User Manuals -- Are hardcopies available?

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Posts 237
C M | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Oct 27 2015 6:07 PM

This topic started in the thread "Listing All Commentaries." Someone requested help with listing commentaries. From there, a footer by Doc. B. caught my eyes:  "We need a manual!! Volunteer forums and aftermarket for-profit training are no way to support a premium software package."

Inquiry to Doc B,

A printed manual, I want to know:

  1. What the reason for not making Printed format) available to purchasers of the Logos Bible Software?
  2. What would be the size of this manual and the cost?  Why is it not free with the purchase of the software?
  3. Is Bob P., aware of this lack? If not, why not?  If so, what is his response?
 Doc B: all but a handful are dependent on these forums when they get stuck.

Is this true? This is not good. If it so, this is a form of manipulation. Many claim that FL is responsive to the needs of Logos Software Users. This is basic. Do they really want people to get the maximum usage out of this product or control customers to visit a certain website? I hope not?

If God can give man a written manual (The Ten-Commandments) for living, why can't FaithLife give a written manual for the Logos Software to newcomers and especially, to those with large libraries? 

You can get the backstory from the thread "Listing All Commentaries" and some of the early responses.

Anymore information?

Posts 2041
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2015 6:49 PM

I would like to have the manual published in print sometime during July 2016 (when my Logos Now Annual Subscription ends) through September 2016 (before version 7 ships), it should include everything in the L6 Feature Crossgrade and Logos Now up until publication and it should list and present all databases and commands: i.e. what kind of searches You can do, how books, Bibles, manuscripts and essential/helpful information can be accessed with precision and efficiency, tool shortcuts, and the most important things in first and second year original languages or what most people who learn Hebrew and Greek need to train on the most.
It would not have to have complete listings or full descriptions of every subtlety but more like help me find my way among the 100-200 features and the many commands. I'm willing to look for more graphical presentations, full listings of commands, and elaborate tutorials elsewhere than in the print manual. Almost all the nested and most advanced commands could be left out of the print manual.
Faithlife should not leave us waiting for a "more up-to-date" L7 manual but give us an option to purchase a print manual with all the help that can reasonably fit between the covers, including Logos Now, before L7 ships.
I will pay my postage costs as well.

Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 12

Posts 3148
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2015 6:53 PM

Charles McNeil:

Inquiry to Doc B,

A printed manual, I want to know:

  1. What the reason for not making Printed format) available to purchasers of the Logos Bible Software?
  2. What would be the size of this manual and the cost?  Why is it not free with the purchase of the software?
  3. Is Bob P., aware of this lack? If not, why not?  If so, what is his response?

1 and 3. Bob is the one who said, a few years back, that Logos would probably never offer a printed manual. I'd link you to that post but I've lost it. Perhaps one of the forum MVPs can.

2. I have written my own, and it is about 3 inches thick. No, it's not available for distribution, because that would be gross plagiarism. I've copied sections directly from the wiki, from the Logos help files, and from the forums. To accurately document most every detail would require a set of manuals about 10" to 12" think, IMO. The cost would obviously depend on the size. If Logos were low-end software, the added cost would be prohibitive. But at what most people pay for a base package and the major upgrades, building that cost in would not be noticed by many. The cost argument is one that has never connected with me.

To be fair to FL, in my experience, they are very responsive to the needs of customers, with the exception of providing hard-copy documentation of the software and responding to some user requests (notes, mobile apps, some usability issues). The reason I mentioned the importance of the forums is, in my experience, every single question I've had, whether it was about how to accomplish a task in the software, how to deal with something broken (won't load, won't start, crashes, etc.), or how to use the software better has been answered on the forums.

I don't think I'm being unfair: I've paid for training. I paid nearly a thousand bucks to fly out to and attend Mo Proctor's Camp Logos I; I bought John Fallahee's course (highly worth the price); and I've bought Danny Zacharias' Udemy course (also highly worth the price). Aftermarket, expensive paid training should *augment* usability, not be the primary source of instruction (that point is in my footer). I've also had problems when, for whatever reason, nobody in the forums (who was available) could help...and that left me stuck. Emails to customer service have taken several days to be answered. That doesn't work well when your sermon/lesson is the next day. Calls to customer service often ended with me re-installing something, which takes hours, when the problem could have been fixed by Dave Hooten in a couple seconds (but Dave was off the forums).

Allow me to also add that my criticism of the philosophy of FL in no way is a reflection on the sincerity or good will of the employees; I've never interacted with a single one of them, from Bob to the lady on the phone, who didn't want to make me happy as a customer. They've been patient when I was mad as a hornet because the software wouldn't work. Also, I hope it goes without saying, I'm well aware that this is my opinion, but it isn't my company. They can run it how they like. I hope they listen to constructive criticism, but they don't have to.

The bottom line is, until enough customers demand a manual, or a comprehensive help file, we won't get one. (And even then, we might not...Bob sounded pretty sure of himself in that post referenced above.) So it is what it is. I can either stomp my feet or I can stick around and try to help others. I've chosen the latter, with a few moments of foot stomping thrown in here or there for good measure, including my footer/sig (it makes me feel better, and I like annoying the handful of fanboys who think FL can do no wrong Devil ).

Until and unless something changes, be nice to the handful of MVPs in the forums...they are your get-out-of-jail-free card. (Excepting, as you noticed on the old thread, the very few MVPs who are "less than polite" at times...you discovered one of them already.)

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2015 7:07 PM

Unix:
including Logos Now

Logos Now Training Manual by Morris Proctor

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 26054
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 12:42 AM

A range of training materials and manuals are available at https://www.logos.com/products/search?Series+%2f+Sets=MP+Seminars 

Posts 6784
Forum MVP
Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 5:46 AM

One challenge with a printed manual, is the software is always being updated. Look at how much it has changed since 6.0 came out. 

Lynden Williams Communications

Posts 237
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 9:58 AM

Doc. B.

You said much. I would like to separate the two issues to keep the purity of this thread (User Manuals). Is it possible for you to start a new thread on the subject: The Role of MVPs or you can give me a personal email address and we can discuss it off sight. I have some questions and would like some clarification from you, others and hopefully, FaithLife on the role of “MVPs.” The reason is that you make them sound cultic, unkind hall monitors or someone to be feared in this forum. If I prejudged, forgive me and please explain.

 

You deserve to be heard. You’ve expressed deep disappointment and some frustrations despite your efforts and cries for a written manual. I can’t make any promises, but I would give you my ears (not literally). Thanks for your consideration.

Posts 26054
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 10:35 AM

Charles

Does the link I posted above address your desire for user manuals?

Graham

Posts 3883
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 10:39 AM

Lynden Williams:

One challenge with a printed manual, is the software is always being updated. Look at how much it has changed since 6.0 came out. 

Of course FaithLife could install a "Documentation Division" with the responsibility of keeping an on-line set of manuals current. Even if it were not downloadable (i.e. web pages), a least there would be a current manual available. I often look to the Wiki for answers, but find it is written for the high-end user, not us simple folk trying to find a single HOW TO. Having a set of easily accessible manuals (on-line or off-line) would encourage users to keep their software current - since the docs would not be guaranteed to include instructions for previous versions of the software. 

It is time for FaithLife to add a team of technical writers to the staff with the specific task of creating and maintaining user manuals - which could be accessed on-line via the Internet or on the local machine.

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 3148
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 10:49 AM

Charles McNeil:
Is it possible for you to start a new thread on the subject: The Role of MVPs or you can give me a personal email address and we can discuss it off sight.

I'll let others discuss the role of MVPs. My experience, excepting one or two who can be consistently short, or even rude, is that they are bona fide direct benefits to the FL Corp., on the level that they might be taxable by the Feds. In other words, without the input, assistance, and intervention of a handful of MVPs, FL would certainly not have the market share it has, and might not even be viable. They do *that much* to keep the customer base functional. They are neither cultic nor unkind (excepting a couple as above). They rather are very good with the software and can communicate those skills to newbies.

I would say the level of input has dropped off a bit...a couple of them have disappeared and others may be too busy to contribute as much as in the past. If they were to all retire at once, oh, Lordy, Lordy.

Charles McNeil:
You deserve to be heard.

I'm sure I've been heard as high up as necessary. But thanks for the support.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 237
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 10:54 AM

Lynden Williams:
he software is always being updated. Look at how much it has changed since 6.0 came out. 

Lynden Williams,

It is not my intent to carry anyone else’s water, but I do have some personal concerns on this matter. I am under the impression that you are not an employee or representative of the Faithlife Corp and what you will share is purely your opinion. 

I am in the process of getting to know the Faithlife Corp through its product, Logos Bible Software. With satisfactory answers to my questions and service after the sale, a natural consequence is that I would willingly recommend this product to others around the world.  The word of a satisfied customer carries more weight than the company’s marketing or advertisement department. This holds true if otherwise.

1. Why are customers are not given a printed User Manual free, at the time of purchasing a based package?

  • If cost is a concern, why not make them (hardcopied manuals) available to the customers upon request?
  • You know what each of the customers own: Number of books, along with data sets, and its capabilities. Come on, help us out.

2.   If what you said above is so, why are printed manuals are still being sold?
3.   If I were to purchase a new car, an iron, or TV Monitor, I will be given a free up-to-date manual.

4.   Is not updating manuals is the cost of doing business? At least at certain interval printed manuals should be made available to customers.

    5.   Please name another product (of great cost) that requires the buyers to purchase the instructions to operate it?

      6.   Faithlife should be fully aware that all users of the Logos Software are not equally talented, skilled or proficient on the computer or with digital materials.

        7.   No one is asking for welfare here, just fairness and support.

          8.   When a person has invested thousands of dollars in a product he or she shouldn’t be depended upon fellow users for basic knowledge of its useage. If anything, it should be supplementary, but not primary.

            9.   IMHOP, I think there should be many more of Morris Proctor’s bootcamps around the country and they should be free (no charge to customers). I know Mr. Proctor can’t be in many places at the same time. After all, he is human. So, may I suggest, start training many others (begin with the regional, the state, and the large cities) to explain how to use this product fully and correctly.

            a.   The more the customers understand, the more they will know. The more they know, the more they will use the product. The more they use the product, the more they will enjoy it. And the more they enjoy it, the more they will buy and tell others it. Faithlife can’t loose. It’s a win-win.
            b.   The same way Faithlife invest in development and research, they need to invest (more) in their customers (printed manuals or many more bootcamps [free of charge]).

            10.                “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain.”[1]

            Graham Criddle shared that “there is a range of training materials and manuals are available.” And he is right, but at a cost. Why do I have to spend more money to learn how to use my new car or TV monitor? I should be able to gain greater knowledge by spending more time with my manual and not spending more money.  If I have misrepresented any factual points in away, I stand to be corrected. Peace!



            [1] The New King James Version. (1982). (Dt 25:4). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

            Posts 8967
            RIP
            Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 11:01 AM

            Floyd Johnson:
            It is time for FaithLife to add a team of technical writers to the staff with the specific task of creating and maintaining user manuals - which could be accessed on-line via the Internet or on the local machine.

            The specific thread title is not asking for an online manual but a hardcopy version. I am afraid it would be obsolete before it left the printer.

            Logos 7 Collectors Edition

            Posts 3148
            Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 11:08 AM

            Super.Tramp:
            The specific thread title is not asking for an online manual but a hardcopy version

            But an online version that could be *printed by the user* would be better than what we have now.

            (And by its nature, it could be kept up-to-date.)

            This isn't a great deal different than the help files. But they are not printer-friendly and are far from comprehensive. In particular, they don't have worked examples. They sometimes have lists of jargon or coding, but this is often obscure, disconnected from an application, and difficult for the non-expert to see how to put into use.

            My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

            Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

            Posts 6784
            Forum MVP
            Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 11:11 AM

            Super.Tramp:
            The specific thread title is not asking for an online manual but a hardcopy version. I am afraid it would be obsolete before it left the printer.

            Imagine the poor soul who purchases the manual three months after it is released, only to discover that it does not cover many of the software features.

            Look at the changes in the Release notes since the software was released in November of last year. https://wiki.logos.com/Logos_6_Release_Notes 

            Lynden Williams Communications

            Posts 3148
            Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 11:16 AM

            Lynden Williams:
            Imagine the poor soul who purchases the manual three months after it is released, only to discover that it does not cover many of the software features.

            That's simply not a valid criticism, Lynden. Even the wiki still has large sections from the L4 days.

            I bought MP's Logos I and II manuals back during L5's tenure. Even as new features were introduced, those manuals were very helpful. And they were only about three-quarters of an inch thick.

            Plus, as new features are added, a page printed from a website can be added to a manual in a binder. We managed to send men to the moon using that method. It would work here.

            My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

            Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

            Posts 1028
            David Carter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 11:19 AM

            Charles McNeil:
            If God can give man a written manual (The Ten-Commandments) for living, why can't FaithLife give a written manual for the Logos Software to newcomers and especially, to those with large libraries? 

            Maybe because Faithlife are not God ?

            Frankly, as other users have said, one major problem with a printed manual is that it would be out of date before it left the printers, such is the speed of the development of the software

            Posts 3148
            Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 11:22 AM

            Just for some perspective, here's my manual (described elsewhere). It ain't overwhelming. It is printed on scratch paper, so it is front-side only. Printed f/b, it would only be a tad over half-an-inch thick.

            My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

            Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

            Posts 237
            C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 11:26 AM

            Super.Tramp:
            a hardcopy version. I am afraid it would be obsolete before it left the printer.

            With all due respect Sir, why are they selling these?

            Furthermore, Graham Criddle said earlier today that there is “A range of training materials and manuals are available” at https://www.logos.com/products/search?Series+%2f+Sets=MP+Seminars 

            Please not number # 4 and # 7. They are paper-Hardcopies. Why would Faithlife sell out-of-date or "obsolete" materials to its customers seeking clarity of instructions to use what they have invested so much in?

             

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            Posts 3148
            Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 11:27 AM

            David Carter:
            Frankly, as other users have said, one major problem with a printed manual is that it would be out of date before it left the printers

            That criticism has already been addressed, David.

            Besides, a manual for a software program is no where near as complicated as a manual for life (TIC).

            My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

            Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

            Posts 237
            C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 11:38 AM

            David Carter:
            Maybe because Faithlife are not God ?

            It's not "maybe", it's a fact! No one is asking or expecting Faithlife to be Divine or work a miracle. They just have to be fair, reasonable, and helpful as possible to customers who have invested greatly in their product.

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