Does Anyone Find This A Little Disturbing?

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Posts 787
James Hiddle | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Apr 14 2016 3:55 PM

That Vyrso would sell something from a cult leader. Here - https://vyrso.com/products/search?Author=17446|Mike+Bickle are books that are from Mike Bickle who is the founder and leader of the cult group IHOP(International House Of Prayer). Here are some info on IHOP:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/1212-international-house-of-prayer-ihop

http://www.solasisters.com/2011/06/former-ihop-member-explains-why-ihop.html

https://carm.org/ihop

Can anyone explain this to me? Why would FL promote and sell material from a cult leader?

Posts 3938
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2016 4:06 PM

They sell primary religious texts for many groups from the bhagavad gita to the quran, to JW works, and I think watchman nee stuff.

Just because we disagree with them doesn't mean they don't have value in our libraries, and further one mans trash is anothers treasure.

Just glad that its in Vyrso, not logos.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 787
James Hiddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2016 4:58 PM

abondservant:
Just because we disagree with them doesn't mean they don't have value in our libraries, and further one mans trash is anothers treasure.

Well glad someone saw something that I didn't thanks for that and you have a point. So do you think I overreacted?

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2016 5:22 PM

James Hiddle:
So do you think I overreacted?

No, you did not overreact. You just have a different view on what the website should carry. 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 1724
Robert M. Warren | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2016 5:24 PM

James Hiddle:
So do you think I overreacted?

Not sure about that, but I have noticed the dichotomy whereby positive suggestions / appraisals of resource are generally approved of, while their negative counterparts are generally not; even though both approaches are usually expressions of theology, which are not allowed on the Forums.

No longer actively posting. Please remind T-Bone to take his meds.

Posts 3183
Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2016 5:57 PM

Interesting post. I guess the way I look at it is in this way. I personally don't think Bickle is a cult leader. My thinking is if we are to combat heresy or any other type of teaching that goes against the Word we need to know what those who we oppose teach.

I can not simply say "you're wrong" and leave it at that. An informed, intelligent and respectful dialogue must take part between two opposing viewpoints or nothing will be gained.

I should know, no, I must know the opposing view and see how it views Scripture and then weigh that teaching with my own set of beliefs.

How can I intelligently dialogue with the Jehovah's Witness if I don't know what they teach? I can't. The conversation will always end with nothing resolved. How can I faithfully share the gospel if I don't know what others believe? I can't.

So, I'm glad that resources are available that I don't agree with. I'll buy them, read them and hopefully I'll have a better understanding of those I Biblically oppose and who knows I may have to adjust some of my beliefs while doing so.

The arrogant and useless man is one who says "you're wrong" and can't prove it intelligently and Biblically.

Just my two cents worth.

mm.

James Hiddle:

That Vyrso would sell something from a cult leader. Here - https://vyrso.com/products/search?Author=17446|Mike+Bickle are books that are from Mike Bickle who is the founder and leader of the cult group IHOP(International House Of Prayer). Here are some info on IHOP:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/1212-international-house-of-prayer-ihop

http://www.solasisters.com/2011/06/former-ihop-member-explains-why-ihop.html

https://carm.org/ihop

Can anyone explain this to me? Why would FL promote and sell material from a cult leader?

mm.

Posts 3938
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2016 10:16 PM

James Hiddle:

abondservant:
Just because we disagree with them doesn't mean they don't have value in our libraries, and further one mans trash is anothers treasure.

Well glad someone saw something that I didn't thanks for that and you have a point. So do you think I overreacted?


I think you reacted the exact same way I did when I first saw something I didn't like. I had to have that pointed out to me as well.

And to Robert - positive expressions RE an author encourage sales, and are frequently done without expressing a given author's bias. Negative posts don't encourage sales, and often come with explanations exposing the theology or reasoning behind it.

Saying "I like the book "first book on the heresy" by johny heretic. Is unlikely to offend anyone. It might shock the cognizenti - but that's it.  whereas: "that freaking heretic has no place here grab the torches" has a larger chance to offend in a community the size of ours.

Thus positive expressions divorced from all but the blandest theological explanation are in keeping with the spirit of the rules, while negative explanations often stray across the line.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 27031
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2016 11:03 PM

abondservant:
Saying "I like the book "first book on the heresy" by johny heretic. Is unlikely to offend anyone.

Well actually it is - there is such a diverse group using Logos that there likely are people who follow johny heretic and consider your view as following jimmy joe blasphemy.. If you don't want to be called on your blasphemy don't accuse others of heresy ... or even cult except in a technical sense. We have reached the point where most users feel safe disclosing their religious orientation ... don't ruin it.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3938
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 15 2016 9:23 AM

MJ. Smith:

abondservant:
Saying "I like the book "first book on the heresy" by johny heretic. Is unlikely to offend anyone.

Well actually it is - there is such a diverse group using Logos that there likely are people who follow johny heretic and consider your view as following jimmy joe blasphemy.. If you don't want to be called on your blasphemy don't accuse others of heresy ... or even cult except in a technical sense. We have reached the point where most users feel safe disclosing their religious orientation ... don't ruin it.

I think a single individual is unlikely to ruin a community of pretty close to 200,000. However excepting that premise, you do realize that book is fictitious. Just in my few years here that rude title has been leveled at everyone from the independent fundamentalists, to baptists, to N.T. Wright, Daryl Bock, the Catholics, SDA, and the pentecostals (and several of their various waves) just to name a few.

If the community can handle that, and we have, an individual saying they like a book by a certain author is unlikely to cause offense. Unless that book is Bram Stokers Dracula. Then all bets are off.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 3183
Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 15 2016 10:29 AM

Grampa I think would take offence with your last line...

abondservant:

MJ. Smith:

abondservant:
Saying "I like the book "first book on the heresy" by johny heretic. Is unlikely to offend anyone.

Well actually it is - there is such a diverse group using Logos that there likely are people who follow johny heretic and consider your view as following jimmy joe blasphemy.. If you don't want to be called on your blasphemy don't accuse others of heresy ... or even cult except in a technical sense. We have reached the point where most users feel safe disclosing their religious orientation ... don't ruin it.

I think a single individual is unlikely to ruin a community of pretty close to 200,000. However excepting that premise, you do realize that book is fictitious. Just in my few years here that rude title has been leveled at everyone from the independent fundamentalists, to baptists, to N.T. Wright, Daryl Bock, the Catholics, SDA, and the pentecostals (and several of their various waves) just to name a few.

If the community can handle that, and we have, an individual saying they like a book by a certain author is unlikely to cause offense. Unless that book is Bram Stokers Dracula. Then all bets are off.

mm.

Posts 1435
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 15 2016 11:20 AM

James Hiddle:

That Vyrso would sell something from a cult leader. Here - https://vyrso.com/products/search?Author=17446|Mike+Bickle are books that are from Mike Bickle who is the founder and leader of the cult group IHOP(International House Of Prayer). Here are some info on IHOP:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/1212-international-house-of-prayer-ihop

http://www.solasisters.com/2011/06/former-ihop-member-explains-why-ihop.html

https://carm.org/ihop

Can anyone explain this to me? Why would FL promote and sell material from a cult leader?

for me it is disturbing that you called a "cult leader". if we start sensor religious books based on our premises than we will have empty library. 

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 1435
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 15 2016 11:28 AM

What is more disturbing is that MVP is saying that James didn't over reacted. A word to MVP - do u really want me to step up  and say who is according to my beliefs are heretics? Do you really want a war in the forums? We have here Catholics, Orthodox, Baptists, Pentecostals, Charismatics, and etc. let's love and respect everyone. 

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 5253
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 15 2016 11:59 AM

Wild Eagle. MVPs are not employees of FL and will have differing opinions. I am not 100% sure I would have the time or the energy to list as the books I have an issue with in the FL universe. But I do not feel the need to either. While it is out of place in these forms to discuss theology it happens somewhat from time to time. I know of at least one MVP that left the forum after what might be called hate filled rhetoric being tossed around the forums after one lady requested a resource that some people found very objectionable. I can see in MCJ reply a placation in that he was saying in a way he understood the objection. Christian discourse is the spot to go for those wanting to hold a heated debate over the minutia of faith details. I truly understand how one persons minutia is someones else's key argument. It is not for me or any in this forum to argue over theses things. There are times and places for such things. All I will say is I hardily agree with the person suggesting that Satan is never happier than when people of faith argue, for where there is heated discussion often love lessens. 

-Dan

Posts 1435
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 15 2016 12:30 PM

Dan Francis:

Wild Eagle. MVPs are not employees of FL and will have differing opinions. I am not 100% sure I would have the time or the energy to list as the books I have an issue with in the FL universe. But I do not feel the need to either. While it is out of place in these forms to discuss theology it happens somewhat from time to time. I know of at least one MVP that left the forum after what might be called hate filled rhetoric being tossed around the forums after one lady requested a resource that some people found very objectionable. I can see in MCJ reply a placation in that he was saying in a way he understood the objection. Christian discourse is the spot to go for those wanting to hold a heated debate over the minutia of faith details. I truly understand how one persons minutia is someones else's key argument. It is not for me or any in this forum to argue over theses things. There are times and places for such things. All I will say is I hardily agree with the person suggesting that Satan is never happier than when people of faith argue, for where there is heated discussion often love lessens. 

-Dan

Yes

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 3183
Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 15 2016 1:40 PM

Well said brother Yes

Dan Francis:

Wild Eagle. MVPs are not employees of FL and will have differing opinions. I am not 100% sure I would have the time or the energy to list as the books I have an issue with in the FL universe. But I do not feel the need to either. While it is out of place in these forms to discuss theology it happens somewhat from time to time. I know of at least one MVP that left the forum after what might be called hate filled rhetoric being tossed around the forums after one lady requested a resource that some people found very objectionable. I can see in MCJ reply a placation in that he was saying in a way he understood the objection. Christian discourse is the spot to go for those wanting to hold a heated debate over the minutia of faith details. I truly understand how one persons minutia is someones else's key argument. It is not for me or any in this forum to argue over theses things. There are times and places for such things. All I will say is I hardily agree with the person suggesting that Satan is never happier than when people of faith argue, for where there is heated discussion often love lessens. 

-Dan

mm.

Posts 27031
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 15 2016 2:02 PM

abondservant:
I think a single individual is unlikely to ruin a community of pretty close to 200,000.

I disagree ... it in the past it has only taken one or two individual to create uproar. The vast majority of the users know to be civil but a few bad eggs can keep users away - not getting the help they need and deserve.

abondservant:
you do realize that book is fictitious.

There is a lot of bad writing, bad logic and bad theology ... including pure fiction and flagrant lies - in Logos. I choose not to name names. As for schismatic and heretical texts ... why that covers most the library although we would all disagree as to precisely which texts those are.  Whether or not they get "called out" seems to depend upon how close they are to the "in group".

abondservant:
that rude title has been leveled at everyone

So .. one doesn't have to stoop to the lowest common denominator.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 999
Mike Pettit | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 15 2016 2:16 PM

Robert M. Warren:

James Hiddle:
So do you think I overreacted?

Not sure about that, but I have noticed the dichotomy whereby positive suggestions / appraisals of resource are generally approved of, while their negative counterparts are generally not; even though both approaches are usually expressions of theology, which are not allowed on the Forums.

Exactly!

Posts 2860
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 15 2016 3:29 PM

I find this disturbing.  Or, at least, Disturbed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9Dg-g7t2l4

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 3938
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 15 2016 6:43 PM

MJ. Smith:

abondservant:
I think a single individual is unlikely to ruin a community of pretty close to 200,000.

I disagree ... it in the past it has only taken one or two individual to create uproar. The vast majority of the users know to be civil but a few bad eggs can keep users away - not getting the help they need and deserve.

abondservant:
you do realize that book is fictitious.

There is a lot of bad writing, bad logic and bad theology ... including pure fiction and flagrant lies - in Logos. I choose not to name names. As for schismatic and heretical texts ... why that covers most the library although we would all disagree as to precisely which texts those are.  Whether or not they get "called out" seems to depend upon how close they are to the "in group".

abondservant:
that rude title has been leveled at everyone

So .. one doesn't have to stoop to the lowest common denominator.



I feel like we are miscommunicating here. I made up a book by a fake author to illustrate a point. The point was that you can be excited by your book, and I can be excited about mine. While you probably won't be excited by my book, you won't be offended by my excitement.

That is all.

I feel like you are insinuating that I am a bad egg at the start and part of the "in crowd" at the end and I don't believe either to be true.

I've almost stopped posting and have stopped purchasing here for reasons I've outlined elsewhere. Words carry weight MJ. If this forum is so fragile, perhaps you need to re-evaluate your own words.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 27031
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 15 2016 6:50 PM

Sorry I thought you were saying that the book mentioned by the original OP was fictitious.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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