Does Anyone Find This A Little Disturbing?

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This post has 70 Replies | 3 Followers

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James Hiddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 15 2016 6:53 PM

I realize I made a mistake and did not mean to start a firestorm so I apologize to the good folks here for starting this thread Sad

Posts 6602
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 15 2016 7:29 PM

Please, bring Dracula back! :[ If FL sells Ratsinger The Quitter's stuff, why not Dracula? Very inconsistent on FL's part!

Posts 3938
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 15 2016 8:01 PM

DAL:

Please, bring Dracula back! :[ If FL sells Ratsinger The Quitter's stuff, why not Dracula? Very inconsistent on FL's part!



haha I think you and I would get along well in real life DAL. Careful, someone is going to drop the hammer on you and start their name calling.




James Hiddle:

I realize I made a mistake and did not mean to start a firestorm so I apologize to the good folks here for starting this thread Sad



No firestorm, I'm not mad. Just got my feelings hurt a little by MJ is all.

If it's the view of the MVP's that I'm a bad egg, maybe it's time I make an exit.

See you next time something breaks.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 15 2016 8:47 PM

abondservant:
No firestorm, I'm not mad. Just got my feelings hurt a little by MJ is all.

If it's the view of the MVP's that I'm a bad egg, maybe it's time I make an exit.

I'm sorry for hurting your feelings and apologize if I misread your post ... I took it as condoning name calling as along as it was individual not group name calling.

As for being a bad egg, I consider you to be a positive source of information in the forums ... even if I question your logic now and then. I am aware that we sometimes fail to understand each other ... but in a way that I attribute to differences in age, geography and interests. Please do not make an exit.

P.S. for the less than a handful of people whom I feel incapable of communicating with, I express it by leaving their posts for others who can speak their language to answer.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 15 2016 9:08 PM

Wild Eagle:

What is more disturbing is that MVP is saying that James didn't over reacted. A word to MVP - do u really want me to step up  and say who is according to my beliefs are heretics? Do you really want a war in the forums? We have here Catholics, Orthodox, Baptists, Pentecostals, Charismatics, and etc. let's love and respect everyone. 

Maybe I should have said it differently. I could have said "James, you should love and respect everyone." Or I could have scolded James saying, "You have overreacted." Then everyone would attack my judgmental attitude. I chose instead to be understanding of the differences in perspectives found in the forums. I am very tolerant of those differences. 

I am heavily invested in Logos. I have the top level of every base package offered by Logos (and Verbum). I don't run around branding "cult leaders."  To me IHOP is a pancake restaurant. 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 16 2016 3:14 AM

abondservant:
If it's the view of the MVP's that I'm a bad egg, maybe it's time I make an exit.

On the contrary, this MVP thinks you are a tremendous asset to these forums. Stay with us.

Anyone with a cute doggie as avatar cannot be a bad egg Wink.

Posts 2694
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 16 2016 4:33 AM

in a word NO..

All teaching needs to be weighted against scripture, the good absorbed, the poor/bad discarded, regardless of teacher or denomination, the problem is when you discard everything immediately, you often are the poorer for it, as the saying goes "a broken clock is right twice a day", there will be nuggets of truth that can be mined and applied, even if there is a lot of dross you need to discard in extracting them, yes core values should never be compromised, but we may not see the whole picture/revelation of God's grace and have to be willing to ask the question "What if my viewpoint needs expanded..?"

The question is, not should something be released, but are you strong/grounded enough in the truth of the word to absorb the good and reject the rest..? 

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 2378
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 16 2016 9:36 AM

I rather find that carm website disturbing. They claim Roman Catholicism is a cult, SDA is a cult, the Orthodox Church is a cult.

I'm still looking for some statement "everyone is a cult but me..."

Ahh, not all others are cult. My church movement according to carm is only "a church with some serious problems". Boy am I relieved I didn't fall for a cult! Huh?

Past IT Consultant. Past Mission Worker. Entrepreneur. Future Seminary Student.
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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 16 2016 11:58 AM

Jan Krohn:

I rather find that carm website disturbing. They claim Roman Catholicism is a cult, SDA is a cult, the Orthodox Church is a cult.

I'm still looking for some statement "everyone is a cult but me..."

Ahh, not all others are cult. My church movement according to carm is only "a church with some serious problems". Boy am I relieved I didn't fall for a cult! Huh? 

As far as cults go, JW's are a cult, but some people don't realize that JW's and SDA are very similar since Russell used to be an Adventist, but due to "disagreements" he went and started his own little group which changes their way they interpret Scriptures more times than I change socks in a week. But anyway, I always wondered why there aren't any JW's here, maybe because some believe using the internet is a sin.  At least that's what some Spanish speaking JW's I've encountered say.  The English speaking seem to be more updated on their things, because according to them they receive updates from the tower.  I told that to the Spanish JW's and they claim the English ones must be wrong...LOL...go figure.  I thought that was really funny!

DAL

Posts 176
Al Het | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 16 2016 12:06 PM

First, looking at your resources, I'm not sure I'd call these guys a cult, though these resources do point to some cult-like tendencies.  The very fact that they tell their people that "this isn't for everyone," and if people are uncomfortable, they are allowed to freely leave and seek other church communities separate them from an actual cult in my eyes.  Whether what they are teaching is heretical is another discussion all together.

As far as Faithlife carrying their stuff, you've gotten some good input on that.  Faithlife long ago made the decision to carry resources that are outside of what I believe is owner's personal, solidly Evangelical belief system.  That is what it is. 

I think Logos is still primarily marketed to Evangelicals, though they have added resources to attract a wide range of people in the "Christian" community.  I believe this is why they have added denominational categories to their base packages.  Logos is already extremely expensive.  I would assume that they would have a hard time selling expensive packages, where a large part of the resources aren't useful to the buyer.  In this way, people can buy base packages that generally fit their belief systems, and then are free to buy other resources that may or may not line up with their basic beliefs.

To your question of whether it is disturbing to me, not really.  If I owned the company, I imagine that I would have made different choices, and focused more on tools designed for a more limited audience than Faithlife has.  It seems to me that Faithlife has tried to distance themselves from the idea of existing primarily for the purpose of furthering the work of the church (from an Evangelical perspective), while at the same time, wanting to provide tools that will be helpful to Christians, and to the church ("not a Christian company").  Given this, I expect them to provide resources that I might consider heretical.

Long ago, when I chose Logos, it was the best tool for what I was doing (Seminary, Pastoral ministry).  In some ways, I got somewhat locked in.  If I were starting today, I might make a different choice.  For me, the software and resources have grown so expansive that at some level it hinders what I use it for.  However, it is still extremely useful to me, and I haven't yet felt the need to jump to a competitor. 

For what it's worth...

Posts 176
Al Het | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 16 2016 12:26 PM

James Hiddle:
I realize I made a mistake and did not mean to start a firestorm so I apologize to the good folks here for starting this thread Sad

I absolutely disagree with this statement.  There was nothing wrong with you asking the question you did. 

On one hand, this is just a software forum, focused on how to use a software that is used by a diverse group of people within the loose definition of "Christian" (and likely a few outside that category).  This means that there is a diverse group of people who frequent this forum from that same loosely defined group. 

On the other hand, this software is largely marketed to Evangelical Christians, is likely used mainly by Evangelical Christians, and I'm fairly certain that the company is owned by Evangelical Christians.  So, assuming that you are coming from that same Evangelical perspective, to come here and ask, "Does anyone else find this a bit troubling" is not inappropriate, uncouth, or socially unacceptable. 

A somewhat spirited conversation is likely to come from such a post, as there are many people who contribute to this forum who are coming from a different theological, "denominational" place.  There's nothing wrong with that, either.  The fact that a misunderstanding arises of motives or attitudes, or even genuine disagreement, doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the question, or that it shouldn't have been asked.

Posts 787
James Hiddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 16 2016 12:48 PM

Thanks Al for your wonderful post but I feel now that I've become hypocritical. Hypocrisy and Pride are the two sins(outside the unpardonable sin)that I fear the most and feel like I commit them(or at least hypocrisy)because I can listen to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir's Christmas stuff and it relaxes me but on the same token I consider Mormonism heresy and maybe a cult or I can listen to Gregorian chants which are Catholic liturgical prayers but as a Protestant I'm against Catholic theology.

What does that say about my character? I do feel like I didn't think things through and just rushed in starting this thread not thinking that maybe there is some value to those books of his. I did have some of his material bookmarked for possible future purchases because they looked interesting and might have helped with my spiritual growth but when I found out about IHOP I took them off my bookmarks. So as you can see I seem to be a hypocritical dolt that just has a nasty habit of not thinking things through and jumping the gun to quickly.

May God have mercy on this poor soul!

Posts 989
JohnB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 16 2016 1:16 PM

DAL:
some people don't realize that JW's and SDA are very similar since Russell used to be an Adventist, but due to "disagreements" he went and started his own little group

Not that I am wanting to start WW3 but ....  To be precise, attending a meeting in an SDA church made Russell re-think his biblical understandings but he never became an SDA to be able to have disagreements and leave the SDAs. That is one thing that both SDAs and JWs agree upon!! Apparently SDAs were the one denomination that he never condemned. A distinctly dubious compliment to SDAs though! I would disagree with "are very similar" and replace with "have similarities".

DAL:
told that to the Spanish JW's and they claim the English ones must be wrong...LOL...go figure.  I thought that was really funny!
    Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile Big Smile     That is the problem of being a member of a world wide denomination, although all members are supposed to 'sing from the same hymn sheet', in practice things get distorted, re-interpreted to suite how people want to believe, or just plain ignored. Such is life.

Why can't everyone think like me? 

Posts 2694
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 16 2016 2:13 PM

James Hiddle:
So as you can see I seem to be a hypocritical dolt that just has a nasty habit of not thinking things through and jumping the gun to quickly.

May God have mercy on this poor soul!

Asking Questions is never wrong, however you will get a myriad of viewpoints.

There is nothing to ask forgiveness for here and I don't see you needing mercy, please don't condemn yourself - I don't anyhow..

  

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 16 2016 2:52 PM

DAL:
As far as cults go,

In technical terms, all religious movements begin as a cult - which is not a derogatory term when used technically. If it becomes established socially it grows out of the "cult" phase and into a full fledged religion. Given the sociological forces on cults which normally have a high percentage of marginalized people seeking a place to belong, it usually takes a few generations to know if a group will persist. When I dated an African in college I was surprised to discover how much his father's conversion to Christianity fit the cult theory of religious origin. When I worked with a woman who was a devout and active X, I inadvertently insulted her when trying to explain why X is the classic contemporary example of the life cycle of a cult that doesn't make it to the next stage. So as the proud member of an ancient Jewish Cult ...all grown up now into a real religion ...

Making fun of JW [Corrected as per DAL] Insulting JW by calling them a cult and telling derogatory stories about them is not acceptable behavior. They, like any other group, ought to be able to use Logos and come onto the forums for assistance without fear of being abused.

And as for the poster who essentially said "hey, if you're an Evangelical, you're in the in-crowd, so your free to say anything you want about the out-crowd".

Given the degree to which Jesus was willing to be with the worst - Samaritans even and even conversed nicely with them and used one as a example of stellar behavior; tax collectors who were not only traitors but extortionists, politely healed the daughter of a pagan occupying soldier .... I find it astonishing that a group claiming to be Christian finds it so difficult to be polite and charitable. It makes it very difficult not to fall into the fallacy of attributing to the group what rightly belongs to the individual.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 27047
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 16 2016 3:02 PM

James Hiddle:
What does that say about my character?

Seems to me it says you are human and do human things. Beating yourself up over it does no good. Learning from it does. Figure out the next step needed for change, thank God for disclosing another flaw, and ask God for assistance in changing.

Yes, during Lent when "Hallelujah" is not said in church, I had the audacity to preach a penance service sermon on "Hallelujah, I'm a sinner" with 7 priests in the congregation. My point was thank God you're Christian enough to recognize your sins.

Oops, I think I just crossed the line into theology and better drop it.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1436
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 16 2016 5:00 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Maybe I should have said it differently. I could have said "James, you should love and respect everyone." Or I could have scolded James saying, "You have overreacted." Then everyone would attack my judgmental attitude. I chose instead to be understanding of the differences in perspectives found in the forums. I am very tolerant of those differences. 

I am heavily invested in Logos. I have the top level of every base package offered by Logos (and Verbum). I don't run around branding "cult leaders."  To me IHOP is a pancake restaurant. 

I am sorry Matthhew for overreacting. I noticed in Logos community many times attacks against Charismatic authors and that was disturbing to me. As I said before, we should love and respect everyone. Everyone of us will stand before God and give accountability for our own choices. 

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 6602
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 16 2016 6:46 PM

Dear MJ nobody made fun of JW's or said they couldn't use Logos. What I stated concerning them changing their doctrines was a fact not making fun of them (e.g., some doctrines rejected at one point and others brought back even if it meant the lives of people and their health are at stake). It's been well documented the horrors about their fallacies in teaching the Bible (you should know these things since you're the fallacy detector and are so well versed in Logic). I even wondered why we never saw any JW's in the forums, but never said they cannot come in...reading too much into a post again? :D check mate ;)

DAL

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Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 16 2016 7:52 PM

DAL:
why we never saw any JW's in the forums, but never said they cannot come in

For the same reasons that we've had Bereans, Mormons, gays ... be around for years before they were willing to identify themselves. There is at least one user I have reason to suspect may be JW or a closely related group.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 18 2016 6:32 AM

James Hiddle:
 That Vyrso would sell something from a cult leader. Here - https://vyrso.com/products/search?Author=17446|Mike+Bickle are books that are from Mike Bickle who is the founder and leader of the cult group IHOP(International House Of Prayer). Here are some info on IHOP:

Can anyone explain this to me? Why would FL promote and sell material from a cult leader? 

Is there a mutually agreed definition or standard for a cult? Is a cult defined by its leader, size, teachings, a combination of these or some behavior outside the norms of society? Who makes that call?  

Is there a fear in the forums that biblical truth will be lost if books and authors not in the main stream are made available to logos or Christian readers? My last understanding is the Logos users still have the freedom to purchase or to read what her or she wills. CM

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