Sell me Logos 7 today!

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Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2015 8:40 AM

John Goodman:
I'm semi satisfied by Bob's answers so I'm renting for now but regretfully.

Is this the outcome of Bob's cleverness or the addictiveness of the Logos product?

Posts 962
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2015 8:49 AM

Charles McNeil:

John Goodman:
I'm semi satisfied by Bob's answers so I'm renting for now but regretfully.

Is this the outcome of Bob's cleverness or the addictiveness of the Logos product?

No it's pragmatic reasoning based on having the sermon collection and the discourse analysis already on my wish list. Since they bundled permanent ownership of books I wanted with the now subscription I thought I'd give it a go. My observation so far is that the most helpful feature is the systematic theologies section of the passage guide. Unfortunately it's still not as good as the cited by tool at identifying content because my collections are more up to date than the tagging. The extra data sets are IMHO not that essential but perhaps make searching easier. As I said previously the website is not yet a great improvement over the offerings they had. So far I don't think Logos now is very good.

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2015 9:08 AM

John Goodman:
No it's pragmatic reasoning based on having the sermon collection and the discourse analysis already on my wish list. Since they bundled permanent ownership of books I wanted with the now subscription I thought I'd give it a go. My observation so far is that the most helpful feature is the systematic theologies section of the passage guide. Unfortunately it's still not as good as the cited by tool at identifying content because my collections are more up to date than the tagging. The extra data sets are IMHO not that essential but perhaps make searching easier. As I said previously the website is not yet a great improvement over the offerings they had. So far I don't think Logos now is very good.
 

Bro. John,

I guess 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing.

Keeping faith in Faithlife...

Posts 933
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 4:55 AM

I don't see Faithlife giving any discount at all for 7 to Now subscribers. From their perspective, Now is an ongoing revenue stream needed to pay for ongoing expenses. It would defeat the entire point to take that revenue and give it back to customers in the form of a discount on 7. In that scenario, from a financial standpoint, Now would more closely approximate a payment plan for a one-time purchase of a crossgrade rather than an ongoing revenue stream for Faithlife that is separate and apart from any/all one-time purchases. I am sure such would appeal to some users, but it does not line up with the purpose Bob seemed to indicate Now serves on Faithlife's end.

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 5:37 AM

Matthew:
I don't see Faithlife giving any discount at all for 7 to Now subscribers. From their perspective, Now is an ongoing revenue stream needed to pay for ongoing expenses. It would defeat the entire point to take that revenue and give it back to customers in the form of a discount on 7. In that scenario, from a financial standpoint,

On whose authority you speak? Are you a spokesperson for Bob or Faithlife? Do you have an inside connection or information on Faithlife's finances? How do you know that "Now [IMOP, pre-L 7] is an ongoing revenue stream needed to pay for ongoing expenses?"  If this is so, milking the serious users of Logos the way to go?

Frankly, I think long time users and those greatly invested (I am not professing to be one) should be given a discount when they purchase L7. Bob should give these individuals serious consideration, providing opportunity for others to invest more to received the needed income as you mentioned earlier.

No one is asking Faithlife to give away the store. Just open their hands a little to receive more. It takes money to make money. A closed hand can't receive anything. Sometimes, you have to give, to get.

Posts 933
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 8:47 AM

Charles McNeil:
On whose authority you speak? Are you a spokesperson for Bob or Faithlife?

My comment reflected my understanding of Bob's post earlier in the thread. He said:

1. "There isn't a good way to deliver that content permanently, and we're trying to avoid a situation where we commit to permanent server-based hosting and delivery (which does cost money to maintain) for one-time purchases"

2. "But over time we'll need our revenue to match expenses (at least within some close approximation!), and as our expense model moves to 'perpetual costs for hosting / maintenance / support' we'll need a revenue model that is structured similarly."

3. "We've all previously acted as if there's a purely transactional relationship: we build Product X, you pay onetime for Product X and own it.

But our cost to build Product X is starting to have a long tail -- you expect Product X to get bug fixes, updates when new operating systems are released, support for new mobile platforms, etc. That's more an on-going relationship than a transaction, and ultimately, one way or another, we'll need revenue to cover that."

4. "...you subscribe to Logos Now (for a very reasonable cost!) in order to fund ongoing support, online content, online services, feature development, and incremental improvements."

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 8:57 AM

Matthew:

Charles McNeil:
On whose authority you speak? Are you a spokesperson for Bob or Faithlife?

My comment reflected my understanding of Bob's post earlier in the thread.

Somehow it seems you overlook the very first part of his post:

Bob Pritchett:

Charles McNeil:
Am I to understand that the subscribers to Logos Now and/or Cloud are field testing portions of L7 for a fee and later are still expected to buy it when it is rolled out (whenever that is)? 

Nope. If you like the Logos Now model, I expect you will just continue to subscribe to it, and likely not ever need to make another 'upgrade' purchase.

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 9:19 AM

Matthew,

Thanks for the enlightenment. One would think that Faithlife would have a better plan or an endowment for future levels and developments. At best, Bob's explanations are subject to raise many questions in the minds of Logos users. Many do come to Faithlife for the Logos Bible Software with the mindset of Bob's number # 3 point above.

IMOP, there must be shared sacrifices. Promised users of Now, a discount pro-rated toward L7. Afterall, they are field-testers of what will be a major part of Logos 7. A little incentive may prove to go a long way. 

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 9:26 AM

NB.Mick:

Nope. If you like the Logos Now model, I expect you will just continue to subscribe to it, and likely not ever need to make another 'upgrade' purchase.

Exactly, what is Logo 7? Is it possible to have a description before the product?

Posts 962
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 9:48 AM

IMHO there are three things going on with Logos now.

1) They want to monetize the beta channel.

2) They want to connect costs and revenue with regards to hosting and data costs. Certain datasets and video content are too large for us to all download.

3) They want to fund development of a decent webapp.

I wouldn't have a problem except that:

1) datasets which could work locally and in fact do work locally on the computer are being restricted to rental. This means that parts of Logos are off limits unless you are willing to rent.

2) I've come to expect that webapps should be free except for premium content. Lots of other companies provide great free website in which I pay for content.

3) It feels pretty cheeky to ask me for more money after I've bought the content. Especially cheeky to ask for money when the website is so much more basic than other bible websites at the moment. Yes I understand about netflix etc but I feel like I'm paying for the content. With Logos Now I feel like I'm paying for a pretty basic website.

4) The media browser feature in particularly left me upset because I was looking forward to the images I bought with Logos 6 only to find that the user interface was so poor as to make them effectively unusable. Now I feel I'm being asked to rent access to images I bought outright.

5) Logos Cloud customers are getting a better deal than I ever got... loyal customers what a loyal company.

That's how I understand things and how I feel about them. I am a big spender when it comes to Logos stuff, too much so to get out but it does make me feel really alienated as a customer. The poor and incongruous communication about these things also spoils my enjoyment of updates. I look forward to new product releases from many companies and get excited about buying gadgets and software. They way Logos communicates and the pricing strategy makes me feel disappointed again and again.

At the moment I still buy it because it is really handy software. It's where all my books are. I know how to use it. I've explored the alternatives and they don't meet my needs.

IMHO they need to think about making it fun to buy Logos products again.

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 933
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 10:07 AM

NB.Mick:
Somehow it seems you overlook the very first part of his post

I do not believe I did. Since you mention it though, here is my understanding of it. Bob said, "If you like the Logos Now model, I expect you will just continue to subscribe to it, and likely not ever need to make another 'upgrade' purchase."

1. The reason there will be no need to make an upgrade purchase is that all new features and datasets are included in Now.

2. In order to not need to upgrade, Bob said he expects you will just continue to subscribe to Now.

3. If you stop subscribing, you lose the features and datasets because you never actually bought them. In that case, yes, you need to upgrade. 

Bob is the best interpreter of Bob, but I saw absolutely nothing in the first or any other part of the post indicating the slightest chance of a discounted or free upgrade to 7 for Now subscribers. Not saying it can't or won't happen, only that nothing in what Bob posted indicated that it will.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 10:28 AM

Charles McNeil:

NB.Mick:

Nope. If you like the Logos Now model, I expect you will just continue to subscribe to it, and likely not ever need to make another 'upgrade' purchase.

Exactly, what is Logo 7? Is it possible to have a description before the product?

Charles,

please quote correctly - that's what Bob wrote, I just cited him.

Regarding Logos 7, unless you are a victim of the Mac application-name-number-increasing-bug-feature, this of course is a new iteration of Logos bible software, not yet sold or fully defined, but expected and announced to come up some time (probably more than one and less than three years) after the release of Logos 6. It will contain a free engine at some point in time and probably have differently sized bundles of book ressources plus new features and datasets.

The currently largest selling point for Logos Now is access to such features and datasets, which will be part of Logos 7 (most of them probably as part of a product bundle we would describe today as either a Crossgrade or a Base Package). We get them now - hence the name - others get them with Logos 7 and some of them may be free in the engine and others will be for pay in those product bundles.

That's my private parsing of what Faithlife has officially said on that, so don't hold them to dot all the i's and cross any t's of my post, but I think it's possible to describe it as such. 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 962
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 10:33 AM

That is the disagreement between forum talk and marketing which I've highlighted. In the marketing they tell you it's Logos 7 early... Then sell it to me please. On the forum they say it's a complimentary extra in which case I lament the rental model.

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 11:30 AM

I understood who said what. I am not blaming you for trying to explain what only Bob can make clear. However, I said,.. {IMOP, there must be shared sacrifices. Promised users of Now, a discount pro-rated toward L7. Afterall, they are field-testers of what will be a major part of Logos 7. A little incentive may prove to go a long way.}

Bob, didn't say there will be a discount. This what I am suggesting.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 11:38 AM

Charles McNeil:
Afterall, they are field-testers of what will be a major part of Logos 7

I don't understand this comment.

Logos Now subscribers get access to new content after it has been tested by those Logos Now Subscribers who choose to be involved in beta testing.

Once it ships to the stable channel it is seen as a stable release.

What am I missing here?

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RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 11:47 AM

Charles McNeil:
Bob, didn't say there will be a discount. This what I am suggesting.

Just so long as you remember this. Bob is under no obligation to follow your suggestions.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 12:37 PM

Super.Tramp:
Just so long as you remember this. Bob is under no obligation to follow your suggestions.

Have no fear, no one needs to worry that I would have more influence on Bob than they do. He who holds the "gold" don't usually listen to many other souls.

Here is proof I know the difference between the words OBLIGATION and SUGGESTION:

sug•ges•tion \səg-ˈjes-chən, sə-ˈjes-, -ˈjesh-\ noun

14th century
1 a: the act or process of suggesting 

   b: something suggested

2 a: the process by which a physical or mental state is influenced by a thought or idea 〈the power of sugges-tion〉

   b: the process by which one thought leads to another especially through association of ideas

3: a slight indication: TRACE a suggestion of a smile 

*********          ********              ***********

ob•li•ga•tion \ˌä-blə-ˈgā-shən\ noun

14th century

1: the action of obligating oneself to a course of action (as by a promise or vow)

2 a: something (as a formal contract, a promise, or the demands of conscience or custom) that obligates one to a course of action

   b: a debt security (as a mortgage or corporate bond)

  c: a commitment (as by a government) to pay a particular sum of money also: an amount owed under such an obligationunable to meet its obligations, the company went into bankruptcy

3  a: a condition or feeling of being obligated

    b: a debt of gratitude

4: something one is bound to do: duty, responsibility

 Mish, F. C. (2003). Preface. Merriam-Webster’s collegiate dictionary. (Eleventh ed.). Springfield, MA: Merriam-Webster, Inc.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 12:38 PM

John Goodman:

That is the disagreement between forum talk and marketing which I've highlighted. In the marketing they tell you it's Logos 7 early... Then sell it to me please. On the forum they say it's a complimentary extra in which case I lament the rental model.

Disagreement? Why can't it be both?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 12:47 PM

Charles McNeil:
Here is proof I know the difference between the words OBLIGATION and SUGGESTION:

Ouch! You shouldn't tempt the logician in me with such a strong temptation - and before I finished my first cup of coffee! What you have proved is that you know how to find obligation and suggestion as two separate words in the dictionary. Devil However, even without the dictionary reference, I would easily accept the premise that you know the difference in meaning between the two words.

In case you didn't know my favorite pet is shown below which should tell you why your reasonable statement caused me such distress. Nearly everyone will take it with the meaning you intended.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 962
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 1:45 PM

MJ. Smith:
Disagreement? Why can't it be both?

The difference is in the way Bob describes it earlier in this thread. It sounds like he's thinking of it as an extra - content never included in the base packages. I suspect the aim will be that even if you buy Logos 7 you will never own what comes with Logos Now. Maybe some of it but not all of it anyway. He quite clearly talks about it as something which you will want to rent in addition to owning Logos 7.

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

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