Sell me Logos 7 today!

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This post has 221 Replies | 12 Followers

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 27 2015 7:11 PM

Bob,

Thanks.  I am sure FL Corp will do its best moving forward.

Posts 1504
Forum MVP
Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 28 2015 12:39 AM

Bob Pritchett:

Charles McNeil:
Am I to understand that the subscribers to Logos Now and/or Cloud are field testing portions of L7 for a fee and later are still expected to buy it when it is rolled out (whenever that is)? 

Nope. If you like the Logos Now model, I expect you will just continue to subscribe to it, and likely not ever need to make another 'upgrade' purchase.

I'm not sure I understand how Now users wouldn't pay twice. Here's my understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong.

A user who purchases a future v7 base package will be purchasing, in part, features and datasets produced by Faithlife that are new to v7. Most if not all of those v7 features and datasets are being released little by little in Now, and users are paying to access them "Now". 

Many Now users will probably want to purchase a v7 base package, not because they need those new features and datasets (they already have them through Now), but because they want the books in the base packages. But they will also be paying for the features and datasets they have been funding with Now, and thus will pay twice for them, once through Now and once through the base package they get.

It can be argued that its okay for Now users to pay twice for these features and datasets, as they are getting "early access," which is certainly worth something. But it would seem to me they would still be paying twice if no discount is given based on monthly subscription to Now (again, something I'm simply suggesting, and realize that there are arguments against as well - what I'm really protesting in this message is the suggestion that Now users don't pay twice if no discount is given).

Posts 640
Jim | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 28 2015 10:41 AM

I looked at the Logos Now advert again and came away with the same confusion I had the first time I viewed it. There isn't enough information to actually give me a clear idea of what it will do for me and how I use it and how it fits into Logos' product strategy. My first impression was and remains that It sounds like an experiment to see if future products and resources will be leased rather than purchased. Bob said they don't want to do that, but the whole thing is so unclear to me I'm nervous about my continued commitment to Logos as my primary theological library. This thread at the least indicates I'm not the only one who is unclear and has added to my uncertainty about what direction Logos is taking.

Have a great day,
jmac

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 28 2015 12:27 PM

Jim:
My first impression was and remains that It sounds like an experiment to see if future products and resources will be leased rather than purchased. Bob said they don't want to do that,

I am committed to ownership of my resources.  They will take my resources to the cloud when they pry them off my cold, dead hard drive.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 640
Jim | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 28 2015 3:22 PM

George Somsel:
They will take my resources to the cloud when they pry them off my cold, dead hard drive.

Big Smile

Have a great day,
jmac

Posts 1010
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 29 2015 8:56 AM

George Somsel:

I am committed to ownership of my resources.  They will take my resources to the cloud when they pry them off my cold, dead hard drive.

Yes

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 30 2015 7:13 PM

Jim:

I looked at the Logos Now advert again and came away with the same confusion I had the first time I viewed it. There isn't enough information to actually give me a clear idea of what it will do for me and how I use it and how it fits into Logos' product strategy. My first impression was and remains that It sounds like an experiment to see if future products and resources will be leased rather than purchased. Bob said they don't want to do that, but the whole thing is so unclear to me I'm nervous about my continued commitment to Logos as my primary theological library. This thread at the least indicates I'm not the only one who is unclear and has added to my uncertainty about what direction Logos is taking.

jim,

Are we being to hard on Faithlife?  Or perhaps, Faithlife needs to review its marketing and advertising practices?  There is general saying that says, perception or deception can leads one to rejection, even a good product.

  Remember, Faithlife, "Statistics suggest that when customers complain, business owners and managers ought to get excited about it. The complaining customer represents a huge opportunity for more business." Zig Ziglar  
Posts 640
Jim | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 30 2015 8:29 PM

Charles McNeil:
Are we being to hard on Faithlife?

I wasn't intending to complain, just let them know that as one very faithful and long-standing customer, I'm unclear and concerned. As you say, that could be an opportunity for the company. It's up to them.

Have a great day,
jmac

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2015 2:10 AM

Jim, 

You said, "I wasn't intending to complain, just let them know that as one very faithful and long-standing customerg-standing customer, I'm unclear and concerned." Your position is understood. However, an opportunity is an opportunity.  

"Software innovation, like almost every other kind of innovation, requires the ability to collaborate and share ideas with other people, and to sit down and talk with customers and get their feedback and understand their needs." Bill Gates

Posts 353
Virgil Buttram | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2015 5:32 AM

Charles McNeil:

"Software innovation, like almost every other kind of innovation, requires the ability to collaborate and share ideas with other people, and to sit down and talk with customers and get their feedback and understand their needs." Bill Gates

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time.” - John Lydgate

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2015 7:33 AM

Virgil,

You quoted John Lydgate as saying, “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time.” What a principle truth! It's also true that "You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."  Abraham Lincoln

I am sure Faithlife will do the right thing because it's the right thing to do-- develop, keep it simple and reasonable for all its customers. 

Posts 3937
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2015 10:00 AM

Fr Devin Roza:

Bob Pritchett:

Charles McNeil:
Am I to understand that the subscribers to Logos Now and/or Cloud are field testing portions of L7 for a fee and later are still expected to buy it when it is rolled out (whenever that is)? 

Nope. If you like the Logos Now model, I expect you will just continue to subscribe to it, and likely not ever need to make another 'upgrade' purchase.

I'm not sure I understand how Now users wouldn't pay twice. Here's my understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong.

A user who purchases a future v7 base package will be purchasing, in part, features and datasets produced by Faithlife that are new to v7. Most if not all of those v7 features and datasets are being released little by little in Now, and users are paying to access them "Now". 

Many Now users will probably want to purchase a v7 base package, not because they need those new features and datasets (they already have them through Now), but because they want the books in the base packages. But they will also be paying for the features and datasets they have been funding with Now, and thus will pay twice for them, once through Now and once through the base package they get.

It can be argued that its okay for Now users to pay twice for these features and datasets, as they are getting "early access," which is certainly worth something. But it would seem to me they would still be paying twice if no discount is given based on monthly subscription to Now (again, something I'm simply suggesting, and realize that there are arguments against as well - what I'm really protesting in this message is the suggestion that Now users don't pay twice if no discount is given).



This could lead to another level of base packages... one set of each (incl denominational BPs) for the regular individual, and one set of each (sans datasets) that are only visible to those who are Now Subscribers.

PLUS the whole you never have to pay twice thing is already deprecated - at least for academic users. You don't have to pay twice, unless of course you do. Any time dynamic pricing doesn't exceed academic pricing you have to pay twice already.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 960
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2015 10:08 AM

This is all so much simpler than everyone is saying. If what the Faithlife marketing says about Logos Now is accurate then it is early access to Logos 7 - in which case sell it to me now please. I'm not interested in renting but I'm willing to buy in advance.

If as Bob suggests it is something else then please be clear in the marketing.

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 1 2015 12:28 AM

John Goodman:
This is all so much simpler than everyone is saying.

John,

Could it be that simplicity is not the problem? It sounds more like a lack of the will? "Where there is a will, there is a way. If there is a chance in a million..." Pauline Kael

Posts 18
Bryan Tucker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2015 6:21 PM

Bob, your response combined with the Logos Now marketing materials only leave me more confused and uncertain about Logos Now. Some clarification both from users & Faithlife could be helpful in sorting things out.

The OP is coming from the perspective of users who absolutely want to own, not rent, and seems to be asking you to reconsider the terms of Logos Now, to ensure an ownership path to Logos 7 rather than a sense of renting access with no price break once L7 release comes. I also want to own not rent, with a caveat.

I've been a Logos customer since 1995 or 96 (including your separate original Logos maps software, Bible clipart, etc.). My upgrades have been few and far between. I upgraded from your original product to Libronix, then to System X (I think that was the name) engine only, and when Logos moved into the modern age (& I switched to Mac) I eventually bought Logos 4 Portfolio base level package. I recently cross-graded to 6. I'm the type of customer who would normally wait a few major releases before upgrading or cross-grading (partially due to finances, partially waiting until I see revolutionary features I absolutely want). However, when I saw Logos Now presented as a way to get Logos 7 features and datasets as they trickle out, and when I saw a feature & corresponding dataset that I see as game changer in my study method's efficiency, Logos Now became an instant want. BUT...

I was curious about whether Logos Now subscribers will get dynamic pricing on Logos 7 cross-grade, which led me to stumbling upon this thread. The marketing materials present Logos Now as simply getting early access to the next major release's features and data sets as they trickle out. If that's an accurate description, then I could see myself subscribing to get the must-have features I want now, then cross-grading to 7 when available, and then dropping the Logos Now subscription until I see another must-have at some point in the future. But your response muddies the waters for me. You seem to envision Logos Now customers becoming perpetual subscribers and never again owning features, datasets, cross-grades, etc. I understand your points about needing a revenue model that supports your increased costs associated with hosted content. I, and I suspect many others, don't really care much about the hosted content, and am willing to forgo that hosted content (by dropping Logos Now once I cross-grade) to avoid recurring and continual subscription fees. You seem to be emphasizing Logos Now as primarily hosted content that will not likely roll into base packages, which is not what your marketing materials convey to customers as the purpose or emphasis. For those of us who are enticed by Logos Now as primarily a means to incrementally cross-grade to the next major release, the notion of paying a subscription and then having to pay full price to cross-grade when the next release comes feels like we're paying twice for some features. Others have repeatedly expressed this sentiment. Your answer appears to be we don't need to pay twice if we just keep subscribing forever. That's not an option for me, and likely is true of many others. Is there a middle ground we can come to for those of us in your customer base fitting this perspective? Given the apparent disconnect between the Logos Now marketing materials and your vision expressed in this thread, perhaps greater clarification of the Logos Now vision could also help clarify a lot of our confusion.

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2015 1:24 AM

Bryan Tucker:
the Logos Now marketing materials only leave me more confused and uncertain about Logos Now. Some clarification both from users & Faithlife could be helpful in sorting things out. The OP is coming from the perspective of users who absolutely want to own, not rent, and seems to be asking you to reconsider the terms of Logos Now, to ensure an ownership path to Logos 7 rather than a sense of renting access with no price break once L7 release comes.

As a fellow user, I understand your concerns. Your reasoning is understood. Unfortunately, getting a practical satisfactory answer to your expressions will prove to be more of "hoping-against-hope".  Given the "powers-to-be", the response will only be one or three things seen throughout the threads and the forums. I am NOT Bob, a mouth piece for him, a MVP, or a faithlife employee. I will affirm what I know to be their answer when I see it, if and when, one of them decides to respond. I don't want to rain on their parade. No, I am not a prophet nor a son of a prophet.

Bryan Tucker:
I also want to own not rent, with a caveat.

The only way renting Logos Bible Software will make sense is to give the users (millions) complete access to everything. They will not hear of it, except for renting "Now" (IMO, NOW is the tester for Logos 7). All rental situations (e.g WTC, Rockerfellow Ctr, Trump Towers, etc.) are not needy people looking for something free. To rent just says, "I don't want or can't afford to own. On the other hand, one seeking to own, like yourself, just want a reasonable product, in a timely manner, at a fair market value. Until then, keep faith alive, in faithlife. 

Posts 960
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2015 1:45 AM

There still is not a clear communication on this though. If Logos Now was Logos 7 early then a sale of the minimal crossgrade early at something like the average price for a minimal crossgrade would make sense. Especially if at launch one had the option of swapping it for a bigger base packages without a loss. e.g. $200 now. Then at launch either you own minimal crossgrade or you choose to have $200 off gold and pay the difference. If Bob wants regular cash I'm convinced of the value so I'd subscribe. I just want ownership. So far they haven't delivered content which would not easily fit the old ownership model except the graphics but I already owned most of it. I just didn't have a media browser only a search box. I guess we can only wait and see what happens but the clearest message I've heard is something like:

They don't yet know what they want Logos Now to be.

They want to be paid to make a half decent online client before they deliver the product.

It may or may not prove similar/the same as logos 7 and features in Now may or may not be kept separate.

For us now we have to decide whether we do or don't want those features now.

It's like the parable of the workers in the field. If you arrive late you've still got it all;)

If you are wondering whether the website is worth gaining access to yet then it offers very little that wasn't available by accessing the sites they already had but it ties a lot of it together. Just recently there is experimental access to a display feature that means you can view interlinears online. If you need access to your interlinears online then you might fancy this? Some of the guides are there too but not complete.

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 1216
Matt Hamrick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2015 7:33 AM

It never ceases to amaze me how there is so much confusion surrounding Logos Now when you can test drive it for free for 30 days.

Posts 960
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2015 8:28 AM

It's not just about what Logos now is... It's about the ongoing value of a library we've invested a lot of money. Its also about a change in the way we think about and interact and pay for that library. It's about trust. I'm semi satisfied by Bob's answers so I'm renting for now but regretfully.

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 1504
Forum MVP
Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2015 8:30 AM

abondservant:

This could lead to another level of base packages... one set of each (incl denominational BPs) for the regular individual, and one set of each (sans datasets) that are only visible to those who are Now Subscribers.

What I was suggesting would simply be some sort of "discount coupon" based on how many months of the development of L7 one was subscribed to Now.

So, it wouldn't affect base package configuration at all, except to make them slightly cheaper for Now subscribers and avoid them having to pay twice for datasets. They would purchase the same base package as anyone else, just applying some sort of coupon code / dynamic pricing based on their Now subscription and how it should affect their dataset pricing. 

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