Sell me Logos 7 today!

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Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 2:26 PM

John Goodman:

MJ. Smith:
Disagreement? Why can't it be both?

The difference is in the way Bob describes it earlier in this thread. It sounds like he's thinking of it as an extra - content never included in the base packages. I suspect the aim will be that even if you buy Logos 7 you will never own what comes with Logos Now. Maybe some of it but not all of it anyway. He quite clearly talks about it as something which you will want to rent in addition to owning Logos 7.

I'm reminded of Israel in the wilderness

24 And the people complained against Moses, saying, “What shall we drink?”

The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Ex 15:24.

2 The whole congregation of the Israelites complained against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness.

The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Ex 16:2.

2 The people quarreled with Moses, and said, “Give us water to drink.” Moses said to them, “Why do you quarrel with me? Why do you test the LORD?” 3 But the people thirsted there for water; and the people complained against Moses and said, “Why did you bring us out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and livestock with thirst?”

The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Ex 17:1–3.

Now when the people complained in the hearing of the LORD about their misfortunes, the LORD heard it and his anger was kindled.

The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Nu 11:1.

Then all the congregation raised a loud cry, and the people wept that night. 2 And all the Israelites complained against Moses and Aaron; the whole congregation said to them, “Would that we had died in the land of Egypt! Or would that we had died in this wilderness!

The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Nu 14:1–2.

28 Say to them, “As I live,” says the LORD, “I will do to you the very things I heard you say: 29 your dead bodies shall fall in this very wilderness; and of all your number, included in the census, from twenty years old and upward, who have complained against me, 30 not one of you shall come into the land in which I swore to settle you, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun.

The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Nu 14:28–30.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 960
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 2:46 PM

George Somsel:

I'm reminded of Israel in the wilderness

24 And the people complained against Moses, saying, “What shall we drink?”

The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Ex 15:24.

2 The whole congregation of the Israelites complained against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness.

The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Ex 16:2.

2 The people quarreled with Moses, and said, “Give us water to drink.” Moses said to them, “Why do you quarrel with me? Why do you test the LORD?” 3 But the people thirsted there for water; and the people complained against Moses and said, “Why did you bring us out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and livestock with thirst?”

The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Ex 17:1–3.

Now when the people complained in the hearing of the LORD about their misfortunes, the LORD heard it and his anger was kindled.

The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Nu 11:1.

Then all the congregation raised a loud cry, and the people wept that night. 2 And all the Israelites complained against Moses and Aaron; the whole congregation said to them, “Would that we had died in the land of Egypt! Or would that we had died in this wilderness!

The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Nu 14:1–2.

28 Say to them, “As I live,” says the LORD, “I will do to you the very things I heard you say: 29 your dead bodies shall fall in this very wilderness; and of all your number, included in the census, from twenty years old and upward, who have complained against me, 30 not one of you shall come into the land in which I swore to settle you, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun.

The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Nu 14:28–30.

Seriously? That's extremely rude George... I call foul.

You think Bob is going to slay us all? I think Bob has shown himself to be interested in a dialogue with his customers. You can see above that he is listening to our feelings and making a considered response. For me, it is an important issue. I spend a lot of money here and part of the reason is because they listen. There are several features which are now implemented and I enjoy because we asked!

The long and the short of is is that I'm asking to purchase Logos 7 early. So far Bob says he doesn't think that's a good idea. I'd like to explain how the present situation feels. Faithlife has not made clear to it's customers what Logos Now is and how it relates to Logos 7... it is not surprising we are discussing the relationship between the two products.

If you think I'm grumbling then your are free to judge me but just be careful the measure you use;)

I'd rather keep the conversation going and improve the relationship than walk away feeling disappointed.

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 2:52 PM

MJ. Smith:
 your reasonable statement caused me such distress. Nearly everyone will take it with the meaning you intended. 

Do tell. Is there another thread or email where you can express yourself? 

Posts 2810
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 3:01 PM

John Goodman:
I call foul

I have to agree with John on this one.

John Goodman:
Bob has shown himself to be interested in a dialogue with his customers. You can see above that he is listening to our feelings and making a considered response.

Exactly.

John Goodman:
I'm asking to purchase Logos 7 early. So far Bob says he doesn't think that's a good idea

IMO, that's not asking for too much. With L4 and L5, we got the enhancements (and a LOT of fixes), free, as they came out. It wasn't until L6 that we started having to pay a subscription to get these things as they were introduced. John's not asking for a paradigm change here. In fact, FL changed the paradigm when they introduced LN.

Having said all that, I'm still not sure I want L7 now. I didn't like the roll-out of L4 and L5 with so many issues, so I would be a bit two-faced if I complained that L7 isn't rolling out early. Having ditched my FOMO attitude, I am fine to wait until L7 is a salable product. But I don't begrudge those asking for it early because of what I said above.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 3:01 PM

John Goodman:
Faithlife has not made clear to it's customers what Logos Now is and how it relates to Logos 7... it is not surprising we are discussing the relationship between the two products.

Is Bob willing to give an official statement explaining what "Logos Now is and how it relates to Logos 7" and at the same time clear up any misunderstanding in advertisement?

Posts 26245
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 3:06 PM

John Goodman:
It sounds like he's thinking of it as an extra - content never included in the base packages.

Ah ... I see the basis of your statement. To me Bob was saying that there may be some content that is never included in the base package because it is not practical to have it on your device rather than in the cloud. I suspect that there will be a few Logos Now features that never make it to Logos 7,8, 9 ... but the features most likely to be in this category are features I rarely use personally. I think most features, probably even "nearly all" features will make it into the desktop given the current trajectory. But there may be more of a delay than we would like to insure the Logos Now version retains value. But that is speculation on my part.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 3:15 PM

John Goodman:
Seriously? That's extremely rude George... I call foul.

I find the continual carping rude and I call "Foul."  It seems that some on this forum have little better to do than to complain.  As my mother used to say, "Bitch, bitch, bitch, and the soup hasn't even been poured yet."

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 960
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 3:22 PM

George Somsel:

John Goodman:
Seriously? That's extremely rude George... I call foul.

I find the continual carping rude and I call "Foul."  It seems that some on this forum have little better to do than to complain.  As my mother used to say, "Bitch, bitch, bitch, and the soup hasn't even been poured yet."


Wow... Forum rules?


גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 3:27 PM

John Goodman:
Wow... Forum rules?

The last time I checked, are users of Logos Software required to used this forum?

George may need a time out.

Posts 2810
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 3:28 PM

There are certain persons on the forums, John, that you have to, as MJ would say, "give low priority".

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 960
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 3:31 PM

Peace be with you George... Let's take it down a peg? And be friends?

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 4:43 PM

John Goodman:

Peace be with you George... Let's take it down a peg? And be friends?

That sounds good to me, but must we have continual complaints regarding Logos?  If you don't like it, there are other programs.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 960
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 5:02 PM

OK friends it is... I hope you can see I've tried to set a very positive tone to this thread from the outset. Maybe I deviated from that for a bit but I tried to emphasise how it feels and I think it helps if faith life know how we feel. I prefer to be challenged more gently. No I can't use other software because Logos is hands down the best;)

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 8:09 PM

John Goodman:
I've tried to set a very positive tone to this thread from the outset. Maybe I deviated from that for a bit but I tried to emphasise how it feels and I think it helps if faith life know how we feel. I prefer to be challenged more gently.

John,

You're within your rights to express yourself, especially if you are in the USA.

COMPLAINT is neither a dirty wrong nor the act itself.  It simply means:  1. an expression of grief, pain, or dissatisfaction. 2. a : something that is the cause or subject of protest or outcry. You're an adult with a point of view. Thank you!

 

John Goodman:
No I can't use other software because Logos is hands down the best;)

This is all the more why you should express your views. You have invested so much, for so long, and love to a great degree the Logos product. You are doing the right thing, at the right time, and under the right thread.

As I see it, believe it or not, you’re doing Bob and other Logos users a favor.  “Statistics suggest that when customers complain, business owners and managers ought to get excited about it. The complaining customer represents a huge opportunity for more business.” Zig Ziglar

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 8:31 PM

....Root of bitterness, anyone?....

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 10:16 PM

John Goodman:
OK friends it is... I hope you can see I've tried to set a very positive tone to this thread from the outset.

John, 

You are a "good" "man"!  If for no other reason, its your name (Goodman). Peace, Love, and Grace.SmileSmile

Posts 5248
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2015 10:48 AM

AS I think I may have said I do not want Logos 7 anytime soon. But one thing I find very troubling is Bob's statement that possibly none of Logos Now will make it to a Logos 7. I realize there are subscription items that I would only expect to see within Logos Now. But if none of the more standard features like Proverbs Explorer make it to Logos 7 what will make me want to upgrade, and I sure do not want to have new features added to a paid upgrade that are not finished. I know there are no solid plans for what is likely to be next falls upgrade, and I certainly do not want Logos 7 to have every feature of Logos Now, but there seems to me to be more than a few features of Logos Now like the Web App which other companies generally include for free (in Bible software for example there is www.mywsb.com), that make sense to be Logos 7 features. I am very happy for those of you who wish to have Logos Now and pay to be beta testers, and get access to sample new books, I am not jealous because I too could be part of it, I choose not to be. And if everything developed within the Logos Now world never makes it to Logos 7 that is fine too (albeit illogical in my mind, but fully a Faithlife decision).

 I have learned to be content with whatever I have.  (Phil 4:11b) My deepest prayer is for all of us to be more like Paul and less like Tantalus.

-Dan

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2015 5:45 PM

Dan Francis:
I know there are no solid plans for what is likely to be next falls upgrade, and I certainly do not want Logos 7 to have every feature of Logos Now, but there seems to me to be more than a few features of Logos Now like the Web App which other companies generally include for free (in Bible software for example there is www.mywsb.com), that make sense to be Logos 7 features.

This is disturbing, if true, for one who's considering purchasing L7.

Posts 5248
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2015 6:08 PM

Well I would expect that it will be 10-11 months before we have to worry about 7, so a lot of things can change.

-Dan

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2015 9:16 PM

At the risk of making this thread even longer... :-)

The re-presentation of my 'four points' seems to still be relevant.

It also seems we're having a vocabulary problem -- which I understand we have created. "Logos 7" is actually three things: A) new code, B) new 'core features' (code and data closely entangled), and C) more/different books in base packages. Starting with Logos 6 we started to make these things clearer, and even to offer tiers of crossgrade and upgrade options, allowing you to pick what you wanted.

We're not yet ready to announce how Logos Now meshes with Logos 7 (we're working on it!), but the basic principles are the same as we have stated over and over and over in these forums. And the reasoning behind them remains the same as it was in the four points helpfully reposted.

I'll hit the key points again, though:

Yes, we want everyone to subscribe to at least Logos Now. It's good for us and it's good for you.

Yes, we know some of you wish to never subscribe to anything, and we will continue to let you purchase things, though some things require online databases, or are hard to 'complete' and you're unlikely to be able to purchase them. We will continue to try to make Logos Now such a compelling offer that you give in and subscribe.

If you do subscribe to Logos Now, you're doing what we want you to, and we would be foolish to 'punish' you for doing what we want. Yes, this is a form of 'trust me', but I feel like we've earned it. If you subscribe to Logos Now, you won't be 'punished' when Logos 7 ships. Yes, we will want you to continue subscribing (on the road to Logos 8!), but our plan, our intention, and our own financial self-interest requires us to treat you well, because you did what we wanted!

Logos Now is best understood as (mostly) parts A and B of the three things that make up a new release. Eventually A (the new code) is free to everyone. B (new code/data entanglements) and C (different books) are part of Logos 7, but we'll price Logos 7 differently -- somehow -- for people who've been subscribing to Logos Now for a while and effectively paying for 'B' already.

People who wait for Logos 7 and get A, B, and C all bundled together may still be missing parts of 'B' that require online databases, etc.

Now, some specific answers:

John Goodman:
1) datasets which could work locally and in fact do work locally on the computer are being restricted to rental. This means that parts of Logos are off limits unless you are willing to rent.

Some of the reason datasets are in Logos Now is because they need online content. But an equally big reason you're leaving out is that many of the new datasets are 'forever incomplete' and being constantly updated. Yes, the data file may be downloadable, but we're updating it constantly as part of Logos Now. If we've tagged 30 books to work with a new guide section, we can download that database to your machine. But over the following months (and years) we're tagging dozens / hundreds more, and that's hard to sell to people. So we put it in Logos Now, where the subscription revenue funds ongoing tagging. This is a big deal to us in labor / expense / etc. that isn't obvious on the other side -- except that things just keep getting subtly better, and staying in sync with new content.

John Goodman:
2) I've come to expect that webapps should be free except for premium content. Lots of other companies provide great free website in which I pay for content.

Alas, my grocer still charges me for food no matter how much I come to expect it for free. :-)

Seriously, you're right, and it's a problem that's dangerous for the industry: lots of good web apps are free. Sometimes because a deeply funded company is willing to lose money to gain share (a luxury we don't have), or because they have another revenue stream -- like covering that site in ads. Note as well that very few 'free web apps' have powerful downloadable desktop software and custom apps for dozens of platforms, AND no ads shown. I don't think we're really in that game at all.

(Well, we are -- see http://biblia.com. But it's not full Logos -- for a reason -- and it has ads, just like most of the free Bible web apps, which don't have very powerful tools or very large libraries.)

John Goodman:
3) It feels pretty cheeky to ask me for more money after I've bought the content. Especially cheeky to ask for money when the website is so much more basic than other bible websites at the moment. Yes I understand about netflix etc but I feel like I'm paying for the content. With Logos Now I feel like I'm paying for a pretty basic website.

Well, the web app is the most trivial part of Logos Now -- it's the data, code, content, services, etc. that deliver the value. The web app is (for now) a bonus -- and while it looks like it hasn't yet caught up to Logos desktop (and it hasn't), a massive amount of work has been going on behind the scenes, and it'll take some big leaps forward in the next twelve months.

-- Bob

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