't see the forest for the trees. We want to make distinctions that are important in our corner but often draw a blank stare in other circles. There  are a few other segments that we know well enough to see the forests - often because they are the forests we separated from i.e. we learned our theology in contrast to these forests. The rest is so unknown to us as to be unable to distinguish even basic ecosystems - broad leaf, evergreen, rain .... What Logos is attempting to do is give us a map of the forests - broad strokes that we can quickly learn to understand whether it falls into our tree, forest or ecosystem knowledge.

That is why I am willing to let Eastern Orthodox (Byzantine tradition), Oriental Orthodox (Syriac tradition) and Assyrian Church (Nestorian Syriac) be merged although they are historically distinct and current world events are making us more aware of them and the distinctions. That is why I think the Restorationist need their own category (their theology is very Lockean and hence quite distinctive). It is why I think there needs to be more explicit treatment of the Puritans, Congregationalist and Holiness movements

When Logos announced this I was thinking more along the lines of a history of thought approach. What they have done is a much more manageable and less subjective project although there are some very good computer generated spheres of influence applications which I would love to see in Logos when I trust the underlying data. But then I had different expectations of the reference capability of the concordance - I'd expected the base data for sphere of influence studies.

What Logos is delivering will get me using more of the unfamiliar theological books in my library because it gives me a context (forest level) in which to read snippets.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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