New Features: Narrative Character Maps (Vol 2)
What is it?
Narrative Character Maps present the Bible’s familiar story arcs with a new visual perspective that makes sense of complex interweaving narratives. Color-coded character lines elegantly present the geographic location of key players through time.
How does it work?
Trace the missionary journey’s of Paul and other early church leaders in the first century. Rediscover the narrative of Ruth, Naomi, Boaz, and Orpah with a vibrant display of God’s faithfulness. Easily keep track of David’s life as it connects with the lives of Saul, Jonathan, Absalom, and other characters. The important events in each narrative link to the Bible Factbook—where you’ll find family trees, maps, and other media drawn from your digital library. Narrative Character Maps revitalize your understanding of familiar Bible stories. Volume 2 adds maps of Abraham, Isaac and the events depicted in 1 Samuel.
Comments
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Are there any video tutorials that explain how to use/read these Narrative Character Maps? I have yet to spend much time in them do to other study restrictions, but they appear to be very helpful on a macro level.
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There is some information about how to read them at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/92818/643948.aspx#643948
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Really disappointed to see that this isn't being rolled out as an update to that Narrative Character Maps in Logos 6! I bought the upgrade in part because of the exciting new features, and found that Narrative Character Maps had a paltry 5 maps for the entire Bible.
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Graham Criddle said:
There is some information about how to read them at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/92818/643948.aspx#643948
Thanks Graham!
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Whenever I use these (both the new ones and the L6 ones), I get the impression that the UI isn't really finished, and maybe is even "broken" - for example, when I hover over the map, grey columns appear. I'm guessing each of those is supposed to represent one event. Occasionally, clicking on those will select an event on the bottom pane and show that to me. More often, clicking does nothing. And, more often still, clicking on one of the grey bars just jumps the map around somewhat randomly, oftentimes even moving the map off the screen, and then bringing it back, but not selecting an event. Very strange.
I would love to see those navigation issues fixed, and then a clearer representation of the events and how they correspond to the map. For example, a simple thing that could help would be to display a popup of the corresponding event name as you hover your mouse over the map, and/or show some sort of a timeline of events on the bottom that corresponds to the map.
The one part of the UI that does work well is the Prev and Next buttons. Using the Maps with those is helpful.
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Fr Devin Roza said:
when I hover over the map, grey columns appear. I'm guessing each of those is supposed to represent one event. Occasionally, clicking on those will select an event on the bottom pane and show that to me. More often, clicking does nothing. And, more often still, clicking on one of the grey bars just jumps the map around somewhat randomly, oftentimes even moving the map off the screen, and then bringing it back, but not selecting an event. Very strange.
I noticed that too and thought it was user error. Guess not [;)]
Logos 10 | Dell Inspiron 7373 | Windows 11 Pro 64, i7, 16GB, SSD | iPhone 13 Pro Max
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I love these charts.
Fr Devin Roza said:when I hover over the map, grey columns appear. I'm guessing each of those is supposed to represent one event. Occasionally, clicking on those will select an event on the bottom pane and show that to me. More often, clicking does nothing.
I strongly agree that this doesn't work well. You have to click on a grey event bar, in a blank space, which can sometimes be difficult in busy sections. I wish the bar was extended or that there was a bordering bar along the top or bottom that highlighted as you moved the mouse along it. Also, wish the events in the bottom pane highlighted as the accompanying event bar in the chart was highlighted.
Fr Devin Roza said:And, more often still, clicking on one of the grey bars just jumps the map around somewhat randomly, oftentimes even moving the map off the screen, and then bringing it back, but not selecting an event.
I have not seen this behavior.
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Randy W. Sims said:
I wish the bar was extended or that there was a bordering bar along the top or bottom that highlighted as you moved the mouse along it. Also, wish the events in the bottom pane highlighted as the accompanying event bar in the chart was highlighted.
[Y]
Logos 10 | Dell Inspiron 7373 | Windows 11 Pro 64, i7, 16GB, SSD | iPhone 13 Pro Max
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Tim Bahula said:
Really disappointed to see that this isn't being rolled out as an update to that Narrative Character Maps in Logos 6!
I am a Logos Now subscriber, but I do agree with this. I think Faithlife is being a little to aggressive in moving features to Logos Now in order to provide value to that product. Most of the content for existing features should go to the general release. Or at least do a staged rollout: release to Logos now and then after a cycle or two roll it out in the general release.
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Randy W. Sims said:Tim Bahula said:
Really disappointed to see that this isn't being rolled out as an update to that Narrative Character Maps in Logos 6!
I am a Logos Now subscriber, but I do agree with this. I think Faithlife is being a little to aggressive in moving features to Logos Now in order to provide value to that product. Most of the content for existing features should go to the general release. Or at least do a staged rollout: release to Logos now and then after a cycle or two roll it out in the general release.
There's been no official announcement that there will be a Logos/Verbum 7, but they have announced that Logos Now is "early access" to features as they are being developed. So, supposing there will be a v7, these features, resources, etc. would almost all be the new features in v7. As I understand it, Logos Now is just getting early access to v7, as it's developed.
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Fr Devin Roza said:
There's been no official announcement that there will be a Logos/Verbum 7, but they have announced that Logos Now is "early access" to features as they are being developed. So, supposing there will be a v7, these features, resources, etc. would almost all be the new features in v7. As I understand it, Logos Now is just getting early access to v7, as it's developed.
The problem is that doubt has been cast over these remarks, because what is been said is that some but not all features will be included in Logos 7, plus remarks have been made that content based features could stay in subscription mode. The 'may's' and the 'might's' effectively eliminate confidence that any desired feature will be in Logos 7 - one day.
IMHO it's time for Faithlife to be more definitive about this, since features are out and people have real questions that are remaining unanswered. What we have now is not very transparent. If for example updates to the data in Narrative Character Maps was definitely announced as being in the next major release, then this issue goes away - you want it now, get Logos Now, Otherwise, wait until Logos 7. If it was announced they would NOT be in the next major release, than what is there now is a teaser to subscription purchase - if you like it, subscribe. Without more definition, no one knows.
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Fr Devin Roza said:
There's been no official announcement that there will be a Logos/Verbum 7, but they have announced that Logos Now is "early access" to features as they are being developed. So, supposing there will be a v7, these features, resources, etc. would almost all be the new features in v7. As I understand it, Logos Now is just getting early access to v7, as it's developed.
But should I have to wait until Logos 7... or pay a subscription for a Logos 6 feature that shipped with a bare minimum of content?
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Tim,
I agree with you! The "bare minimum of content" is a good description. I guess I just assumed when I first saw it that Logos would add more filler to it as part of L6.
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Randy W. Sims said:Tim Bahula said:
Really disappointed to see that this isn't being rolled out as an update to that Narrative Character Maps in Logos 6!
I am a Logos Now subscriber, but I do agree with this. I think Faithlife is being a little to aggressive in moving features to Logos Now in order to provide value to that product. Most of the content for existing features should go to the general release. Or at least do a staged rollout: release to Logos now and then after a cycle or two roll it out in the general release.
The key thing to keep in mind is that we didn't include future updates as part of the Logos 6 product description. We always specify when future updates will be included for free. Without that explicit statement, you shouldn't expect it. Updates to Atlas were included in Logos 6.
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Phil,
It never occurred to me that Logos had to specifiy to add more content to a feature that was part of an update. I should have looked for that and didn't. My bad. But, my assumption was based on an expectation of Logos putting out content as per a standard of excellence. Again, my own thinking. I no longer expect that standard. Thanks for the explanation.
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
The key thing to keep in mind is that we didn't include future updates as part of the Logos 6 product description. We always specify when future updates will be included for free. Without that explicit statement, you shouldn't expect it. Updates to Atlas were included in Logos 6.
Phil, That is a weak argument, one that seems to be a reversal of the long-standing Logos approach. As recently as May 2015, the Logos Blog proclaimed:
Whenever a resource you own is updated, you’ll get that new content—for free—so your Logos library is always becoming more valuable and staying up to date with the latest improvements. —Resource Updates: May 2015
I guess what you are telling us is that Narrative Character Maps is not a resource and I shouldn't have expected it to be updated. I could accept that more readily if weren't for the paucity of narrative character maps released with Logos 6 or if the description then had said something like, "This is a super-cool way of visualizing the Bible, but it only includes 6 visualizations." Even now, the product description leaves too much to the imagination:
Narrative Character Maps present the Bible’s familiar story arcs with a new visual perspective that makes sense of complex interweaving narratives. Color coded character lines elegantly present the geographic location of key players through time.
From that description, you wouldn't expect that you get just 6 of them!
Further, the product description explicitly states that it includes "the missionary journey’s of Paul". That was not included in the Logos 6 release. Was it not natural to assume that updates would be forthcoming?
The bad taste in my mouth hasn't gone away.
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Juanita said:
It never occurred to me that Logos had to specifiy to add more content to a feature that was part of an update.
Agreed.
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Tim Bahula said:
From that description, you wouldn't expect that you get just 6 of them!
Ooops, just 5 of them! I was confusing Narrative Character Maps with Before & After... another complaint!
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Tim Bahula said:Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
The key thing to keep in mind is that we didn't include future updates as part of the Logos 6 product description. We always specify when future updates will be included for free. Without that explicit statement, you shouldn't expect it. Updates to Atlas were included in Logos 6.
Phil, That is a weak argument, one that seems to be a reversal of the long-standing Logos approach. As recently as May 2015, the Logos Blog proclaimed:
Whenever a resource you own is updated, you’ll get that new content—for free—so your Logos library is always becoming more valuable and staying up to date with the latest improvements. —Resource Updates: May 2015
This isn't an argument. It's a statement of fact.
It's important to distinguish between a traditional print-book-turned digital resource and an interactive resource or media collection. It's also important to define update. In the case of a typical text-based resource, when we add new links, fix typos, add support for new datatypes, etc., you get those updates for free. That's always been the case, and we have no plans of deviating from that.
In the case of an open-ended resource like Atlas maps, Before and After, Narrative Character Maps, etc., you shouldn't expect that you'll continue to get all new content as part of your original purchase, unless we specify that future content will be included, as we did with Atlas. I understand why you'd think that. And I'm not faulting you for doing so. I'm just explaining our thinking and why we're treating this kind of content and these kinds of "updates" differently.
Tim Bahula said:
I guess what you are telling us is that Narrative Character Maps is not a resource and I shouldn't have expected it to be updated.
Narrative Character Maps, vol. 1 is a resource, and Narrative Character Maps, vol. 2 is a new resource. You will get any updates we make to vol. 1 for free.
Tim Bahula said:I could accept that more readily if weren't for the paucity of narrative character maps released with Logos 6 or if the description then had said something like, "This is a super-cool way of visualizing the Bible, but it only includes 6 visualizations." Even now, the product description leaves too much to the imagination:
Narrative Character Maps present the Bible’s familiar story arcs with a new visual perspective that makes sense of complex interweaving narratives. Color coded character lines elegantly present the geographic location of key players through time.
From that description, you wouldn't expect that you get just 6 of them!
I agree that the description should be more specific. I've asked the team to better quantify these kinds of products to properly set user expectations for what they include. I'm sorry the description was vague.
Tim Bahula said:Further, the product description explicitly states that it includes "the missionary journey’s of Paul". That was not included in the Logos 6 release. Was it not natural to assume that updates would be forthcoming?
I'll look into this. It's completely reasonable to expect that the product includes what it describes!
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Tim Bahula said:Juanita said:
It never occurred to me that Logos had to specifiy to add more content to a feature that was part of an update.
Agreed.
Just to be clear. I know that these additions take a great deal of time and money to develop, and I fully respect that. These additions are valuable and worth paying for. My question was over whether that cost was included in the purchase of L6 either explicitly in the product description or implicitly because of the perceived incompleteness of the feature set as released. I believed that, in this case, it was implied and assumed that, like the maps, additions would available to all. It's been fairly standard for partial data sets and resources to be released with updates to follow so it seemed a natural assumption... Not a judgement, just my viewpoint from my shady memory.
EDIT: I wrote this before seeing Phil's response above. I think that post helps clarify things.
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
We always specify when future updates will be included for free. Without that explicit statement, you shouldn't expect it.
When I subscribed to Logos Now, I thought that the reasoning was so I can get early access to new tools, not to maintain or update the ones that I have. Ever since I've owned Logos, we had the promise (sometimes unwritten assurances) that things in the program would be updated when an update was available.
This, to me, is a big change and there should have been an explicit warning when Logos 6 was released saying that things have changed. Hearing Faithlife say "we didn't promise something in Logos 6 that had been standard practice in previous versions, so you shouldn't expect it" saddens me. I will surely read the fine print in the future and make purchases with a lot more caution and apprehension.
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Maybe what isn't being said is that (without the Logos Now option) these new datasets would NOT have been released AT ALL until Logos 7. Certainly from all I've read, FL never planned to release them to Logos 6 users. We would simply NOT HAVE KNOWN they existed.
You can complain, but FL DID NOT promise to me or anyone else extra diagrams, charts, interactives, etc. when they offered me Logos 6. Please show me if I missed that announcement. Besides, for me Logos 6 was such a different sort of release that I knew it would be handled differently. We were paying for data rather than tools (searches, guides, etc.) Others may not have been thinking that way, but the fact remains that no promises were broken, and I, for one, had no expectations of more free data.
In the meantime Logos has followed through on tagging lots more resources to be useful in the Journals and Sermons sections of the Guides. They've also shipped updates to a number of datasets. Undoubtedly they could point out much more that all Logos 6 users have received since L6 was released.
It seems to me that the difference here is not (a) FL holds back data that they would have given us without Logos Now, but (b) FL gives us the opportunity to use data we would otherwise not have seen for a long time as they develop it. This privilege costs us $90 a year, and that $90 includes other benefits (some yet to be announced) and it helps FL do more in development that they would have otherwise been able to do.
Logos Now is an adjustment in our thinking, but I can't accuse FL of using it to bilk me or other users of data they would have otherwise had.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Rick said:Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
We always specify when future updates will be included for free. Without that explicit statement, you shouldn't expect it.
When I subscribed to Logos Now, I thought that the reasoning was so I can get early access to new tools, not to maintain or update the ones that I have. Ever since I've owned Logos, we had the promise (sometimes unwritten assurances) that things in the program would be updated when an update was available.
This, to me, is a big change and there should have been an explicit warning when Logos 6 was released saying that things have changed. Hearing Faithlife say "we didn't promise something in Logos 6 that had been standard practice in previous versions, so you shouldn't expect it" saddens me. I will surely read the fine print in the future and make purchases with a lot more caution and apprehension.
Logos Now provides early access to new features, but also access to new datasets and media and interactive content.
Nothing has changed. We typically don't add brand new content to base packages that wasn't explicitly promised in the product description at the point of sale. New content has always been sold separately. I think the real confusion here is around what constitues an update to an existing resource and what constitutes new content. See my earlier post on why resource updates and new content creation are not the same thing.
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
I think the real confusion here is around what constitues an update to an existing resource and what consistutes new content.
I think part of the confusion on the part of the user is overlooking the fact that these resource are labeled as new content, as Phil has pointed out. When Logos 6 was purchased it included Narrative Character Maps (vol. 1) & Before and After: Biblical Sites (vol. 1). However, the newly release content, while functioning within the same window as the existing volume(s), is actually a distinct volume(s) from the former (Narrative Character Maps, vol. 2 and Before and After: Biblical Sites, vol. 2)
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:Tim Bahula said:
Further, the product description explicitly states that it includes "the missionary journey’s of Paul". That was not included in the Logos 6 release. Was it not natural to assume that updates would be forthcoming?
I'll look into this. It's completely reasonable to expect that the product includes what it describes!
We'll make sure we deliver on what was promised.Hi Phil, I realize this thread is specifically about the Narrative Character Maps, but I suspect a lot of the same arguments might be made about the Before and After Update as well. One thing that may be worth looking into as well is the initial description of the Before and After feature lists "a variety of views of Jerusalem" in addition to the other 5 images. I'm not sure what Logos has planned for the future, but if it involves releasing Before and After images to Logos Now and not Logos 6 users, there might be some similar frustrations. Just wanted to make your team aware of it so you can either edit the initial description or honor it.
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At the risk of descending into flaming...
Mark Smith said:Maybe what isn't being said is that (without the Logos Now option) these new datasets would NOT have been released AT ALL until Logos 7. Certainly from all I've read, FL never planned to release them to Logos 6 users. We would simply NOT HAVE KNOWN they existed.
Please do not misunderstand. I am not asking that new datasets such as Systematic Theology Cross Reference be made freely available. You are right, that wasn't part of the Logos 6 deal. I have no problem if those kinds of things are only on Logos Now.
However, Narrative Character Maps was one of the shiny new features of Logos 6. At the time it arrived I was disappointed. Only 5 of them.
Mark Smith said:You can complain, but FL DID NOT promise to me or anyone else extra diagrams, charts, interactives, etc. when they offered me Logos 6. Please show me if I missed that announcement. Besides, for me Logos 6 was such a different sort of release that I knew it would be handled differently. We were paying for data rather than tools (searches, guides, etc.) Others may not have been thinking that way, but the fact remains that no promises were broken, and I, for one, had no expectations of more free data.
Should it surprise anyone at Faithlife that users would reasonably conclude there would be more than 5 Narrative Character Maps eventually. Did Faithlife explicitly promise that we would receive them for free? No, they did not. However, they were less than clear in their marketing about what was actually available when Logos 6 shipped. That's what makes me upset.
Logos has created a culture of expectation of these updates over the years. There have been several resources that have shipped incomplete with the promise that users would receive the complete product later. Even today the Logos 6 website indicates that my purchase of Logos 6 Platinum over six(!) months ago isn't complete (still missing 4 Bibles and 3 sets of maps):
* Your purchase includes this resource, which isn’t available yet. The resource will automatically download to Logos once it’s available.
Further, for years Logos has explicitly stated that resource updates are free, but now throws in that purchasers need to check the fine print. This is not the way to win customer loyalty.
Mark Smith said:Logos Now is an adjustment in our thinking, but I can't accuse FL of using it to bilk me or other users of data they would have otherwise had.
I understand that models of publishing are changing... er, have changed. I don't have a problem with that. However, it seems to me that the rules of the game changed without all of the players being told. I do have a problem with that. It's even worse to be told that it's my fault for not reading something that isn't even there.
For the record, as I pointed out elsewhere, when shipped and even as of today, the Narrative Character Maps description does not include a (Vol 1) anywhere and does explicitly state that it includes Paul's missionary journeys.
Trace the missionary journey’s of Paul and other early church leaders in the first century.
And so I do feel bilked.
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Ryan B said:
Hi Phil, I realize this thread is specifically about the Narrative Character Maps, but I suspect a lot of the same arguments might be made about the Before and After Update as well. One thing that may be worth looking into as well is the initial description of the Before and After feature lists "a variety of views of Jerusalem" in addition to the other 5 images. I'm not sure what Logos has planned for the future, but if it involves releasing Before and After images to Logos Now and not Logos 6 users, there might be some similar frustrations.
This is my complaint with both Narrative Character Maps and Before and After. However, I would argue that a wide-range of biblical narrative character maps and before and after images is implicit in both of these product descriptions. That is, that the lists are representative not exhaustive.
Ryan B said:Just wanted to make your team aware of it so you can either edit the initial description or honor it.
I think that it would call Faithlife's integrity into question if they were edit it rather than honor it! Oh wait, it has already been edited!!
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John Kight said:
When Logos 6 was purchased it included Narrative Character Maps (vol. 1) & Before and After: Biblical Sites (vol. 1). However, the newly release content, while functioning within the same window as the existing volume(s), is actually a distinct volume(s) from the former (Narrative Character Maps, vol. 2 and Before and After: Biblical Sites, vol. 2)
When Logos 6 was released neither the Narrative Character Maps or the Before and After were labelled as Volume 1. In fact, as of now, the original release of Narrative Character Maps and Before and After are not labelled as Volume 1!
Faithlife changed the rules and didn't tell the users. I suppose that's their prerogative, but it doesn't build customer loyalty.
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Part 2 of Acts (the missionary journeys) is under development. I completed a giant spreadsheet for it several months ago, and I understand that someone is now working on the graphical layout. It's a fairly large undertaking and so I have no idea when it will be released.
But given the description of the product you quoted, I expect it will be released to Logos 6 customers; though technically, I don't speak for the company, but Bob is pretty good about doing the right thing.
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Tim Bahula said:
I think that it would call Faithlife's integrity into question if they were edit it rather than honor it! Oh wait, it has already been edited!!
At least as of me writing this note, the last time that post was edited was over 6 months ago, on October 27th, 2014, and the text, "a variety of views of Jerusalem", is still there:
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