Linux version of Logos Bible Software

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This post has 633 Replies | 43 Followers

Posts 18
Jesse Steele | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2019 12:21 AM

Andrew:
I feel like I am seeing some very strict interpretations on what is appropriate for this thread. More specifically...

Andrew has some good points. Discussion here has broken down. I have a humble request for everyone, a few points in everyone's defense first:

- VM and Android are remotely related, but still related a little. The most on-topic would probably be WINE, but not only.

- If Logos PMs don't want to put resources into helping we who spend thousands of dollars on their books, that is their prerogative; though it looks bad, Logos PMs should follow their direction.

- We need to love each other, I trust we all do.

- The Linux crowd wouldn't want Logos to necessarily do the dev, but give permission to do it themselves.

That said, Logos just isn't interested, so let's not bother them anymore. Let's take this discussion away from Logos and I'll try to organize a friendly communication with Faithlife and everyone else. To do this, I'll try to set something up somewhere, please follow me elsewhere on the Internet, usually @JesselSteele

Posts 984
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2019 1:56 AM

For me the main point of the thread was to log a desire for a Linux version of Logos but the discussion has diversified in useful ways which I would summarise as follows...

Faithlife's response is that they don't see a viable business case for a 'native' version but due to a number of factors, the web app is their response. I endorse and welcome that response... it is a huge step forward! Personally, my fav desktop environment has been kde for years but I almost always use mac os for church in order that I can have native Logos.

Then the discussion rightly diversified because many of us didn't like no / web app as an answer...

Windows in a VM is a legit solution for the well funded and yes it requires licensing but I don't think the telling off above is reasonable as it assumes that people don't understand software licensing and are 'stealing'. At my church we have 4 virtual machines running windows and all are correctly licensed. We also have 6 macs and a chrome bit.

Running the android version on linux is also a much more 'native' and offline possibility than a vm - I'm interested in this possibility but I already find the web app to be more useful for most things. I am so rarely out of range of wifi that the extra desktop functionality is desirable but offline is less of an issue to me - others will have an offline requirement.

Wine is a very worthwhile discussion. I have found wine to work 100% reliably for certain ham radio apps that I use but they are far simpler than Logos. There could easily be licensing issues with running Logos on wine in respect of its dependencies - which would need working out. My feeling is that a community effort can get the wine solution working and if we succeed, it might move the goal posts sufficiently for faithlife to become involved.

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 57
David J. Ring, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2019 3:14 AM

John,

Good post.  The only problem with a web based Logos would be those users in areas where Internet service isn't available, like merchant mariners and missionaries in deepest Western Australia.

As I mentioned running Logos in virtual machine has problems with accessibility, I think these problems would be best in another thread.

I think it's wonderful that they were mentioned because the interest in this thread shows people are interested in this, but it really belongs to the obvious alternatives like dual booting, or having another computer with Windows.

Regards,

David

Posts 884
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2019 4:02 AM

John Goodman:
Running the android version on linux is also a much more 'native' and offline possibility than a vm - I'm interested in this possibility but I already find the web app to be more useful for most things. I am so rarely out of range of wifi that the extra desktop functionality is desirable but offline is less of an issue to me - others will have an offline requirement.

If anyone like the web app (which is better than the mobile app if there’s good internet connection), you might want to turn the web app into a native-like app via Nativefier. (https://appmaker.xyz/web2desk/ also does the same thing without needing to install anything. I haven't tried it however and frankly I would only trust the one generated locally.)

Make no mistakes, it is not native in the sense that it runs without internet. It essentially is a wrapper using the Electron framework to turn any website/web-app into a standalone application. The advantage is that you can run it independent of your browser/tabs, and has a bigger “screen real estate” because there’s no toolbars up there.

Just to make sure no one misunderstand this, what I said is potentially beneficial to Linux users who already satisfied with the web app. Given Faithlife’s official position in supporting Linux is through the web app, this is a slight improvement to the official solution.

(The logic is like this: start with what Logos offers—macOS, Windows, iOS, Android, Web, (ignoring VM) eliminate all choices that cannot be run on Linux (no compatibility layer exists for macOS/iOS). Then we're left with Windows with WINE as compatibility layer, Android with Anbox as container sharing the same kernel, Web with Nativefier using Electron framework to deliver web app as desktop experience. I believe this list is an exhaustive list of what one can run Logos on Linux.)

For me I would use both—the web app in Electron when there's good internet connection and the Android app through Anbox as the fall back solution when there aren't.

John Goodman:
There could easily be licensing issues with running Logos on wine in respect of its dependencies

My guess is it's related to the DRM. If not done carefully, one can expose ways for Logos on Linux through WINE to read arbitrary unlicensed resources. This might be the reason they're reluctant to support Logos through WINE. But this is just a guess, only someone from Faithlife knows if it's true.

Another thing people might not considered is this. Although Faithlife's current position on the matter is that web app is their answer to this. Remember that it's always just a business decision which can be changed over time when the business environment changed. One reason companies might not want to support Linux is that there's so much distro (and file systems, etc.) and it can be tricky to make sure the software they release runs fine on any Linux configuration (e.g. Dropbox currently only support Ubuntu+ext4 and nothing else on Linux.) However, with the recent advances of cross-distribution applications support in Linux, namely AppImage, Snap and Flatpak, this greatly simplifies a release of Linux application, where one single distribution (say snap) can guarantee it runs on all Linux distro given they support snap (where anyone can install that on any Linux given enough time to learn.) The availability of these tools can change the "equation" in their business decision, where supporting it is not as costly in dev. time as in the past.

Posts 54
Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2019 6:14 AM

Most Android environments require Virtual Box to run because you use an emulator regardless of the emulator. Consider, for example, that the phones use a different CPU than your desktop. I have no idea how the emulators actually differ between Windows and Linux, however. 

The fact that Logos does not work with Wine is not a decision made by Logos, in fact, they really wish that it was supported, at least that has been posted by Logos previously in this thread; I think it was in this thread.... It was a while ago. 

Wine, unlike a virtual machine, implements the libraries included in Windows. This means that the program runs natively on Linux (with a little help). Logos does not work because they keep using the latest greatest features that are not yet supported in Wine. I gave up on that years ago so I have no idea which libraries are causing problems today and I could be completely wrong (see https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=771 and https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=36273). If thel ink is to be believed, if you go back to the 2016 release of Logos, two people reported it as functional.

I think that Logos 8 was released end of last year, perhaps a good start is to create an entry on the Wine site for logos 8. Frankly, I am surprised that version 7 was listed at even the bronze level. 

Posts 16
Rik Shaw | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2019 8:35 AM

Hey everyone,

For some of us the need to run natively (via Wine) in Linux is because we are supporting hundreds of mother-tongue bible translators using Linux because it is free to share and free for us to customize to make it simple for the users plus highly resistant toward viruses.  Fonts, keyboards, translation software ALL pre-installed and thus our IT much more effective with support and users are MUCH more effective with their work.

Adding a full Virtual Machine would be too challenging for these beginning tech users, plus on a single laptop with 1366 x 768 resolution it is hard enough without introducing VM window management.

Anyway, I am the one that has made it "part way" with Logos 7 running in WINE.  I am trying Logos 8 now but hitting the same roadblock(s) as noted here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Gms_Bc2Q_OOH3G5lmP6twXnqiSWxrFFT7lCN3nRyymw/edit

Please contribute to testing as able and hopefully we can get past this memory reading error!  Bradley Grainger, FL developer, has contributed to that document and is willing to help but we need to get him better bug reports and traces so that he has something to work with.

Regards from Ethiopia, Rik

Posts 16
Rik Shaw | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2019 8:41 AM

Hey everyone,

For some of us the need to run natively (via Wine) in Linux is because we are supporting hundreds of mother-tongue bible translators using Linux because it is free to share and free for us to customize to make it simple for the users plus highly resistant toward viruses.  Fonts, keyboards, translation software ALL pre-installed and thus our IT much more effective with support and users are MUCH more effective with their work.

Adding a full Virtual Machine would be too challenging for these beginning tech users, plus on a single laptop with 1366 x 768 resolution it is hard enough without introducing VM window management.

Anyway, I am the one that has made it "part way" with Logos 7 running in WINE.  I am trying Logos 8 now but hitting the same roadblock(s) as noted here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Gms_Bc2Q_OOH3G5lmP6twXnqiSWxrFFT7lCN3nRyymw/edit

Please contribute to testing as able and hopefully we can get past this memory reading error!  Bradley Grainger, FL developer, has contributed to that document and is willing to help but we need to get him better bug reports and traces so that he has something to work with.

Regards from Ethiopia, Rik

Posts 1418
Forum MVP
Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2019 9:50 AM

Denise:
FL is porting (as we speak)  their web app to the desktop!

Sounds like eternal punishment

Logos is compiled to PC and Mac.

But for example Chrome (and also other software) is compiled to PC, Mac, Linux and Android. Indifferent

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

Posts 1889
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2019 12:06 PM

Mark:
This is quite sad. You are welcome to your 2 cents.  But it is wrong to impose it on others.

I'm not imposing my 2 cents on you by stating my point of view any more than you are imposing your 2 cents on me by stating your point of view.

I've followed this thread from its beginning. I've used Linux since the early 2000s. My objection is to FL expending its limited resources on a port. I'd prefer speed, stability, and features in the existing desktop app. FL's answer for Linux users is the web app. That's my opinion. I understand others differ.

Donnie

Posts 16
Rik Shaw | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2019 11:02 PM

Sorry for the previous double post, our internet is poor enough that I thought it got stuck trying to submit so accidentally re-posted.

Anyway, I just got done trying Logos 8 with Wine in Ubuntu (Wasta-Linux) 18.04.2.  Similar challenge, but the crash output seems a bit more clear in confirming that it is indees something in interrogating the resource files that crashes.  I posted that to the Google Doc linked above.  So I'll keep trying!  Bradley Grainger replied to a personal message saying the following:

"It doesn't immediately give me a clue as to what's going wrong. The last managed method on the call stack ends up invoking a lot of native code; that's a fairly large surface area to look at."

Here is the beginning of the crash for those that are interested:

Unhandled Exception: System.AccessViolationException: Attempted to read or write protected memory. This is often an indication that other memory is corrupt.

  at Libronix.DigitalLibrary.Resources.Logos.NativeMethods.SinaiInterop_TryGetResourceIdAndVersion(SafeILicenseManagerHandle pLicenseManager, String pszFilePath, String& strResourceId, String&strResourceVersion)

Posts 984
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 15 2019 6:03 AM

Denise:
FL is porting (as we speak)  their web app to the desktop!

I can't find this original statement using the forum search? I'm interested... how do we know this? It might be a very good approach...

Thanks,

John

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 8010
LogosEmployee

John Goodman:

Denise:
FL is porting (as we speak)  their web app to the desktop!

I can't find this original statement using the forum search? I'm interested... how do we know this? It might be a very good approach...

It's not true.

(Denise's statements are sometimes very cryptic, so it's hard to know exactly what she meant. Maybe she was referring to the increased use of web-based technologies in the desktop application, e.g., the home page is written using HTML? Or that the new Notes Tool came out on the web first, then was added to the desktop? But this wasn't a port of the web app to the desktop; this was a ground-up rewrite for both platforms, that just happened to ship on the web first.)

Posts 1889
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 18 2019 6:01 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
Denise's statements are sometimes very cryptic

#Understatement

#ThatsBeingGenerous

:)

-Donnie

Posts 123
Chris Belmonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 15 2019 9:35 AM

Any recent wine progress?

Posts 1945
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 15 2019 9:41 AM

Chris, you will find the status of wine if you just look at this thread briefly

Posts 17956
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 15 2019 10:09 AM

Rik Shaw:
For some of us the need to run natively (via Wine) in Linux is because we are supporting hundreds of mother-tongue bible translators using Linux because it is free to share and free for us to customize to make it simple for the users plus highly resistant toward viruses.  Fonts, keyboards, translation software ALL pre-installed and thus our IT much more effective with support and users are MUCH more effective with their work.

Windows alternative for running Linux is cygwin => https://www.cygwin.com/ that could be used to compile hundreds of mother-tongue bible translators. X-Windows configuration has several window manager choices, which can include sharing clipboard with Windows.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 57
David J. Ring, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 15 2019 10:47 AM

Although people have posted about WINE and Logos (Windows) compatibility, I've not seen any update. I believe there was talk about one of the needed libraries being ported to Linux which the person was very excited about.

Regards,

David

Posts 884
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 15 2019 1:42 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Rik Shaw:
For some of us the need to run natively (via Wine) in Linux is because we are supporting hundreds of mother-tongue bible translators using Linux because it is free to share and free for us to customize to make it simple for the users plus highly resistant toward viruses. Fonts, keyboards, translation software ALL pre-installed and thus our IT much more effective with support and users are MUCH more effective with their work.

Windows alternative for running Linux is cygwin => https://www.cygwin.com/ that could be used to compile hundreds of mother-tongue bible translators. X-Windows configuration has several window manager choices, which can include sharing clipboard with Windows.

Keep Smiling Smile

WSL (windows Subsystem for Linux, also has many names due to poor marketing) can be better if it works.

But honestly i don’t think any Unix-like OS users can settle with a Windows setup that happen to be able to run like one. It has many problems. Stability, and the frequency of mandatory updates, etc. are very problematic. See more from https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.en.html

Moreover Unix-like OS users probably like to be able to manage everything through scripts and command lines, all using bash or similar shells. Now probably some Windows guru can also manage there OS using Powershell, but arguably it is not as powerful and most importantly it is an "alien" thing to learn (for most people educated in the U.S. to learn programming, they learn something like bash, not powershell.)

And also one can never beat something like Linux for efficiency, reliability, customizability, light-weightiness, etc. eg some Linux users might complain about a certain distribution to be not efficient in memory use but even in those cases we're talking about sub-1GB usually.

For most people who like Unix-like OS But next some proprietary GUI softwares, macOS is the answer, not Windows. There's a similar article from GNU like an article above regarding macOS but the list is much shorter and points less severe. The recent advances in package managers by homebrew and homebrew cask made managing packages purely from the command lines doable. Most things are scriptable thanks to bash, and AppleScript integration from "traditional macOS softwares (not Logos though.) Most if not all common GNU softwares can be compiled, many of them through package manager homebrew, on the macOS, including GUI softwares, file browser, etc.

Some might say Mac hardwares are expensive to own, its true to a certain extent, but often the total cost of ownership is lesser, because its depreciate less steep, perhaps because its hardware is more reliable (I know someone is looking at those butterfly keyboard) and its software can run on hardwares half a decade old. I know it is hard to beat Linux in this regard tough. I met a senior scientist (meaning he's definitely not short in money) still using a notebook from like the 2000s.

So I think to someone using Linux, macOS is a better compromise than Windows. But I bet to some it is still an insult to recommend such because they want to run Linux, not some Linux
"clone". On the other hand, even if Logos releases a Linux version, it will still feel so much out of place—for one I don't think they are going to include a scriptable interface to interact with Logos. And Logos' custom UI makes it feel so out of place to any customizable one might have applied. (It is out of place on macOS, how much more it will be on Linux.)

Posts 17956
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 17 2019 10:40 PM

Kolen Cheung:
WSL (windows Subsystem for Linux, also has many names due to poor marketing) can be better if it works.

WSL was released on 2 Aug 2016, which was a couple months after my use of Windows ceased. Previous experience using Microsoft's System for Unix Applications (SUA) and cygwin found cygwin easier to configure and use since SUA was a bit quirky.

Kolen Cheung:
Some might say Mac hardwares are expensive to own, its true to a certain extent, but often the total cost of ownership is lesser, because its depreciate less steep, perhaps because its hardware is more reliable (I know someone is looking at those butterfly keyboard) and its software can run on hardwares half a decade old.

Thankful for late 2014 model 27" iMac with 5K display for my primary Logos & Verbum use (running macOS Mojave 10.14.4 in dark mode). Thankful for mid 2013 MacBook Air running macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 for portable Logos & Verbum use (approaching six years old).

Some Apple Mac models have competitive pricing while others models have luxury pricing. Refurbished Mac's have 15% or more discount => https://www.apple.com/shop/refurbished/mac

Kolen Cheung:
So I think to someone using Linux, macOS is a better compromise than Windows. But I bet to some it is still an insult to recommend such because they want to run Linux, not some Linux "clone".

Concur plus technically macOS uses Darwin that includes Berkeley Software Distribution (BSD) process model. BSD predates Linux by 14 years. Apple includes over 200 open source projects in macOS => https://opensource.apple.com/ albeit user interface Cocoa is proprietary closed source.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 884
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 17 2019 11:30 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
WSL was released on 2 Aug 2016, which was a couple months after my use of Windows ceased. Previous experience using Microsoft's System for Unix Applications (SUA) and cygwin found cygwin easier to configure and use since SUA was a bit quirky.

When it was first released it ain't very good. But for now it is quite good. IO has high overhead. So for non-IO intensive stuffs WSL is the current best bet (if the application one needs runs, e.g. exclude GUI except if they want to set up their own XWindow setup.)

A lightweight VM setup can uses the included HyperV (may be Pro, or Enterprise/Education only).

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Concur plus technically macOS uses Darwin that includes Berkeley Software Distribution (BSD) process model. BSD predates Linux by 14 years. Apple includes over 200 open source projects in macOS => https://opensource.apple.com/ albeit user interface Cocoa is proprietary closed source.

No one uses Darwin by itself and few uses BSD as desktop. Some do, but as this thread shows even Linux has so much friction from companies to support, FreeBSD desktop users are very brave (except for those FreeNAS users, where most technically aren't using them as desktop anyway.)

Apple/Mac's open source practice are not good though. The choice of open source components are more like because they are good but not because they are open source. Darwin project effectively is Apple only project because as I heard in the early days of Darwin people try to contribute and essentially most ideas are rejected by their core team at Apple and so no one wants to develop for it anymore.

Also the GNU GPLv3 situation on Apple is very bad. GPL softwares on macOS like bash freeze at 2007 and no upgrade ever since. That leads to some good things like the advances in LLVM and clang compilers, etc.

Also the recent dropping support of NVidia driver on Mojave is not good too.

Apple has its own agenda, when it is of its interests, advances happened at crazy speed, short time frame. When it isn't, it just got frozen, or even completely cut off. Like whole team of automation just disappeared.

So while macOS is the current best compromise to have something Unix-like and most Linux tools available (most gnu tools can be installed via say homebrew), people really need something like Linux when Apple's agenda gone too far from theirs. (And obviously Windows won't be the answer, for many people wanting to have a Unix-like OS.)

Think about the situation of Steam and SteamOS. It offers people a platform to use their product directly without relying on anything else (i.e. no cost attached to the OS it relies on.) Logos could do the same thing here. For some people Logos could be the only OS they need. They boot into it and the only thing they use is Logos (notes jot in it, sermon created it in, browsing wikipedia with it, etc.) Imagine one day the only licensing fee a Christian need to pay is to Logos and Logos alone. Logos might think the Linux market is too small. Or they could think that among the Bible software companies, they are the only one big enough to becomes someone's only software to run. In order to do that, they need a Linux version.

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