Create Catagory Dispensational in Systematic Theologies Guide

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JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 30 2015 10:22 PM

MJ. Smith:
But when I go to theological sources in my library they are described as having a distinctive eschatology not a complete systematic theology.

Also Wikipedia (emphasis mine):

"The theology of dispensationalism consists of a distinctive eschatological end times perspective, as all dispensationalists hold to premillennialism and most hold to a pretribulation rapture. Dispensationalists believe that the nation of Israel is distinct from the Christian Church, and that God has yet to fulfill his promises to national Israel. These promises include the land promises, which in the future world to come result in a millennial kingdom and Third Temple where Christ, upon his return, will rule the world from Jerusalem for a thousand years. In other areas of theology, dispensationalists hold to a wide range of beliefs within the evangelical and fundamentalist spectrum."

MJ. Smith:
To my mind, Restorationist, Plymouth Brethren, Congregationalist, Holiness movement are more complete theological streams.

I think I agree.

Writing in the following thread has bearing on the present discussion: NEW Dispensational Theology Base Package

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 30 2015 11:25 PM

Okay, it took me a while but I have the solution - which would be very useful but doable for Logos AND would provide the dispensational category. Treat the historical/denominational classification as one way to categorize theologians. Then classify theologians by movement - not all would belong to a particular movement; some would belong to more than one. Example classes

  • dispensationalism
  • fundamentalism
  • liberation theology
  • feminism
  • constructive theology
  • Oxford movement
  • liberal theology
  • neo-orthodoxy
  • process theology
  • apophatic theology
  • pietism ....

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 623
JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 30 2015 11:47 PM

MJ. Smith:
Then classify theologians by movement - not all would belong to a particular movement; some would belong to more than one

At time being I think this arrangement would be more helpful to me. I am currently more interested in comparing the treatment of scripture along this type of classification than I am denominationally.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

Posts 2285
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 31 2015 3:32 AM

JAL:

MJ. Smith:
Then classify theologians by movement - not all would belong to a particular movement; some would belong to more than one

At time being I think this arrangement would be more helpful to me. I am currently more interested in comparing the treatment of scripture along this type of classification than I am denominationally.

Time for me to add my thoughts:  I agree with JAL.  This type of classification is far more helpful to me than denominational classifications could ever be.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 31 2015 11:35 AM

MJ. Smith:
Then classify theologians by movement - not all would belong to a particular movement; some would belong to more than one. Example classes

A much better arrangement than the present one.

MJ. Smith:
fundamentalism

I trust that you mean the original Biblical Fundamentalism, as expressed in The Fundamentals—rather then the modern Cultural Fundamentalism based on tradition and preacher peer pressure.

Posts 1216
Matt Hamrick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 31 2015 11:56 AM

It amazes me there is pressure now for Dispensational stuff, yet John Nelson Darby's collected works sits stagnant for 3 years. He is the father of dispensation is he not? Yet, there are no bids on the Collected Work of John Nelson Darby.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 31 2015 6:28 PM

JAL:

MJ. Smith:
Then classify theologians by movement - not all would belong to a particular movement; some would belong to more than one

At time being I think this arrangement would be more helpful to me. I am currently more interested in comparing the treatment of scripture along this type of classification than I am denominationally.

I think we have finally gotten to the root of the problem that Logos faces -- several of the categories I offered I would normally associate with a form of Bible criticism rather than theology. When I would apply them to theology it would rarely be systematic theology  -- exceptions: Karl Barth as neo-orthodox, Teilhard de Chardin as process theology ...

We have put Logos in a curious situation - asking that the "Systematic Theologies" section of the Passage Guide be arrangable by Bible Criticism categories more appropriate to commentaries or Bible monographs.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 1 2015 1:53 AM

Rick, I was looking through my collection and what is available in Logos that I don't own. I would REALLY, REALLY like to hasve two similar sections - one for catechisms and one for creeds and confessions. I also noted that there are several documents in the Early American History collection that would belong in these categories. As Logos does not thoroughly tag these mass purchase items, thought needs to be given to (a) either include them or (b) provide an easy way for the users to add them.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3350
Whyndell Grizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 1 2015 2:51 AM

MJ. Smith:

Okay, it took me a while but I have the solution - which would be very useful but doable for Logos AND would provide the dispensational category. Treat the historical/denominational classification as one way to categorize theologians. Then classify theologians by movement - not all would belong to a particular movement; some would belong to more than one. Example classes

  • dispensationalism
  • fundamentalism
  • liberation theology
  • feminism
  • constructive theology
  • Oxford movement
  • liberal theology
  • neo-orthodoxy
  • process theology
  • apophatic theology
  • pietism ....

I would rather see these worked in as a sub-category under the present scheme of things.

Posts 623
JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 1 2015 8:44 AM

I have a few days off starting tomorrow and am eager to get my desktop configured with this new tool so I may better assess the benefit.

MJ. Smith:
We have put Logos in a curious situation - asking that the "Systematic Theologies" section of the Passage Guide be arrangable by Bible Criticism categories more appropriate to commentaries or Bible monographs.

When I first saw the Systematic Theologies Guide mentioned I imagined it would be arranged along the generally recognized departments of systematic theology. Wikipedia proposes the following Categories:

A topical arrangement is suggested by the summary paragraph in the Contemporary usage section of the same Wikipedia article.

"In all three senses, Christian systematic theology will often touch on some or all of the following topics: Godtrinitarianismrevelationcreation and divine providencetheodicytheological anthropologyChristologysoteriology,ecclesiologyeschatology, Israelology, Bibliology, hermeneuticssacrament, pneumatology, Christian life, Heaven, and interfaith statements on other religions."

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

Posts 9205
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JAL:
When I first saw the Systematic Theologies Guide mentioned I imagined it would be arranged along the generally recognized departments of systematic theology.

You can see this view by clicking "Subject" in the upper-right. (It's then subdivided by denomination.)

Posts 623
JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 1 2015 11:09 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
You can see this view by clicking "Subject" in the upper-right. (It's then subdivided by denomination.)

Thanks Bradley. FWIW - I had been holding back from posting because I don't currently have access to the tool and thus my awareness is limited to what I see in the forum discussions.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

Posts 612
John Brumett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 4 2015 4:26 AM

Please move John Walvoord and his book "What We Believe" to the non-denominational category.

Dr. Walvoord has been attending Bible Churches in the Dallas, TX area since the 1950's. He attended Northwest Bible Church which is non-denominational and then later Reinhardt Bible Church which is non-denominational.  His book "What We Believe" was written in 1990 nearly 40 years after he left the Presbyterian Church.  I believe the criteria of the classification is the author's denominational association at the time of writing.  Presbyterians have distanced themselves from Dispensational Teaching since the 1940's because of Dispensation strong contrast between law and grace.  

Here is a quote from Dr. Walvoord's autobiography:

What had been happening in regard to fundamentalism and dispensationalism in the Presbyterian Church up to the 1950s brought about a turning point in my life. It was very personal, yet it made me realized the confusion about prophetic issues and the teachings of dispensationalism. In the 1930s and 1940s the leaders in the southern Presbyterian denomination never confront me or call me a heretic as a result of my dispensationalism, although they were progressively turning against that view. While a pastor in the Rosen Heights church, I was a member of the Fort Worth Presbytery. By 1950, I had become heavily involved with the seminary and decided to move to Dallas. But the Presbytery in Dallas didn't like the school and ruled that DTS doctrinal focus wasn't acceptable to their way of thinking. Because I had no intention of leaving the school, I would have to resign from membership in the Presbytery. I asked for a letter of transfer to the independent fundamental churches of America. But instead of giving me that letter, the Presbytery simply struck my name from the role and refused to issue the document as they normally did for transferring pastors.  They tried to get me upset, but I wouldn't budge or be intimidated. They even offered me the pastorate of a large Presbyterian Church in another area if I would leave the seminary. This confusion turmoil went on for a year, but they finally gave in and send a letter of dismissal with approval. Whether I was Presbyterian in Church government didn't make that much difference because, after all, the school (Dallas Theological Seminary) wasn't Presbyterian. 

Blessed Hope The Autobiography of John F. Walvoord with Mal Couch AMG Publishers, 2001  page 81-82

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 4 2015 5:53 AM

John Brumett:
Please move John Walvoord and his book "What We Believe" to the non-denominational category.

Thanks for the note, John. I've made sure that those doing the classification are aware of this post.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 612
John Brumett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 5 2015 5:11 AM

Rick Brannan (Faithlife):
Thanks for the note, John. I've made sure that those doing the classification are aware of this post.

Thanks Rick Smile

Posts 612
John Brumett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 5 2015 5:21 AM

Please move Dr. Lightener from the Baptist category to the non-denominational category.  His theology is clearly Dispensational.  

 I personally sat under Dr. Lightner's teaching at Dallas Theological Seminary and he has taught many times at the Bible Church that I Pastor in the Dallas area.  While Dr. Lightner  attended a Baptist School before attending Dallas Theological Seminary in the mid to late 60's. when he arrived on the faculty at DTS he became a member of Mesquite Bible Church which is non-denominational and dispensational.

Most Bible Church in the Dallas Fort-Worth area we started by individuals from DTS.  These churches are nondenominational and dispensational.     

   

Posts 612
John Brumett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 5 2015 5:31 AM

Dr. John Feinberg and Dr. Paul Feinberg's Theology is Dispensational.  They have both spoken at the Pre-Trib Study group which is an organization created for the defense of the Pre-Trib Rapture and Dispensationalism.

Here is a link to their papers presented at this conference:

http://www.pre-trib.org/articles

 

Dr. John Feinberg

Dr. Paul Feinberg

Posts 485
elnwood | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 5 2015 10:35 AM

I think that if you're going to classify a PERSON by their denominational background, you can attach what denomination they are a part of (Baptist, Presbyterian, Anglican, etc.).

But if you're going to classify SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGIES, you need a different schema altogether, and "dispensational" is a necessary category.

For example, when Grudem categorizes systematic theologies, he uses the following: 1. Anglican (Episcopalian), 2. Arminian (Wesleyan or Methodist), 3. Baptist, 4. Dispensational, 5. Lutheran, 6. Reformed (or Presbyterian), 7. Renewal (or charismatic/Pentecostal), 8. Roman Catholic: Traditional, and 9. Roman Catholic: Post-Vatican II.

The Presbyterian Church in the United States passed a report in 1944 denouncing dispensationalism, and that was the beginning of the end of dispensationalism in Presbyterianism. There are (almost?) no dispensationalist theologians in Presbyterianism today. So classifying Chafer or Walvoord's Systematic works as "Presbyterian," though they were at one time, is clearly unhelpful.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 5 2015 12:48 PM

elnwood:

For example, when Grudem categorizes systematic theologies, he uses the following: 1. Anglican (Episcopalian), 2. Arminian (Wesleyan or Methodist), 3. Baptist, 4. Dispensational, 5. Lutheran, 6. Reformed (or Presbyterian), 7. Renewal (or charismatic/Pentecostal), 8. Roman Catholic: Traditional, and 9. Roman Catholic: Post-Vatican II.

I certainly would not trust Grudem on this topic if he thinks there are two Roman Catholic theologies - it implies a very short perspective on theological history and an American bias towards division.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 4180
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 5 2015 2:05 PM

I counted myself as a dispensationalist for a time, and in truth, I am probably still largely dispensational in my eschatology. However I am wandering through covenant theology at the moment and decidedly calvinistic (though perhaps more in line with calvins teachings than what is put out as calvinism today) in my soteriology.

That said - should I ever write a book, you'd have a hard time classifying me as anything concrete.

Calvinistic Covenant Dispensationalst? Check.

The point being that people and their systematic beliefs are seldom ever as cleanly cut as we would like. Most people don't fit neatly into a single box.

One can be baptist, and reformed (in their soteriology). One can be baptist, reformed (in their soteriology), and charismatic (third wave I'd suspect) in their pneumatology. One can be Baptist, Reformed, Charismatic, and also call themselves a dispensationalist.

This kind of a la carte theology is not all bad, just hard to quantify.

A wise man once told me that if you take all of one mans theology, you've probably got some pretty serious errors. But if you take ALL of the bible, and then a little of this theology (where it makes sense to do so) and a little of that theologians theology, and compile your own "mugwump" view you'll be better off.

I see denominational headings first, followed by theological positions second. Though the theological positions are probably both more interesting and more difficult to nail down.

L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

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