Hebrew Audio Bible - Another Appeal

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It seems to me that all the varied opinions on this thread will not help to give Logos a push in the right direction. There are at least four pronunciation schemes that I have located for Hebrew. Each one is promoted as "correct" for its own reasons by someone. As a professor of Biblical Hebrew with students on track to move into other programs that use different schemes, I intentionally expose my students to the fact that there is no one correct way to pronounce Hebrew--and there wasn't one correct way in Biblical times. (Sibboleth/Shibboleth, anyone?) None of us will ever agree on the best pronunciation scheme. Why not get behind Logos' efforts to license products? Who knows? Perhaps one day they will have available multiple audio products that use different pronunciations and it will be possible to choose the one that best fits your teaching scenario?

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 3 2019 5:04 PM

Sarah Blake LaRose:

There are at least four pronunciation schemes that I have located for Hebrew. Each one is promoted as "correct"...

Most people would be satisfied with one of the major schemes, although many would love to have a natural reading voice (hence the insistence on a native speaker).

God forbid a Klingon accent or, worse, a Texan incantation.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 3 2019 6:22 PM

PetahChristian:
Have any decisions been made?

I'd like to know this too.

Denise:
better get it right-ish.

That gives some room for interpretation. Wink

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Posts 435
Adam Olean | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 3 2019 7:10 PM

David Paul:

The reason I have spoken against production of a Hebrew pronunciation guide is because pronunciations that are demonstrably false have been given legitimacy by people who honestly ought to know better. I already posted screen shots of grammars in Logos that flatly indicate that both the ך and ח have the same pronunciation, which is emphatically false. When it comes to pronunciation of Biblical Hebrew, the inmates often seem to be running the asylum. Buth may have a well-regarded reputation, as may the guy in the above clip, but they DO NOT speak Biblical Hebrew. Let me say that I don't claim to know with 100% certainty and precision what BH sounded like in David's day...but I and a few others know for certain what it didn't sound like in many cases, and many of those false pronunciations seem to inevitably end up in Logos resources. Just leave it alone. It's far better for people to fend for themselves (and do the kind of research that will establish much of what I've said here) than to swallow whole numerous anachronisms without a second of thought...because "published FL authority" says so.

David, you state a number of true things about Early Biblical Hebrew pronunciation(s), including things that Randall Buth himself would actually agree with! I've also said before that a reconstructed Early Biblical Hebrew pronunciation system and audio recording is a worthy goal. Much work has been done, even if there are remaining unknowns, complications, and difficult choices (practically speaking). I just wanted to add that if anyone takes a little time to read Buth, he is personally not unclear about what pronunciation system he is and is not using. He uses an Oriental Israeli Hebrew pronunciation system, which retains some archaic features from First and/or Second Temple periods and is used regularly for reading the Tanakh in Israel today (see link below for some brief descriptions from the horse's own mouth). Actually, you could cite him in support of your argument even though you two come to different conclusions on what pronunciation system to begin with pedagogically speaking, based on different criteria and/or weighing some criteria differently. I was going to say more, but I'll just link to past discussion for those who want to know a little bit more about Buth's understanding, motivations, and choices.

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/151448/927601.aspx#927601 

As for Faithlife's Hebrew Audio Pronunciations product-page, I agree that it would be helpful if it gave some indication of what pronunciation system is used within the product description.

Posts 435
Adam Olean | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 3 2019 7:12 PM

Lee:

Sarah Blake LaRose:

There are at least four pronunciation schemes that I have located for Hebrew. Each one is promoted as "correct"...

Most people would be satisfied with one of the major schemes, although many would love to have a natural reading voice (hence the insistence on a native speaker).

God forbid a Klingon accent or, worse, a Texan incantation.

Lee, you said it, not I! I wouldn't want to offend any Klingons ... Yes

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 3 2019 11:25 PM

Lee:

Sarah Blake LaRose:

There are at least four pronunciation schemes that I have located for Hebrew. Each one is promoted as "correct"...

Most people would be satisfied with one of the major schemes, although many would love to have a natural reading voice (hence the insistence on a native speaker).

If Logos will provide all four, how many of us would buy all of them? Cool

Learning the modern pronunciation would be most useful (in case some of us end up working in Israel) - although I appreciate Buth's views, and also other schemes..

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 3 2019 11:57 PM

One old suggestion came also into my mind: do it in small increments, according to the incoming funding. Smile

At first, just a few well selected chapters, and all known schemes, so that the production cost will be affordable and the users can test and choose. 

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 4 2019 1:22 AM

deleted.

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EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 5 2019 4:18 PM

Lee:

Most people would be satisfied with one of the major schemes ...

I certainly would.

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 5 2019 11:40 PM

EastTN:
 
Lee:

Most people would be satisfied with one of the major schemes ...

I certainly would.

I agree.

I calculated that reading the OT in Hebrew would take 150 hours. It is not a lifetime project like writing a book (for some).  

Recording in a studio, marking the page breaks and other audio work will take much longer, but is not beyond possible. Many small translation teams in the jungle are currently doing similar work successfully.

There is no need to wait until everything is recorded and perfected, having one book to start would give enough to do (listening learning, complaining)  for a long time. Geeked

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 2 2019 1:26 AM

Any news?

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John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 26 2019 3:04 AM

Hi,

I'd still like to purchase a good quality Hebrew Audio Bible from Logos - any chance of this? I already have the Greek one and the pronunciation for both.

Cheers,

John

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 151
Rob Lambert | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 26 2019 5:35 AM

Please.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 27 2019 5:00 AM

Veli Voipio:
Learning the modern pronunciation would be most useful (in case some of us end up working in Israel) - although I appreciate Buth's views, and also other schemes.

I personally wouldn't mind knowing Modern Hebrew, but I wouldn't for a second think I was learning a language that was appropriate for use in a setting where Biblical Hebrew was being employed (i.e. Biblical studies). I think that most scholars would acknowledge that as well. Not that there is no overlap, but the variations are significant. If you want to learn MH, try Pimsleur, or Babbel, or Rosetta Stone, or the like, and/or move to Israel.

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 27 2019 5:29 AM

I'm glad people want to make an effort where Hebrew is concerned. I tried to learn it on my own, but the learning curve was too steep for a variety of reasons (right-to-left, similarities of characters, vowel point system, gutturals, 'aleph & `ayin, etc.), so I ended up taking a two-semester course in BH to help me. I was over the hump by the second or third class, but...I also very quickly started to notice what seemed to be anomalies. I won't get into the weeds on those points, but these issues prompted plenty of personal study and research, which in time lead me to the conclusions and opinions I now have. My point is, that process of responding to dissonance (and the worn shoe leather of personal research) led me to my current position. I didn't just swallow whole some pre-packaged "this is the way it is" program. My gripe is that most instruction in BH begins with an open acknowledgment of capitulation to "ease" over "accuracy". Since both OT & NT concepts of sin are based upon the concept of accuracy and the lack thereof, I find these capitulations disturbing.

That said (and I think I said this before in the forums), as long as whatever system FL chooses to use is OPENLY ACKNOWLEDGED TO BE A COMPROMISE (with other more accurate and in-depth systems being available for those who wish to search them out), then I would be okay with that...fwiw. Of course, I don't think my opinion will ultimately matter much if at all--FL will do whatever it does, and I seriously doubt they will feel any motivation to call the legitimacy of their effort into question with a mea culpa in the Introduction. But I'm always happy to be proven wrong, so we'll see.

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Jack Hairston | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 27 2019 9:39 AM

Yes What you said, David.

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 27 2019 2:20 PM

David Paul:
I wouldn't for a second think I was learning a language that was appropriate for use in a setting where Biblical Hebrew was being employed (i.e. Biblical studies). I think that most scholars would acknowledge that as well.

It's interesting to note that, almost exclusively, it scholars who don't speak modern Hebrew who downplay it's role and helpfulness in understanding Biblical Hebrew. (I'm not a scholar so I'm "just" making observations!) The scholars I've talked to who do speak modern Hebrew (including Randall Buth), almost universally maintain that speaking modern Hebrew is critical to having a really good grasp on BH. I believe this is due to the "intuition" one develops in conversational language. One anecdote from a friend of mine who learned modern Hebrew as part of her BH studies: During a consultant checking session, the consultant kept insisting that a particular Hebrew structure is used in a certain way and has a specific meaning. My friend disagreed based on intuition, so they agreed to research. Lo and behold, the intuition was born out irrefutably in computer aided research, debunking a widely held assumption.

Wow, that's a long-winded way to demonstrate one of the reasons I support using modern Hebrew pronunciation for an audio narration of the Hebrew Bible.

Aside: It's not for no reason that Buth is running his school in Israel!

Posts 3685
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 28 2019 8:49 AM

For those struggling to get into Hebrew, Rosetta Stone is a really helpful solution. Of course, since it is designed for modern Hebrew learners, the vocabulary is not particularly biblical (e.g., coffee, telephone, computers, restaurant situations, etc). However, there is also shared vocabulary (common adjectives, ubiquitous nouns like ish or isha, articles, etc). And more than that, RS is based on "catching the language:" there is no memorisation involved AT ALL. So this is a great tool to use to get your feet wet, gain confidence you can do this, get used to RTL reading and writing. Logos tools and resources designed for learning biblical Hebrew can then be used complementarily. 

I really recommend it. They have a free demo and you can subscribe for just a month to see how it goes. Personally I have loved using it on a tablet and even my young son enjoyed doing some of it with me because it is so easy and well done.

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 12 2019 11:53 AM

Reuben Helmuth:

One anecdote from a friend of mine who learned modern Hebrew as part of her BH studies: During a consultant checking session, the consultant kept insisting that a particular Hebrew structure is used in a certain way and has a specific meaning. My friend disagreed based on intuition, so they agreed to research. Lo and behold, the intuition was born out irrefutably in computer aided research, debunking a widely held assumption.

Agreeing with you.  No names needed, but it would be great to know the linguistic principle unearthed in this episode.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 13 2019 5:17 AM

Francis:
I really recommend it. They have a free demo and you can subscribe for just a month to see how it goes. Personally I have loved using it on a tablet and even my young son enjoyed doing some of it with me because it is so easy and well done.

Thanks for the personal recommendation. I've often wondered if this would be of any value and if it is worth considering.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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