How Will Logos/Faithlife Handle This?
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Eerdmans Statement on Three New Testament Commentaries
August 15, 2016 At the beginning of July 2016, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. received allegations against one of its New Testament commentaries and immediately undertook a careful investigation. Eerdmans is now withdrawing that book and two others by the same author. Eerdmans editors compared the text of The Letter to the Hebrews (Pillar New Testament Commentary, 2010) with various secondary sources and submitted findings to external experts for verification. Summing up the findings, Editor-in-chief James Ernest said, "Our own editors and our outside consultants agreed that what we found on the pages of this commentary runs afoul of commonly accepted standards with regard to the utilization and documentation of secondary sources. We agreed that the book could not be retained in print." Examination of the same author's Letter to the Ephesians (PNTC, 1999) and Epistle to the Philippians (New International Greek Testament Commentary, 1991) found them less pervasively flawed but still untenable. The author, Peter T. O'Brien, was presented with the findings and provided the following response: "In the New Testament commentaries that I have written, although I have never deliberately misused the work of others, nevertheless I now see that my work processes at times have been faulty and have generated clear-cut, but unintentional, plagiarism. For this I apologize without reservation." President and publisher Anita Eerdmans summed up the company's stance as follows: "Eerdmans is steadfastly committed to the highest ethical standards in academic and business practice, and we apologize to all who are negatively affected by this situation. Our Bible commentary series, among the best of their kind, are authored and edited by the field's top scholars. The strong measures we are taking in this case are meant to underscore our firm belief that our commentary program is, and must remain, solid." Eerdmans is taking the following steps: ● Ceasing sales and pulp stock of all three volumes, placing them out of print. Members of the media wishing to contact Eerdmans may send e-mail to publicity@eerdmans.com. |
Comments
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We just learned about this and are reviewing the situation to determine the best way to proceed.
For now, we are removing these volumes from our website.
We'll post here with updates.
Thanks!
Senior Director, Content Products
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Humbling to see a godly theologian fall into error by carelessness. For my money, O'Brien has the second best commentary on Ephesians (after Hoehner). Since I gave my print copy away, I hope I get to keep my Logos one!
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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I hope we get to keep them, they are extremely helpful regardless! The information plagiarized or not is awesome and doesn't undermine the quality of the work (just my opinion). I don't want credit and if they want MY copies, they need to pay big bucks for them! (Publisher, that is, not FL is not their fault).
DAL
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I guess this begs the question... Since we have this digital library, can FL legally just pull these from our "virtual" library?
I mean if I had it in print, i can touch it,. But this digital books its a different story.
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Don't worry, we won't take anything away without your approval. If you like these commentaries, you'll be able to keep them.
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Matthew Miller said:
Don't worry, we won't take anything away without your approval. If you like these commentaries, you'll be able to keep them.
This is good news. I was getting worried.
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James C. said:Matthew Miller said:
Don't worry, we won't take anything away without your approval. If you like these commentaries, you'll be able to keep them.
This is good news. I was getting worried.
Ditto, thank you, FL! 👍
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Matthew Miller said:
Don't worry, we won't take anything away without your approval. If you like these commentaries, you'll be able to keep them.
"If you like your commentary, you can keep your commentary." [:P]
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So, what's the BIG Problem about it? He just forget to mentioned the Name of someone else he cited? Just put the Name in and that is it.
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Matthew Miller said:
If you like these commentaries, you'll be able to keep them.
Sounds eerily similar to, "If you like your Dr,, You can keep your Dr.."
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:Matthew Miller said:
If you like these commentaries, you'll be able to keep them.
Sounds eerily similar to, "If you like your Dr,, You can keep your Dr.."
I would expect FL to be a bit more honest than… [:#]
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Jack Caviness said:
I would expect FL to be a bit more honest than…
Seriously though, I wanna keep the commentaries. (And I do believe Faithlife.)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Can't there be one place I can go and not run into politics ? [;)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Seems to me the content of the commentary is still strong - if under referenced. At this point I think I want to keep mine. We shall see. I saw this in another forum, and wondered what Logos would do. Glad to see they have already responded.
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James C. said:Matthew Miller said:
Don't worry, we won't take anything away without your approval. If you like these commentaries, you'll be able to keep them.
This is good news. I was getting worried.
I would think that Logos cannot remove your books unilaterally any more than Eerdman's can come to your house and claim your physical copies.
Still, it's a very unfortunate situation. The commentaries will remain useful to read, but one would have to be very careful about citing them. I wouldn't to give mine up, but it would be nice if they could be flagged somehow as a reminder.
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Sean said:
... I wouldn't to give mine up, but it would be nice if they could be flagged somehow as a reminder.
Perhaps resource citation could have a reminder.
Awesome would be resource updates with secondary sources appropriately cited.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Sean said:
... I wouldn't to give mine up, but it would be nice if they could be flagged somehow as a reminder.
Perhaps resource citation could have a reminder.
Awesome would be resource updates with secondary sources appropriately cited.
Keep Smiling
My thoughts also.
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Plagiarism is such a slippery thing. I like Peter O'Brien's work and I believe that it was unintentional. Still, the rules regarding plagiarism in academic work is very strict. I hope they offer him the chance to correct his mistakes.
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I have all three of the above volumes both Pillar, and the NIGTC.
Peter T. O'Brien is also the Author of Word Biblical Commentary on Colossians, Philemon has anyone looked into this volume also having " some plagiarism " ? This one could also be a problem.
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I also have the four books by Peter O'Brien (in Word Bible Commentaries, Pillar and NIGTC) and will be very interested as to what approach Faithlife will take to this problem. The earlier suggestion of providing an annotation for each of the works in Logos (for those that want to retain the volumes) to the effect that the publisher subsequently discontinued those works after publication sounds like a good idea to me.
Personally, I wouldn't assume Faithlife has any obligation other than perhaps to withdraw the volumes with a problem from future sale. They sold the copies we purchased in good faith and its not precisely clear from the publisher's statement whether the publisher is discontinuing because most of the content of the texts is problematic or they are doing so because of an abundance of caution. Nothing was said about the Word Biblical Commentary No. 44 (Colossians, Philemon) so its uncertain if that one is under review. Given Faithlife's good track in problem solving, I'm happy to wait until it issues its own considered approach to the problem. Keep well Paul
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I would also like to go on record as saying that I will keep the volumes. It would be nice that if they reissue the volumes with proper citations, Eerdman's give current Logos format owners a free updated version.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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I got on my phone to try seeing what books I had by this author and noticed something interesting. At first the app showed me only one book by Brandon O'Brien:
Then I tried something else and got the results I was expecting:
If you look at the circled text, you will see what the difference is. Apparently for some authors, such as Brandon O'Brien, Faithlife has the name formatted with a "plain" apostrophe, such as what Microsoft Notepad would use and what my phone keyboard uses when searching within the Logos app. For other authors, such as Peter O'Brien, Faithlife has the name formatted with a "stylized" apostrophe, such as what Microsoft Word would use. I cannot find a way to have the keyboard on my phone (Android) produce this kind of character, and thus I cannot find Peter O'Brien in the Logos app by typing his last name. I realize the metadata is likely provided by the publishers and particularly in the case of Vyrso titles is often not touched by Faithlife, but I wonder how widespread this issue actually is. Did anyone else encounter this when trying to look up Peter O'Brien on a mobile device?
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Matthew, this same issue raises its ugly head now and again in various contexts - the last I remember were hymn texts in Proclaim. Logos has code available to handle this (so they say, and it works in finding long-s when searching for s) and they should either employ this or force consistent metadata.
Have joy in the Lord!
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When I search my library on my iOS for "o'brien" only the volumes of Ephesians and Hebrews show under the PNTC set. When I do a search for PNTC, it gives me my 15 volumes with those two listed and Philippians. Why doesn't Philippians show up when I search the authors last name? Did logos change something?
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I'm sorry... my eyes and brain aren't working well today. It seems my PNTC volume on Philippians is from Hansen which is what I thought wasn't showing. Guess I don't have O'Brien's work on Philippians.
Sorry all
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RE: Jonathan Ray's post -
So EBC is copyrighted in 1981 and NICNT is copyrighted in 1984, but Rupprecht is quoting Bruce?
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Matthew said:
I got on my phone to try seeing what books I had by this author and noticed something interesting. At first the app showed me only one book by Brandon O'Brien:
Then I tried something else and got the results I was expecting:
If you look at the circled text, you will see what the difference is. Apparently for some authors, such as Brandon O'Brien, Faithlife has the name formatted with a "plain" apostrophe, such as what Microsoft Notepad would use and what my phone keyboard uses when searching within the Logos app. For other authors, such as Peter O'Brien, Faithlife has the name formatted with a "stylized" apostrophe, such as what Microsoft Word would use. I cannot find a way to have the keyboard on my phone (Android) produce this kind of character, and thus I cannot find Peter O'Brien in the Logos app by typing his last name. I realize the metadata is likely provided by the publishers and particularly in the case of Vyrso titles is often not touched by Faithlife, but I wonder how widespread this issue actually is. Did anyone else encounter this when trying to look up Peter O'Brien on a mobile device?
Ok...not trying to be mean or anything, but what does that have to do with anything? The issue is plagiarism and volumes being removed or bought back by the publisher, not the spelling of anybody's last name LOL that contributes nothing to the current issue. I'm sorry but you just left me wondering and scratching my head with your way out of the blue comment 😁🤔 I was like...what?
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Jonathan Ray said:
I should have specified. Bruce's quote comes from an even earlier work of his, Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free, p. 401. This was written in 1977, which predates Rupprecht.
As is usually the case, there was more to the story than I was aware.
Thanks for the clarification.
I think this further exemplifies how tricky citation can be - even where no malice or attempt to deceive is at work.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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You are correct DAL. I'm sorry. I couldn't find the Philippians version so I thought maybe logos changed something in the index files which was my reason for posting. In the end, I just didn't pay enough attention and wasted people's time.0
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Mattillo said:
You are correct DAL. I'm sorry. I couldn't find the Philippians version so I thought maybe logos changed something in the index files which was my reason for posting. In the end, I just didn't pay enough attention and wasted people's time.
So you have 2 Logos accounts and post with both? I noticed one is Matthew and the other one Mattillo. I replied to Matthew which has less posts than Mattillo...I'm confused now...wait, you're not Unix are you? LOL nevermind. I'm going for a nap, that should make it alright 👍💤😀
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No I only have one account... I assumed you were referencing me as my post contributed little as well not to mention my name is Matt
Enjoy your nap. I need one too
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DAL said:Mattillo said:
You are correct DAL. I'm sorry. I couldn't find the Philippians version so I thought maybe logos changed something in the index files which was my reason for posting. In the end, I just didn't pay enough attention and wasted people's time.
So you have 2 Logos accounts and post with both? I noticed one is Matthew and the other one Mattillo. I replied to Matthew which has less posts than Mattillo...I'm confused now...wait, you're not Unix are you? LOL nevermind. I'm going for a nap, that should make it alright 👍💤😀
Ok...not trying to be mean or anything, but what does that have to do with anything? The issue is plagiarism and volumes being removed or bought back by the publisher, not the spelling of anybody's last name LOL that contributes nothing to the current issue. I'm sorry but you just left me wondering and scratching my head with your way out of the blue comment 😁🤔 I was like...what?
[;)]
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MJ. Smith said:
Can't there be one place I can go and not run into politics ?
I was wondering the same about censorship
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I am just reading this thread now for the first time. It will be interesting to see how Faithlife will respond. Much wisdom is needed.
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Jonathan Ray said:
It is difficult to remember where a quote originated sometimes.
"Without affirmative legislation in its favor slavery could not exist any longer than a new-born infant could survive under the heat of the sun, on a barren rock, without protection. It would wilt and die for the want of support."
The above is a quote from Stephen Douglas who in turn was quoting "an eminent southern Senator." This is from a 1858 debate with Abraham Lincoln. Did Bruce use this without attribution or are some phrases public domain because of long and common usage.
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The Hebrews commentary is still available for sale in Logos
I thought it had been withdrawn
P A
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It has now been removed
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DAL said:
Ok...not trying to be mean or anything, but what does that have to do with anything? The issue is plagiarism and volumes being removed or bought back by the publisher, not the spelling of anybody's last name LOL that contributes nothing to the current issue. I'm sorry but you just left me wondering and scratching my head with your way out of the blue comment 😁🤔 I was like...what?
OK, since you asked... [A]
1. I read the thread using my phone.
2. I assumed I am not the only one who did this.
3. I used the mobile app to see how many of the books being discussed by this thread I own.
4. I assumed I am not the only one who did this.
5. I used a method of searching that in this case did not work.
6. I assumed I am not the only one who did this.
7. I realized the problem was inconsistent metadata.
8. I shared what I found in hopes of helping others like myself who may have did what I did and been confused by the results like I was.
It took me 8 steps to get there, but I got there! [<:o)][<:o)][<:o)]
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Reflects poorly not only on O'Brien, but on D. A. Carson as well. Carson edited the series for Eerdmans, and as editor should have raised a red flag if sources were improperly or insufficiently cited.
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Kevin D Williford said:
Reflects poorly not only on O'Brien, but on D. A. Carson as well. Carson edited the series for Eerdmans, and as editor should have raised a red flag if sources were improperly or insufficiently cited.
How would Carson have known this? I think you reach unfairly.
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Matthew said:
I got on my phone to try seeing what books I had by this author and noticed something interesting. At first the app showed me only one book by Brandon O'Brien:
Thanks for the report - I'll write up a case.
If you notice any Android app issues in the future please create a new post in the Android Apps forum (if you want the issue to get fixed). Thankfully someone pointed your post out to me; this thread is completely unrelated to the mobile apps and I would have missed it otherwise.
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Its amusing to me that anyone would even have to write that they hoped they can keep their volumes. FL would NEVER make such an attempt, and even if they wanted to (which they do NOT), legally they could not do so. I'm sorry, but I can't fathom why this would even be a concern or consideration for anyone. I think we all know FL better than that...and I would like to think we know the law better than that. As someone else said...it would be akin to coming into your home and taking your print copy, which would be theft.
Come on folks...let's be a little more realistic...with all due possible respect.
Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College0 -
[Y] correct! That's what I think. How can someone take my property?Myke Harbuck said:Its amusing to me that anyone would even have to write that they hoped they can keep their volumes. FL would NEVER make such an attempt, and even if they wanted to (which they do NOT), legally they could not do so. I'm sorry, but I can't fathom why this would even be a concern or consideration for anyone. I think we all know FL better than that...and I would like to think we know the law better than that. As someone else said...it would be akin to coming into your home and taking your print copy, which would be theft.
Come on folks...let's be a little more realistic...with all due possible respect.
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Myke Harbuck said:
Its amusing to me that anyone would even have to write that they hoped they can keep their volumes. FL would NEVER make such an attempt, and even if they wanted to (which they do NOT), legally they could not do so. I'm sorry, but I can't fathom why this would even be a concern or consideration for anyone. I think we all know FL better than that...and I would like to think we know the law better than that. As someone else said...it would be akin to coming into your home and taking your print copy, which would be theft.
Come on folks...let's be a little more realistic...with all due possible respect.
I'm not worried at all, but perhaps some are remembering that Amazon did just that with some Kindle books a few years ago and were evidently within the law while doing so. They recognized that it was an unwise move in customer relations and I don't think they have repeated that for any reason in the last few years.
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Faithlife never removed Mark Driscoll's sermons from people's libraries when it was discovered he plagiarized other people's work too, so they probably won't do the same here.
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I'll add my voice to those (1) lamenting inadvertent plagiarism, and (2) seeking to keep their Logos versions.
While there's some disbelief that we have to ask for this, I'm a little cautious about digital resources. After all, to my knowledge FL doesn't treat every digital edition exactly as a print copy. For example, I think academic purchases can't be transferred or bequeathed, as I'd hope to do with my print library... [:^)]
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Kevin Byford (Faithlife) said:
If you notice any Android app issues in the future please create a new post in the Android Apps forum (if you want the issue to get fixed). Thankfully someone pointed your post out to me; this thread is completely unrelated to the mobile apps and I would have missed it otherwise.
Will do. If the metadata itself is the problem, then would the issue not present itself on multiple platforms though, not just Android and iOS?
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The Commentaries by Peter O'Brien are among the very best in the Pillar series. This is sad indeed, and I would like to keep mine despite its flaws. I hate to see this carelessness result in a tarnished reputation for this gifted scholar.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
I have all of the Pillar Commentaries, except Seifrid on 2 Corinthians. Yesterday evening, the dynamic price showed me $31 for the Pillar series to add that one book.
But when I went to buy it, the checkout price was $35.93. Today, the dynamic price shows $35.93. My guess is the dynamic price increased because the series price did not decrease but I am now adding 1 of 15 volumes instead of 1 of 17.
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