Linux version of Logos Bible Software

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This post has 545 Replies | 33 Followers

Posts 26
sansom48 | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 18 2016 10:44 AM

Ok, being that I am virtually a coding idiot and know nothing, does Window's recent openness impact this idea of having Logos on Linux at all? I am talking about their recent announcments about PowerShell and Bash. Again, I know nothing, so maybe it has no impact on this project, but I figured I would ask. 

https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/powershell-is-open-sourced-and-is-available-on-linux/

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 18 2016 1:09 PM

sansom48:

Ok, being that I am virtually a coding idiot and know nothing, does Window's recent openness impact this idea of having Logos on Linux at all? I am talking about their recent announcments about PowerShell and Bash. Again, I know nothing, so maybe it has no impact on this project, but I figured I would ask. 

https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/powershell-is-open-sourced-and-is-available-on-linux/ 

Microsoft's open source port of .NET Core would allow Logos resources to be downloaded and indexed.

However, WPF (Windows Presentation Foundation) road map does not include open source => 

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dotnet/2014/11/12/the-roadmap-for-wpf/

Without open source alternative for WPF, the Logos, Verbum, and Noet client applications for Windows cannot be displayed.

Blog => https://www.quora.com/Now-that-Microsoft-will-support-NET-on-Linux-and-OS-X-will-WPF-applications-soon-run-on-all-desktop-platforms

points out that porting WPF from Windows to open source is impractical.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 50
David J. Ring, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 18 2016 3:32 PM

Perhaps an open source system for user books, but the Linux version of Logos has to allow the publishers and Logos itself to make money so they can continue development and pay their employees.

If Logos could be made to work in WINE all would be well.  I suspect that it's the security aspects that cause Logos to fail.  If a Linux coded program could run as a proprietary application - basically a book and payment SAFE and hook into the Windows program under WINE for Logos, or an open source version of Logos.

The difficult part is getting a high quality program running in Linux.  Linux has so many superior features that I'm not going to sing it's praises, but I will say that I have a proprietary Office Suite, and OCR program, printer drivers, and modem (dial up) drivers that I have to pay for - not much but about $150, and I pay because they are better than the free drivers.  They're inexpensive because of the free competition but also because they're popular purchases.

Having Logos in Windows would mean I could completely cut the cord with Windows, the ONLY thing I need Windows 10 for in Logos.

So 99% of the time I run Linux and in the morning for bible study, I run Windows so I can run Logos.  Then I reboot and my computer stays in Linux. I do like the fact that if I have to do something in Linux, I don't have to buy a $150 program just for that one job.  Linux has everything of decent but not specialist quality available for free, and a very few apps for specialist quality that are sold for moderate and expensive prices.  I have a few of the moderate and would not hesitate to buy the expensive ones if I needed them and could afford them!

My server runs Linux and has been up for several years without a crash.

Best wishes,

David

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 18 2016 8:35 PM

David J. Ring, Jr.:
If Logos could be made to work in WINE all would be well. ...

Open source community does not have an alternative for WPF (Windows Presentation Foundation) so WINE is not viable for the Logos, Verbum, and NOET windows applications that use WPF for client interaction and display.

David J. Ring, Jr.:
Having Logos in Windows would mean I could completely cut the cord with Windows, the ONLY thing I need Windows 10 for in Logos.

Logos Now subscribers have access to https://app.logos.com that Faithlife Corporation is developing to provide online web browser application access to your library, which would be usable on many platforms, including open source distributions.

If hardware has enough resources, then one option is using Oracle's Virtual Box to run Windows 10 (with WPF) and Logos in a virtual machine on an open source distribution.

Another option is a refurbished Windows 10 desktop from Micro Center for $ 99.99

=> http://www.microcenter.com/product/461521/ThinkCentre_M58_Desktop_Computer_Off_Lease_Refurbished

that is configured for remote desktop use from open source. The Lenovo M58 bios has an option for headless "server" operation plus has two open memory slots so RAM can be upgraded from 4 GB. For Logos use, would recommend replacing 250GB hard disk with a Solid State Disk: e.g.

240GB => http://www.microcenter.com/product/465269/240GB_SSDNow_UV400_25_SSD for $ 54.99

OR 480GB => http://www.microcenter.com/product/460569/480GB_SATA_III_60_Gb-s_25_Solid_State_Drive_(SSD) for $ 109.99

FYI: Clonezilla could be useful for copying disk partitions. Replacing 250 GB disk with 240 GB SSD means using Windows 10 to shrink C: partition by 10 GB before cloning.

David J. Ring, Jr.:
The difficult part is getting a high quality program running in Linux. 

Apple includes many open source projects in macOS => https://www.apple.com/opensource/

The macOS kernel is a BSD variant => https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/darwin-kernel

Logos, Verbum, and Noet have macOS high quality applications. Caveat: macOS hardware models are long overdue for refresh.

LibreOffice is a quality open source office suite => https://www.libreoffice.org/ that can be used on macOS, open source distrubutions, and Windows.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 47
aaylnx | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 18 2016 9:27 PM

I have been watching this thread and keeping up with this issue for a long time.  The only way to use Logos under Linux is in a VM.  I have run Logos in VMware and in Virtualbox.  Performance is better in VMware.  However, KVM beats VMware and Virtualbox for performance.  For those of you who are looking to run Logos in a VM, try running Windows under KVM.  It really does perform quite a bit better.  Of course you will take a performance hit, however, given modern computing speed/performance - the hit isn't too bad.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 19 2016 4:28 AM

aaylnx:
However, KVM beats VMware and Virtualbox for performance.

Found an example of enabling KVM in VirtualBox 5.0 that improved performance => https://github.com/geerlingguy/drupal-vm/issues/212

VirtualBox has paravirtualization options => https://www.virtualbox.org/manual/ch10.html#gimproviders that includes KVM and Hyper-V.

VirtualBox 5.1.0 announcement on 12 Jul 2016 => https://blogs.oracle.com/virtualization/entry/oracle_vm_virtualbox_5_14 included

Improved Performance: Significantly improved performance for multi-CPU virtual machines and networking.

Apologies: not know how significant of performance improvement.

Thankful for VirtualBox being actively maintained by Oracle, which is free for personal use while Enterprise edition has commercial license and support.

aaylnx:
The only way to use Logos under Linux is in a VM.

Thankful for https://app.logos.com being developed. To use all Logos capabilities in an open source distribution on one hardware host, currently need a VM.

If using two hardware hosts, then one can run an open source distribution while the other runs Windows (or macOS). On the open source host, can use a remote desktop client (e.g. NoMachine NX) => http://www.techradar.com/us/news/software/applications/7-of-the-best-linux-remote-desktop-clients-716346 Caveat: reliable network is needed between the hardware hosts for remote desktop control (so Logos running on your Windows box is being used on your open source distribution).

Keep Smiling Smile

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Kevin Byford (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 19 2016 4:27 PM

aaylnx:

I have been watching this thread and keeping up with this issue for a long time.  The only way to use Logos under Linux is in a VM.  I have run Logos in VMware and in Virtualbox.  Performance is better in VMware.  However, KVM beats VMware and Virtualbox for performance.  For those of you who are looking to run Logos in a VM, try running Windows under KVM.  It really does perform quite a bit better.  Of course you will take a performance hit, however, given modern computing speed/performance - the hit isn't too bad.

I completely agree with your assessment; KVM is faster than any other hypervisor currently available on Linux, free or not.

Posts 18
Jesse Steele | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 9:27 PM

"Our solution for Linux users will likely be our web app at app.logos.com. If it's full-featured enough, will this meet your needs? Or is offline support a concern?"

Offline support is a HUGE concern. Generally, I think just having search and most basic access is the important part for starters.

Also, Ubuntu/Linux is the future. It continually grows its market share every year while other platforms shrink.

And, Ubuntu/Linux is so easy for your part. Theoretically, you could just provide a basic SDK for login-security and the growing community of Ubuntu users might do most of the programming and maintenance themselves via GitHub... So, the Logos engine for Ubuntu could be "open source" with the content or some cloud features as the proprietary part. And, why not allow the engine to read epub or "open" versions of books for people who want to write their own stuff and share with other Logos customers?

If you cool people at Logos are too busy, then developing for Ubuntu is actually perfect for you because the Ubuntu community does actually gladly work together to make and change their own software. Give us an SDK to access our secure-purchased stuff and let the community write an "open source" engine. Give up some control of the engine itself, or let people at least contribute to a GitHub project that you approve, so that you can reach more people. Like the gospel, let the people work in community. :-)

Posts 18
Jesse Steele | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 9:37 PM

...One way you could start is to create a github.com account with a "logos" project, then put the word out "we need community developers" and the people you need will just show up and guide and help free of charge and the whole thing might not even cost you a dime. Ubuntu users freely receive, so they freely give. Proprietary content, community-driven "open source" engine.

Posts 54
Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 10:30 PM

"Our solution for Linux users will likely be our web app at app.logos.com. If it's full-featured enough, will this meet your needs? Or is offline support a concern?"

I did not search online to find this, but I did go to app.logos.com and I logged in. It looks like access using the cloud / online only solution requires a subscription. Unsure if this subscription makes the books that I paid for available, all books, or some small subset. They do offer one month free to find out how well it works for you, but it is useless from my classroom since I do not have reliable internet from their.

When I know that I have more time, I will take a look, but, with no extra information I am hesitant. So, if y'all have a lit with information on what this makes available and the fees, let me know.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 11:18 PM

Andrew:
It looks like access using the cloud / online only solution requires a subscription.

Correct - access requires a Logos Now or Logos Cloud membership subscription

Andrew:
Unsure if this subscription makes the books that I paid for available, all books, or some small subset

The majority of books - there may be some that can't be offered in this way

Andrew:
since I do not have reliable internet from their.

That would make it a non-workable solution for you

Posts 1
James | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 9:13 AM

Has anyone tried using Logos in ReactOS? I know React is not quite stable yet but it might be an option going forward. 

Posts 50
David J. Ring, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 9:50 AM

The reason that I want Linux isn't so much that I don't want to pay for an operating system, it's because I have a rock solid operating system, and if I need a program to do something once, I'm not obliged to spend $100 for a program just to improve contrast in a photograph, we have GIMP (and GIMP for Windows!) for that.  If I need to edit a pdf file, I can use a open source program and do it, no cost to me.

I don't mind paying for good programs, I paid Softmaker for their Office program - about $60.00, I have an improved printer driver, $30.00, plus I've bought some fonts, drivers for dial-up modem from non-open source company, and other stuff for about $200.

But Linux is stable, I have a music server and it's been running for two years without crashing.

Linux is very fast even on my old hardware, dual core processor at 2MHz with 4 GB RAM.

I use Linux 99% of the time, but I have paid for two copies of Windows 10 for my two computers, laptop and server/desktop for total $200.

Plus the command line in Linux does things that are more or less cumbersome or impossible with a graphical program and it does things fast.

I only turn on Windows to read my Logos books, then I boot back into Linux.

The performance on my old hardware in Windows for Logos is sluggist at times but not too bad, but I have a feeling that if this was done in Linux it would be very fast. 

But going to ReactOS would be to add to the problem.  If I wanted to use ReactOS, I'd just run Windows.

Linux also is so much easier to maintain, I don't have to scan for viruses every day, I don't have browser hijackings, if I'm searching for information, I can use links -g or w3m browser and not be followed by twenty tracking cookies.

Im just sick of haiving my Windows computers hijacked, infected, filled with all sorts of malware - even if I just click on an interesting news story!

But NO to ReactOS.  It's Windows in different clothes.

I don't want Windows where modifying dynamic linked libraries (dll files) makes your software work only to give other software have problems.

Linux just works, and it works very well!

David

Posts 64
Eric Ross | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 10:15 AM

One question.  How is WPF running on the Mac for the Mac version of the product?

Posts 47
aaylnx | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 12:10 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus,

Have you used the aforementioned VM technologies to run Logos w/in Windows on Linux?  I've used Virtualbox, VMware, and KVM.  I have not used Xen.  I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has run Logos under Windows in Xen to hear about performance.  From experience, I can say that KVM beats Virtualbox (by a mile) and VMware (by not as much, but still significant).  The difference in terms of pure subjective feeling is huge.  Under Virtualbox, Logos is incredibly unresponsive.  In terms of stats, I found that my idle VMware image running Logos would consume 30-40% my CPU, whereas Logos running under an idle KVM image often is under 10% - sometimes just over that.  When using the VM, VMware was often between 300-400% (this is a multicore CPU mind you), whereas KVM would typically be under 100.  Sometimes to rose to the 200's under KVM when things got really busy.  I don't remember stats on memory, but I suspect there was a substantial difference.

My suspicion is that KVM is always going to perform better than some of these other competitors, because it's all completely open sourced and its all native to the Linux kernel.  You don't have to do any building/loading of kernel modules as you do with VMware and Virtualbox.  The KVM guys (fueled by a lot of Red Hat engineers I think) are just working closer to the kernel, and the open source nature of their code is probably going to always let them identify and fix various performance problems more throughly than their competitors.

If anyone is having problems generating a Windows vm using KVM, you might try installing via Gnome Boxes.  Gnome Boxes uses KVM.  If you use Ubuntu, it is available in the repositories.  It makes installing Windows very, very easy.  If you want, you can then actually then run the image created under Gnome Boxes with Virt-Manager (the KVM graphical manager).  Virt-Manager will let you configure some things that you can't (currently) do under Gnome Boxes like running a dual monitor VM.

BTW, my KVM Windows guest running Logos runs on a 2012 I7 machine with 8gigs of memory.  It's not that beefy.  I'm looking forward to building a new machine in the not so distant future, which should offer significant performance improvements.

For those people on this thread who would like Logos to opensource their engine so that a build could be made for Linux, that's a great idea, but I wouldn't hold your breath.  In my opinion Logos hasn't shown any interest in doing something like this.  I would be happy to be proven wrong, but I just don't see it.  Logos seems much more interested in their web app.  I've used it.  Honestly, I'm not holding my breath for that thing either.  It has a LONG way to go in terms of gaining feature parity with the desktop app.  Again, this is unfortunate in many ways but the best way to run Logos on a Linux box is in a vm - arguably KVM.

If you have a spare machine that you want to dedicate to Windows and Logos, a really good way to get remote access is to use Remote Desktop (RDP) which is built into Windows (sadly only Windows Professional and above).  There are other remote access options out there, but I feel that RDP simply has no real rivals.  It feels native using it remotely.  On Linux Remmina is a great RDP client.  I regularly access my KVM'd version of Windows from my Chromebook using Remmina (Remmina is installed under Crouton, a chrooted version of Linux that you can install on a Chromebook).  Performance is not bad at all using that setup.

Chime in if you have any questions about these matters.  I will try to respond.

Adam

Posts 8601
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 28 2016 2:14 PM

Eric Ross:

One question.  How is WPF running on the Mac for the Mac version of the product?

As I understand it, WPF functions are handled through Mono, a cross platform implementation of .NET.  Mono has some limitations however.

Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

Check the Wiki

Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 28 2016 2:46 PM

TCBlack:

Eric Ross:

One question.  How is WPF running on the Mac for the Mac version of the product?

As I understand it, WPF functions are handled through Mono, a cross platform implementation of .NET.  Mono has some limitations however.

Mac version of the product has different graphical user interface code since WPF (Windows Presentation Foundation) is only available in Windows (with graphical calls to Windows DirectX).  Open source community does not have an alternative for WPF => http://www.mono-project.com/docs/gui/wpf/ (Silverlight subset of WPF is available on several platforms)

Mac version uses Mono for .NET code that is shared with Windows => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/13210/102596.aspx#102596 and => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/12648/99060.aspx#99060

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Posts 3007
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 29 2016 7:45 AM

Since I don't have a clue, I'm going to ask:

Would it potentially be possible to modify the Mac version of the GUI stuff, instead of the Windows version, to create a Linux version? If not, why not?

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 29 2016 10:33 AM

James:

Has anyone tried using Logos in ReactOS? I know React is not quite stable yet but it might be an option going forward. 

Welcome Big Smile

Concur ReactOS may be an option going forward, depends on .NET Framework compatibility with Logos Bible Software.  Apologies since have not (yet) tried ReactOS.

Wikipedia article => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReactOS includes clean room reverse engineering of Windows Server 2003.

ReactOS FAQ => http://www.reactos.org/joining/faqs

ReactOS FAQ:

Ok..so what's ReactOS?

ReactOS is a free and open source operating system written from scratch. It's design is based on Windows in the same way Linux is based on Unix, however ReactOS is _not_ linux. ReactOS looks and feels like Windows, is able to your run Windows software and your Windows drivers, and is familiar for Windows users.

What are the differences between Windows and ReactOS?

There are mainly two. Firstly ReactOS is open source. Secondly ReactOS is Free. Also Windows (especially the newer versions) are known to monitor all your activity by default. So if you're concerned about your privacy or just don't want to share any personal info, we promise (and you can check our source code) that we don't track any of your data.

So...can I install ReactOS and run any software compatible with Windows on it?

That's the idea. However we highly recommend to check if your favourite apps run by trying them and reporting either your success with the community, or any problems you encounter with our task tracker. ReactOS is still an on-going project and not all the apps and drivers run perfect on it just now. The best way to check the compatibility is to install ReactOS inside a virtual machine ( a step by step and video guide can be found here) and try things for yourself. There are tons of pieces of software and, as you can imagine it's is impossible for us to try and to track them all.

June 2016 bug fix in ReactOS 4.1 enabled .NET Framework 4.0 installation => https://jira.reactos.org/browse/CORE-11266

Keep Smiling Smile

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 29 2016 10:33 AM

SineNomine:

Would it potentially be possible to modify the Mac version of the GUI stuff, instead of the Windows version, to create a Linux version? If not, why not?

+1 Yes concur with question about modifying Mac version of GUI for open source distribution(s). As a volunteer, not know Faithlife's technical reason(s) for why not.

Cocoa Programming on Ubuntu blog post on 9 Jun 2013 => https://cocoaallocinit.com/2013/06/09/cocoa-programming-on-ubuntu/

Earlier in this thread on 11 Feb 2011 => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/121/220445.aspx#220445 

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Instead of trying to get Windows user interface to run on Linux (WPF still not supported => http://www.mono-project.com/WPF ),

 

Wonder about running Mac OS X (Cocoa) interface on Linux ? => http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/Writing_portable_code

 

Keep Smiling Smile

Couple years earlier in this thread on 3 Aug 2009 => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/121/4677.aspx#4677 

William Laky:

Logos should go in the direction of cloud computing like the rest of the world. I am sure that they have already considered it. Sites like the ESV study Bible, etc, are where it will be at in the next few years.

 

- Bill

Faithlife now offers Logos Cloud => https://logoscloud.com that includes a Beta Web Browser => The Logos Web App: FAQ

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