Weary of the "I can get it cheaper...Logos is greedy" argument

After seeing more posts regarding pricing for Logos resources and accusing Logos of being greedy in their pricing, I was compelled to post the reasons why I am weary of this argument. For those in the forum family, please correct me if I am incorrect with any of these observations...

1) Resources in Logos really are "value added" due to being tagged and integrated into all of the capabilities of the software. While I consider some of Logos' marketing to be a little silly (i.e. the cost of these resources in print would be...), this is truly one of their strongest marketing arguments. In addition, if I have a commentary in print versus having it in Logos, then (in most cases) it is available to me in multiple places - my MacBook Pro, my iPad, my iPhone, and even anywhere I have access to a web browser. That is also value added - much value added.

2) Adding all of this value isn't free. Logos is a business who pays employees to bring resources into the Logos format, create and maintain the software, apps, and server infrastructure. With a print book or even an e-book, once the book is printed/distributed and purchased, the publisher is finished at that point. Not so with Logos. With each iteration of the software, new features are added to resources in Logos. For instance, I owned books in Logos 3, but they are much more valuable to me now because of the capabilities that have come in Logos 4,5, and 6.

3) Logos is a business and they want to sell resources. As with any business who sells a product, setting the price point is involves a complicated set of choices. The cost of development, marketing, etc. is weighed against the price point at which people will buy the product. In addition, Logos must deal with publishers and licensing rights (they all have to make their money too). After all of these considerations, Logos sets a price that they believe the resource will sell at. It does them no good to offer a resource that doesn't sell. Even if I don't understand their pricing, I know there is much about it that I do not know.

4) As a Logos user for seven years (since the Logos 3 days), I have been impressed with the business integrity I have seen in Logos. Their refund policy is extremely generous. I have seen them go above and beyond to "make things right." Even as they have grappled with the move to cloud based and subscription formats in almost everything, they have tried to communicate and be open & honest about the directions they are heading and the reasons for it.

5) Logos makes no claim to compete on price alone. Perhaps I have missed it, but I don't recall ever seeing Logos claim to offer the "lowest prices" on resources.

Finally, at the end of day we each make our purchasing decisions. Logos is a business who puts out a product at a price they believe can sustain their business model. We then decide is it is worth the cost. If not, then we don't buy the product. If something is truly over priced, few if anyone will buy it and Logos will either lower its price or go back to the drawing board. Even though we are dealing with Bible study resources, we are still dealing with principles of business and the market.

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Comments

James Chandler

Thanks for the post. I completely agree, I am a very satisfied customer. [H]

[Y]

[y]

[Y]

4) As a Logos user for seven years (since the Logos 3 days), I have been impressed with the business integrity I have seen in Logos. Their refund policy is extremely generous. I have seen them go above and beyond to "make things right."

Although everything you say is true, this is the top reason I love Logos. The "business integrity" and "making things right" is worth a lot to me.

Thank you, Greg, for reminding us.

Daniel NM

4) As a Logos user for seven years (since the Logos 3 days), I have been impressed with the business integrity I have seen in Logos. Their refund policy is extremely generous. I have seen them go above and beyond to "make things right."

Although everything you say is true, this is the top reason I love Logos. The "business integrity" and "making things right" is worth a lot to me.

Thank you, Greg, for reminding us.

[Y] [Y]

Lynden O. Williams

Well said Greg.

JAL

Thanks for posting this.

Dan Francis

Thank you for your words of support. I just wanted to add the case for asking for cheaper is sometimes the publishers have offered a sale price and Faithlife somehow overlooked it. I do not expect Logos to match every price but it is prudent to inquire and also wise to sometimes purchase elsewhere. There have been times when the question why is FL price this high has lead to cheaper prices in the long run. In the case of Tyndale there may be no move and indeed the cheaper prices elsewhere may be forced up, but I do not think we should discourage the question even if in 90% of the time the answer will be FL resources are value added and not simple eBooks.

Dan

(‾◡◝)

Can I have an Amen!?

Very well said and, if I had the power to do so, worthy of a sticky post.

Kenneth Neighoff

[Y]

SineNomine

Greg, thank you very much for this valuable contribution to the forums.

Lew Worthington

Your elegant statement is on target. Thank you.

DBR

[Y][Y]

Alexxy Olu

[Y][Y][Y]

James Taylor

I am also a VERY satisfied customer, and find many of the negative posts/complaints to be utterly ridiculous. That doesn't mean I've never had problems, but Faithlife continually delivers the best of the best in Bible study software/digital research resources. Every time they release something that amazes most of us, someone comes along and complains about why its not cheaper, faster, and better. As for me, my studies have progressed incomparably since the days of books covering every inch of my desk and office shelves. More glad than ever that I decided to invest in Logos!

Doc B

I am weary of this argument

Then don't respond. You don't even have to click on the thread and read it.

I say this because there are new users coming on the forums all the time, and they have a right to speak their mind. Patient forum users always calmly point out the benefits of Logos and why a resource costs more in Logos than it does on a Kindle (for example).

Additionally, I've seen a good number of times where users have called FL out on a pricing error, which then gets corrected because someone spoke up.

Third, competition is always good for the buyer. In posting the prices available elsewhere, buyers are acting in their best interest. And beyond that, FL may very well benefit from knowing what competitors are charging for similar resources in different formats.

Finally, there may be legitimate concerns about the pricing of certain resources, and users should have the ability to ask about these concerns. The addressing of such concerns is always in FL's favor. Squelching commentary on pricing is not.

Kenneth Neighoff

[Y]

John Crupper

Thanks SO much for saying this. I wholeheartedly agree.

After all, it's not like there's a "individual mandate" requiring you to buy software from Logos (even though we now know that it's Constitutional).[;)]

I have other Bible software packages that I use. But I know exactly what I'm giving up if I choose to purchase a resource for that platform instead of Logos. It's apples and oranges.

John Crabtree

[Y][Y][Y][Y]

Veli Voipio

[Y]

Fasil

Thanks Logos ! I love your service. Keep up!

Kenute P. Curry

"Value Added and Tagged" does not justify the exorbitant prices of sets of commentaries for me; I would rather have the hardback copy in my hand anyway. Also I have bought HARDBACK COPIES elsewhere that are far cheaper than the prices of Digital Versions here on LOGOS. Not to mention the paragraphs I have found missing in commentaries and books, and up until now, they have not been updated and secured. Also the immeasurable barrage of typos and mistakes I have found in books on here as well.

As for FAITHLIFE I think that they are a wonderful BIBLE SOFTWARE RESOURCE. I would not be here if I did not think so. They just need to step up their game and correct all of the typos and mistakes in books, commentaries, etc. And it is about time that they do that. It is taking far too long! And yes, some of their prices on commentaries and books can be set at a cheaper rate. They are far too exorbitant.

End of story!

James Taylor

Not to mention the paragraphs I have found missing in commentaries and books, and up until now, they have not been updated and secured. Also the immeasurable barrage of typos I have found in books on here as well.

Just a thought...I'm sure you'd agree that print resources also have typos, smudges, at times -illegible typesets/font sizes- improper or unhelpful formatting/layouts and errors and that usually only 1 publisher/printer is responsible for them and it will be corrected in a future edition/revision, usually years later, and you have to buy that new edition at full price too. On the other hand, Faithlife has to be held responsible for the typos/errors etc of ALL PUBLISHERS/RESOURCES they offer? Of course some of the typos my be created by them, but most of them probably aren't, and they have to then communicate with publishers about correcting the source file (which takes time), and then they update them for free (unlike print).

As far as pricing, I'm not sure if you've created many personal books, but if you have ever made a verse by verse commentary, with milestones, links to other sources, links to places within that resource, Indexes to every author/subject/scripture/ancient source or any other various tagging procedures, you may start to realize that it takes hours of meticulous work to build a document like that, and therefor the price is justified. (Unless were talking about a BRILL resource[:O])

MJ. Smith

What gets to me on the "Logos charges too much" threads is:

the willingness to make statements without knowing anything about the costs side of the equation ... Bob has repeated shown the profit margin to reasonable to slim.
the unwillingness to recognize that contractual constraints may limit what Faithlife can do
the insistence that the tagging errors/typos/upgrading of tagging of the poster's resources are higher priority than anyone else's (everyone know MY OWN library of resources should be fixed first [;)])
the failure to recognize that different users place different values on resources ... what is too much for you may be a steal for your neighbor.
the use of whiney, entitled, hyperbolic language

What is the most effective thing we can do to increase Faithlife's resources for correcting errors and broadening offerings? Sell our friends, schools and churches on Logos/Verbum. [8-|]

James Taylor

What is the most effective thing we can do to increase Faithlife's resources for correcting errors and broadening offerings? Sell our friends, schools and churches on Logos/Verbum.

Amen, and then practically there's always the little "report typo" option on the right click menu :-)

Jack Caviness

the use of whiney, entitled, hyperbolic language

[:P] I cannot add a thing to this statement [Y] Well said [Y]

Al Het

I guess I would agree, to the extent that I don't see a lot gain, or a lot of value in going to a forum established by a company and complaining about the price of the main product of the company, or the perceived ethics of that company, or whatever. I will say that I put the posts that complain about people who complain about Logos in about the same category. I don't see a lot of gain or value in it.

However, I guess that ultimately, I like the dialogue. The forum gives people a place to say, "I think Logos costs too much..." And, because Logos is a part of these forums, they can get a feel for what these people believe. At the same time, it give others the opportunity to say, "I don't think they are too expensive. I don't mind paying more because of the great value they have added..."

In defense: As you have acknowledged, one of the major sales strategies of Logos is, "You would pay X thousands of dollars more if you bought such a collection in print..." That by itself opens the doors for this criticism. If they are saying that you should buy Logos because it is such a good financial value, that will lead directly to the counter position that Amazon, or other Bible software companies, or whoever else, is selling X resource for X amount less. You really can't have it both ways.

(‾◡◝)

Not to mention the paragraphs I have found missing in commentaries and books, and up until now, they have not been updated and secured. Also the immeasurable barrage of typos and mistakes I have found in books on here as well.

They just need to step up their game and correct all of the typos and mistakes in books, commentaries, etc. And it is about time that they do that. It is taking far too long!

Yes, there are lots of typos and, yes, they do seem to take a long time to correct, but please remember this, you have the God-given privilege of riding the crest of an amazingly incredible revolution in publishing - imo, even bigger and more historic than what Gutenberg did in the 15th century. It is coming fast and hard and, surprise(!), there are lots of typos in tens of thousands of resources with a few bazillion more to come (were that we all could be sinless perfection but, of course, we're not).

I say, be patient and give them a break. Eventually, the typos will get corrected. But until the day that the last typo is corrected, I suspect the FL employees will often feel like one-armed paper hangers or the one-legged man in a derriere kicking contest.

Rodney Phillips

Brand new to Logos but already blown away by Logos and you guys here on these forums..

[Y]

Bruce Dunning

Finally, at the end of day we each make our purchasing decisions. Logos is a business who puts out a product at a price they believe can sustain their business model. We then decide is it is worth the cost. If not, then we don't buy the product. If something is truly over priced, few if anyone will buy it and Logos will either lower its price or go back to the drawing board. Even though we are dealing with Bible study resources, we are still dealing with principles of business and the market.

[Y]

Greg Corbin

I am weary of this argument

Then don't respond. You don't even have to click on the thread and read it.

I say this because there are new users coming on the forums all the time, and they have a right to speak their mind. Patient forum users always calmly point out the benefits of Logos and why a resource costs more in Logos than it does on a Kindle (for example).

Additionally, I've seen a good number of times where users have called FL out on a pricing error, which then gets corrected because someone spoke up.

Third, competition is always good for the buyer. In posting the prices available elsewhere, buyers are acting in their best interest. And beyond that, FL may very well benefit from knowing what competitors are charging for similar resources in different formats.

Finally, there may be legitimate concerns about the pricing of certain resources, and users should have the ability to ask about these concerns. The addressing of such concerns is always in FL's favor. Squelching commentary on pricing is not.

I am not really advocating "squelching commentary on pricing." These are forums for discussion. However, I am advocating that pricing discussion be well reasoned and take the factors I list into account. It's a much more complicated issue than simply "I can get the same book for $$ from company X."

Greg Corbin

Thanks for the kind affirmation to my post.

Greg Corbin

I guess I would agree, to the extent that I don't see a lot gain, or a lot of value in going to a forum established by a company and complaining about the price of the main product of the company, or the perceived ethics of that company, or whatever. I will say that I put the posts that complain about people who complain about Logos in about the same category. I don't see a lot of gain or value in it.

However, I guess that ultimately, I like the dialogue. The forum gives people a place to say, "I think Logos costs too much..." And, because Logos is a part of these forums, they can get a feel for what these people believe. At the same time, it give others the opportunity to say, "I don't think they are too expensive. I don't mind paying more because of the great value they have added..."

In defense: As you have acknowledged, one of the major sales strategies of Logos is, "You would pay X thousands of dollars more if you bought such a collection in print..." That by itself opens the doors for this criticism. If they are saying that you should buy Logos because it is such a good financial value, that will lead directly to the counter position that Amazon, or other Bible software companies, or whoever else, is selling X resource for X amount less. You really can't have it both ways.

Good points, especially about Logos promotional strategy opening the door for critique. I do note that Logos' primary competitor markets their products the same way, so it's not unique to them. Your post is a great example of the type of dialogue that is healthy in a forum like this. What is unhealthy is unreasoned, childish attacks toward Logos/FaithLife like I have seen from some. Thank you!

Doc B

I am advocating that pricing discussion be well reasoned and take the factors I list into account

...but that requires KNOWING SOMETHING. That's my point. The OP often, or almost always, doesn't know enough to be reasoned (or reasonable).

These posts are always addressed by faithful forum participants and the "value-added" parts of Logos are described to the OP in some detail. Thus education takes place. (Yes, there can be problems when a fanboy jumps in and is nasty to the OP.)

As I said, these types of posts are, in the long run, almost always beneficial to FL, not detrimental.

Mark Barnes

The OP often, or almost always, doesn't know enough to be reasoned (or reasonable).

Then perhaps what Greg is really saying is that's he's weary of the small number of occasions where people moan without taking the trouble to inform themselves by searching or asking questions. I don't think anyone would mind a poster saying: "I've seen that XXX company has YYY resource that's a lot cheaper than Logos. Are there any advantages in the Logos edition that makes it worth the extra dollars?". I don't even think anyone minds if someone says, "Please, Logos can you keep your prices down. I'm struggling to afford to buy what I want/need.". That's a perfectly reasonable request. What can be wearying (as Greg said) are people who post that Logos is a money-grabbing business, before they've considered the bigger picture.

It's often the case in a Bible study group that the most well-informed ask questions, and the least well-informed answer them. It turns out that the well-informed are well-informed precisely because they ask and listen, rather than just spouting their own opinion.

To be fair to the forums, whilst there's a lot of opinion expressed (just look at this thread!), the vast majority of it is well-informed, and there are also a large number of questions from people who are humble enough to ask for help or information. That's what keeps most of us coming back. But it would be even better if it was always like that.

Mike Childs

I agree with most of what has been said, and I have purchased well over $30,000 worth of Logos books over the last 25 years. Therefore, I feel entitled to an opinion about it. I am not someone who doesn't care about Logos.

I am not tired of people complaining about high prices, nor I suspect is Logos / Faithlife, because at least they are giving Logos a chance for their business, and are investigating the possibility. Logos needs these people to check out their products and learn about the value added benefits of Logos. Even if they buy from other sources, they may one day buy from Logos.

In addition, there are many resources for which Logos tagging really doesn't benefit me. I just want to read the book. In that case, I will purchase from the cheapest source. (A few years ago that wasn't true, and I always bought from Logos.) I will look at Logos first, even in those cases. But I often will buy from Amazon or other sources. However, Logos is a business, and will do what is in its best interest. So will customers.

I will always defend Logos' integrity. I think they are a great business run by good Christian people. Sometimes, I disagree with something they do, and I do not hesitate to say so. But they try to do the right thing in their business. That has been proven to me over the last 25 years plus of doing business with them.

JAL

I find critical assessment and evaluation of resources to be helpful.

I am saddened when I read posts full of vitriol, yet I respect that Faithlife allots the leeway for such expression.

JT (alabama24)

I will always defend Logos' integrity. I think they are a great business run by good Christian people. Sometimes, I disagree with something they do, and I do not hesitate to say so. But they try to do the right thing in their business.

[Y]

Joseph Turner

I will always defend Logos' integrity. I think they are a great business run by good Christian people. Sometimes, I disagree with something they do, and I do not hesitate to say so. But they try to do the right thing in their business.

[Y] [Y]

Bruce Dunning

I will always defend Logos' integrity. I think they are a great business run by good Christian people. Sometimes, I disagree with something they do, and I do not hesitate to say so. But they try to do the right thing in their business. That has been proven to me over the last 25 years plus of doing business with them.

Well said and I totally agree!

Dan Francis

I have at times been a critic of Faithlife practices regarding pricing, but I have tried to be fair, occasionally there have been "iffy" marketing strategies and the continual March madness leading to a purchase price for Treasury of David much more than the regular cost is very suspect. But all in all I do think of Logos as a company with a great deal of integrity. It has to make money and as stated we do not know the contracts. Greed should not be put into the picture at all, unless you might refer to CP title, since they are royalty free and production costs have been completely covered via the CP system those prices do seem high at times, but they are still usually far cheaper than you could think of picking up a used copy for (assuming you could even find one). But these CP titles still require maintenance as typos are reported and corrected and in general all companies have products with higher profit margins, we would not usually go into a store and say this sale item is close to your cost, why can't everything in the store be at this profit level.

-Dan

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