Need help tagging a word in a PB

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jul 7 2015 3:32 PM

Here's what I'm seeing-

What syntax do I need to add to the docx file so the word comes up on right-click where I can open a lexicon? Or do I need to simply hyperlink the word to an entry in one of them and forget the right-click menu?

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 7 2015 3:33 PM

How have you entered the Greek text in Word? Are you using a Unicode font?

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 7 2015 3:38 PM

Mark Barnes:

How have you entered the Greek text in Word? Are you using a Unicode font?

I used Symbol. It's the only one I know of on my list.  What are the Unicode Gk fonts called?

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 7 2015 3:44 PM

Doc B:
I used Symbol. It's the only one I know of on my list.  What are the Unicode Gk fonts called?

That's why it doesn't work. You need to use Unicode. There are several choices. Looking at the Greek font choices in Logos' Program Settings will give you the names of many, which you can then download from: https://www.logos.com/support/logos6/windows/missing-fonts

Personally I always use Gentium. That's because both the Greek and the Roman characters look good in that font, so you don't have to keep switching fonts to use Greek. You can just use the same font for all the text in whatever language.

You should probably also read this, which will help you to type in Greek/Hebrew: http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/unicode 

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2015 8:25 AM

Mark Barnes:

OK, I downloaded these, but they show up in the Control Panel in English only.

???

Fonts shown installed in CP-

Preview (in CP) of Gentium-

...and I checked in MS Word...they don't show in Gk or Hebr.

???????????????????????

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 2811
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2015 8:28 AM

Here's more info...SS showing SBL greek applied in Word, but not working-

...but it is showing the correct font (rather, the font correctly) in the dropdown list-

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2015 8:36 AM

Doc B,

this is the way Unicode works. In 'ye olden times' before Unicode, Greek etc fonts worked with substitution: a became alpha, b beta etc. Unicode is much smarter (but it takes some more characters than ASCII to work). A is a different character than alpha, but they have a defined place for alpha, beta, gamma in Unicode. Thus e.g. one font, Microsoft's Times New Roman or SBL's BibLit can show Greek, Hebrew, Latin/English (with numerous diacritics) etc.  

Just changing the font of a pre-Unicode document will not do, you will need to use a Unicode Converter (one came with Libronix!) to change these documents.

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2015 8:37 AM

NB.Mick:
Just changing the font of a pre-Unicode document will not do, you will need to use a Unicode Converter (one came with Libronix!) to change these documents.

Lost me.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 9964
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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2015 9:07 AM

Doc B:

NB.Mick:
Just changing the font of a pre-Unicode document will not do, you will need to use a Unicode Converter (one came with Libronix!) to change these documents.

Lost me.

The professor who wrote your document typed "logos" on his keyboard and it looked "logos" in his English font (say Times New Roman). Then he applied a non-unicode font like Graeca or Teknia and what he wrote now looked like λογος  but in reality the characters are still Latin l, latin o, latin g... the point is that those fonts have the same small character map as ASCII and have only Greek or only Hebrew....

A Unicode font will have Latin characters and Greek characters at different places in the character map, so when you take such a document and apply the font formatting, it will read logos. A converter program however will see a Greek formatted word and replace the characters with the real Unicode λογος    

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2015 10:54 AM

NB.Mick:
A Unicode font will have Latin characters and Greek characters at different places in the character map, so when you take such a document and apply the font formatting, it will read logos. A converter program however will see a Greek formatted word and replace the characters with the real Unicode λογος    

I understand the idea now.

Still have no clue how to DO it.

Maybe PBs aren't for me (if they have Gk/Hb in them).

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 13343
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2015 1:32 PM

I mentioned this earlier, which will help you to type in Greek/Hebrew: http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/unicode

You don't have to learn anything specific for personal books, Unicode applies everywhere. And there's nothing difficult to learn, to be honest. Your problem is that you need to 'unlearn' the old way of doing it, which was phased out at least 10 years ago.

At the risk of over simplifying, in the old days, computers were limited to 256 different characters, which made it impossible to type in multiple languages. So to work around that, fonts were created that faked other languages. So with these fonts, you typed a letter 'a' on your keyboard, but the font displayed a Greek alpha character. But your computer didn't know it was an alpha, it thought it was an 'a', it's just that the font displayed an alpha.

There's all sorts of problems with that approach. Spellcheck won't work (because although your screen displays ελωι ελωι λεμα σαβαχθανι, your word processor thinks you've typed ELWI ELWI LEMA SABAXQANI). When you sent documents to someone else, if they don't have your font, they'll look like gibberish. And if you have a name like Shâron (my wife's name), you have to change the font just to type her name! And so on..

But with unicode, when you type an α, your computer knows you're typing an α. It doesn't matter what font you use (so long as it includes Greek characters in it). Fonts can have thousands of characters, and therefore support multiple languages. Spellcheck works. Copy/paste works. Font-substitution works (your computer will choose a font that does support an α, even if you don't have exactly the same fonts as someone else).

But there's a problem to this approach. You want to type an α, but your keyboard doesn't have an α character on it. You could go out and buy a Greek keyboard. But that's expensive. So most people cheat. We tell Windows/Mac OS that we do have a Ancient Greek keyboard, even though we don't. And we remember that on an Ancient Greek keyboard, the α character is in the place that an 'a' is on an standard QWERTY keyboard. So when we type in Greek, we switch to a Greek keyboard, type a few Greek characters, then switch back to a standard keyboard.

In practice, it's not much different to switching fonts to type in Greek. But what's happening behind the scenes is completely different. You're still typing ELWI ELWI, but this time your computer knows it's Greek, and doesn't think it's badly spelt English.

All of this (including how to set up Greek/Hebrew keyboards) is explained in the page I linked to, but do come back if you have specific questions.

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M G Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2015 9:36 AM

There is one further necessary step in formatting the docx file which will be used to compile the PB in order for Doc B's original request to work.

Any words in Greek, Hebrew or Latin etc., that you wish to look up in the appropriate lexicon must be marked as being in that langauge. To do this, with your docx file open in Word, look at the bar at the very bottom of the screen. It will typically have the page number, the wordcount and the language. This last entry will usually be set to English (U.K.) or English (U.S.). To change the language setting for the word or phrase you wish to change then highlight that word or phrase and then click the language button at the bottom (where it says English (U.K.) or whatever). This first time you seek to change the language after opening Word it seems to take a while for the dialogue box to open. In the dialogue box then choose the language you wish to select for the the highlighted word or phrase. [Once you have chosen a language once it joins the other languages you have previously chosen at the top of the list so making choosing it more convenient thereafter.]

In order to test that this was necessary (and that all the language marking I had been doing wasn't a waste of time!!) I ran a test. I compiled a PB which contained two docx files. The first contained words or phrases I had marked as being in Greek or Latin as explained above. The second docx file was a copy of the first but I edited it in Word to make all of the text in language English (U.K.). Note this did not affect the appearance of the words in Greek since I was using Times Roman, a unicode font, as other have already explained.

In the compiled PB right-clicking on a Greek or Latin word brought up a dialogue box where looking the word up in my Greek or Latin lexicons was one of the options. NOTE: I had to scroll down to see my listed lexicons. NOTE 2: Some words did not offer a lexicon lookup. I assume because they were not found in the lexicons in the form I was searching. NOTE 3: Double clicking any word opens your highest ranking lexicon/dictionary in that language, again, if the word is found.

In the part of the compiled PB where the language had been set to English then right clicking NEVER brought up the option to look up a lexicon. The word was not marked as Greek or Latin in the docx and so was not identified as Greek or Latin in the PB.

FInally, let me mention that I often find that a word in Hebrew is marked as being in Hebrew language; however, words in Greek or Latin are NEVER marked as such. You have to go through your docx and highlight and mark each word or phrase as necessary.

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