O'Brien NSBT volumes
Just a note to say that we are aware of this situation and will post with more details as we have them.
http://rushtopress.org/pr16092609.html
To be clear, we will not force you to return your resources. You own them.
Senior Director, Content Products
Comments
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The whole situation is so sad.
We need to pray for Peter O'Brian
P A
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Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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As so and so has so eloquently stated, "This whole scenario is a sad one. Prayers on behalf of O'Brien are needed." And as so and so has tenderly expressed, "We must give a thumbs up" to welcome prayers on this whole issue!
And as I have, myself, stated on several occasions, "You have got to start wondering how 'unintentional' these errors really are." The comments of some dear friend of mine stand true as of now. He uttered it this way, "I guess we'll never know." Meanwhile, several questions arise: "Is this even a salvation issue?" If so, "Why are customers given the option to keep or not to keep a work full of plagiarism?" As another source has aptly reiterated, "I guess is not for us to know..."
Anyway, I guess I will report R.T. Kendall and his "Understanding Theology" volumes where he's clearly plagiarized and quoted the New Bible Dictionary and has not given any credit whatsoever to the sources. I hope nobody thinks I'm picking on him, since I had the time to go over his works and discover his plagiarism.
Wow some people do really have too much time on their hands! Sorry for not quoting the source of this saying, but it's so popular I can't help but just repeating a normal everyday saying.
DAL
Ps. The things people worry about!
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I think these got yanked from the D.A.Carson package L7 deal too and it looks like there wasn't even a price change for the dynamic.
What a mess. Need to add Carson to the prayer list as it was on his watch.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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mab said:
I think these got yanked from the D.A.Carson package L7 deal too and it looks like there wasn't even a price change for the dynamic.
What a mess. Need to add Carson to the prayer list as it was on his watch.
Yeah, like that time when Baker asked Logos to remove their products from L4 LE and the price didn't change one bit nor replacement resources were added. And to top it all off, the worse release from Logos base packages came out later; i.e. Logos 5...Sad, sad...
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The D.A. Carson Logos 7 Exclusive Bundle does not include any volumes from the NSBT series.
I've been working on the 34 volume NSBT collection today, and just finished it up. I've also updated the price.
Also, the titles from the NSBT Upgrade collection have not been added to the larger, now 34 volume, collection.
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I think I've been spending too long looking at all the stuff in the Logos website. Gets to blur what has what. Sorry for the miss on my assessment.
Considering how few volumes get yanked overall, it's a testimony to the overall excellence of our resources.
There's a whole lot of stuff in the larger "Christian" market that should have never been printed in the first place, but that's another matter entirely. Maybe we should have a thread about repurposing bad books. Too bad you can't do that with electronic versions of them.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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We certainly need to pray for Dr. Peter O'Brien. He has to be under tremendous stress now.
It is clear that he failed to document or acknowledge properly some source material. I suspect that if every author in our library was put under the microscope and examined as the work of Peter O'Brien is being examined, he would have lots of company,
Even with the acknowledged flaws with regard to documenting source material, his commentaries are among the most helpful I have found. I am not saying that to justify the sloppy documentation. I just wish Dr. O'Brien could go back and correct the failures in his commentaries, rather than publishers simply withdrawing them.
This whole situation is a wake up call to all writers. I pray for Dr. O'Brien, and I think God for gifts and talents that he has. His writing has helped me. If he publishes any more commentaries, I would interested in buying them.
I believe in grace and second chances.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
I think the sensible solution is a letter of apology (even though intentional wrong doing is not suspected) also a list or bibliography of undocumented materials.
This is not unreasonable, since the resources must already be known.
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[Y] well said.
Michael Childs said:We certainly need to pray for Dr. Peter O'Brien. He has to be under tremendous stress now.
It is clear that he failed to document or acknowledge properly some source material. I suspect that if every author in our library was put under the microscope and examined as the work of Peter O'Brien is being examined, he would have lots of company,
Even with the acknowledged flaws with regard to documenting source material, his commentaries are among the most helpful I have found. I am not saying that to justify the sloppy documentation. I just wish Dr. O'Brien could go back and correct the failures in his commentaries, rather than publishers simply withdrawing them.
This whole situation is a wake up call to all writers. I pray for Dr. O'Brien, and I think God for gifts and talents that he has. His writing has helped me. If he publishes any more commentaries, I would interested in buying them.
I believe in grace and second chances.
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Michael Childs said:
I suspect that if every author in our library was put under the microscope and examined as the work of Peter O'Brien is being examined, he would have lots of company,
I find this a very sad commentary on segments of society - in my circles it would result in dismissal ... even "borrowing" a student's unpublished works results in dismissal. And with the tools on the internet it is so easy to check.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Michael Childs said:
It is clear that he failed to document or acknowledge properly some source material. I suspect that if every author in our library was put under the microscope and examined as the work of Peter O'Brien is being examined, he would have lots of company,
I fully agree. It is so easy to plagiarize if you are not careful. In any study you read a lot of material which shape your thinking and ideas. If you do not keep meticulous notes, you can easily write a passage from memory, thinking it was your own words, while actually unintentionally copying another authors ideas. I understand that authors need to be extremely careful, but I think it is easier to fall into this trap than most of us think.
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Michael Childs said:
We certainly need to pray for Dr. Peter O'Brien. He has to be under tremendous stress now.
It is clear that he failed to document or acknowledge properly some source material. I suspect that if every author in our library was put under the microscope and examined as the work of Peter O'Brien is being examined, he would have lots of company,
Even with the acknowledged flaws with regard to documenting source material, his commentaries are among the most helpful I have found. I am not saying that to justify the sloppy documentation. I just wish Dr. O'Brien could go back and correct the failures in his commentaries, rather than publishers simply withdrawing them.
This whole situation is a wake up call to all writers. I pray for Dr. O'Brien, and I think God for gifts and talents that he has. His writing has helped me. If he publishes any more commentaries, I would interested in buying them.
I believe in grace and second chances.
MJ. Smith said:Michael Childs said:I suspect that if every author in our library was put under the microscope and examined as the work of Peter O'Brien is being examined, he would have lots of company,
I find this a very sad commentary on segments of society - in my circles it would result in dismissal ... even "borrowing" a student's unpublished works results in dismissal. And with the tools on the internet it is so easy to check.
From a professional and academic point of view this should not have happened - but it has and I am with Michael on his response to it. The publishers have dealt with that aspect as they necessary from that professional / academic point of view. Beyond that Peter O'Brien is a real person and a very genuine one I've heard from friends who know him personally. As a community of believers we should now extend to him the grace and forgiveness - if somehow we think we have been wronged by Peter in this situation. The fact is that none of us are deserving of grace or forgiveness - I know am certainly not, I fail to live up to God's glory everyday - but we extend that grace to Peter because God has extended it to us.
We can be like the religious leaders in the gospels and pass judgement because the rules of our circle were not adhered or we can be reminded of Paul's comments to the Romans that we are all sinners,regardless of our background, regardless of the circles to which we belong or how well we have kept the rules of said circle. We have all fallen short of God's glory. Without Christ we are all in trouble.
As for me, as I said earlier I join with Michael, and others, in prayer for Peter O'Brien, and James Varner for that matter, because what is more important right now is their personal well being - physical, emotional and spiritual - rather than passing our continued judgement on their failures.
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Michael Childs said:
I suspect that if every author in our library was put under the microscope and examined ... he would have lots of company,
Sarel Slabbert said:It is so easy to plagiarize if you are not careful. In any study you read a lot of material which shape your thinking and ideas. If you do not keep meticulous notes, you can easily write a passage from memory, thinking it was your own words, while actually unintentionally copying another authors ideas.
I am not condemning the authors or anything. I'm just pointing to the demonstrable fact that some passages are reproduced at length, and almost verbatim. It can't be free recall. If this is spotted in a student's paper, he'd be at a loss to explain it.
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Amen.
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The example I saw was almost verbatim from FF Bruce, and Bruce was attributed in the footnote. It was just not indicated that his actual words were being used. I can see how that could easily happen.
To understand how easy it would be to make these mistakes, consider this.
As you take notes from books, sometimes you write it in your own words. Sometimes you use theirs. Of course in the second case, you ought to note this somehow, with quotation marks or the like.
Suppose you forget to put the quote marks around? Or you are taking notes by hand, and miss them when you refer to them later (maybe years later). You reference Bruce, because your notes tell you the ideas are his. But you don't realise the words are his too. Long career of otherwise meticulous scholarship down the drain.
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Andrew Hayes said:
To understand how easy it would be to make these mistakes, consider this.
As you take notes from books, sometimes you write it in your own words. Sometimes you use theirs. Of course in the second case, you ought to note this somehow, with quotation marks or the like.
Suppose you forget to put the quote marks around? Or you are taking notes by hand, and miss them when you refer to them later (maybe years later). You reference Bruce, because your notes tell you the ideas are his. But you don't realise the words are his too. Long career of otherwise meticulous scholarship down the drain.
This mistake is something that most freshmen in college are trained to avoid ... it used to be that they suggested different colors of cards for quotes, summaries, personal ideas and questions. Yes, it is easy to make mistakes ... but students are also taught how to check their work. If it is so easy to make mistakes and so hard to avoid error then there would be so many such errors that they would not be newsworthy.
One can support the authors without condoning their errors. Speaking for myself, I would question the scholarship of any other scholar who excused the behavior ... I hope the forums are not indicative of how wide a circle that might be.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Sounds like you were taught a good system. I'm far from a scholar, but so far I've never been taught a method like that. We have of course been warned against plagiarism, but perhaps not taught the techniques of avoiding it so thoroughly as you have.
Not condoning his behaviour - I don't think anyone here is. I was just thinking through how such a thing could have happened, and in the process of writing my own assignment today I realised how easy it could be.
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To give you an idea of how seriously scholars take attribution, I am mentioned in a footnote of a book authored by a professor / friend. My contribution? mentioning in a casual conversation where a particular Purana mentioned an animal. I certainly wasn't expecting credit but Jack wanted to be sure I could use it in my dissertation as my discovery if I wished.
It was similarly drilled into my son in a required Community College study skills class and I've seen it in standard study skills orientation offer by state colleges in several states. My second grandson has just started college ... I'll need to ask him what study skills / paper conventions he's being taught. I suspect they're a bit different as his final product is to be a podcast not a text. [:O]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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In serious works, even ideas dropped in casual chit-chat are credited as "private conversation with so-and-so" or something similar.
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Perhaps the Australian school system isn't as thorough - both myself and O'Brien hail from down under, where we convicts steal anything we can get our hands on.
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We should discredit the apostle Paul then since he quoted poets and philosophers of his time in Acts and Titus and yet he did not give any credit to them. From now on I will no longer quote those verses where he failed to give credit to the authors. In fact we should wipe out those verses from the Bible and consider them uninspired because he plagiarized. That would be the right thing to do according to the logic of these so-called scholars and their rules. 🙄
I think the right thing to do would've been to allow O'Brien and Varner to fix their work and that's it, but I guess that's unacceptable in the academic world which probably doesn't have the concept of second chances included in their dictionary.
DAL
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Josh said:DAL said:
We should discredit the apostle Paul then since he quoted poets and philosophers of his time in Acts and Titus and yet he did not give any credit to them.
Source?
Acts 17:28 and Titus 1:12
This is pretty much a "as so and so said..." with no name cited. Really Paul, which poet?
DAL
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DAL said:Josh said:DAL said:
We should discredit the apostle Paul then since he quoted poets and philosophers of his time in Acts and Titus and yet he did not give any credit to them.
Source?
Acts 17:28 and Titus 1:12
This is pretty much a "as so and so said..." with no name cited. Really Paul, which poet?
DAL
Taken from: Paul and his Use of Greek Philosophy (https://biblethingsinbibleways.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/paul-and-his-use-of-greek-philosophy/)
Titus 1:12
The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
In writing to Titus Paul quotes a description of the Cretans taken from “Epimenides“. Paul calls Epimenides “one of themselves, a prophet of their own”.Acts 17:24-29
In Acts 17:18 Paul is encountered by Epicureans and Stoics. Paul’s first sentence struck directly at the “Epicurean” theory (the origin of the world by mere coincidence and of atoms) and arrayed himself with the “Stoics” in their doctrine of the (Divine Wisdom and Providence creating and ruling all things). His speech is made up of words quoted from a Roman Stoic Philosopher called Lucius Annaeus Seneca as mentioned below.0 -
In defence of Paul he was using the standards of his time.
Also Paul did not write Acts, but his fellow companion Luke.
P A
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DAL said:Josh said:DAL said:
We should discredit the apostle Paul then since he quoted poets and philosophers of his time in Acts and Titus and yet he did not give any credit to them.
Source?
Acts 17:28 and Titus 1:12
This is pretty much a "as so and so said..." with no name cited. Really Paul, which poet?
DAL
Sigh, sometimes my wit escapes people....
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DAL said:
Acts 17:28 and Titus 1:12
This is pretty much a "as so and so said..." with no name cited. Really Paul, which poet?
DAL
This is getting rather confusing. Paul acknowledges that these sayings came from one of their poet, he is not putting forward these ideas as if were his or originated with him.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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P A said:
In defence of Paul he was using the standards of his time.
Also Paul did not write Acts, but his fellow companion Luke.
P A
Then why did Paul say, Our LORD SAID 'it is more blessed to give than to receive' to refer to Jesus. Or Peter when he said our beloved brother Paul wrote some things that are hard to understand. They both specified individuals...not that I really care about this whole issue, just trying to prove a point; mainly this:
I think this whole plagiarism baloney is man-made to protect their own interests. It all boils down to money... may their money perish with them!
DAL
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Ted Hans said:DAL said:
Acts 17:28 and Titus 1:12
This is pretty much a "as so and so said..." with no name cited. Really Paul, which poet?
DAL
This is getting rather confusing. Paul acknowledges that these sayings come from one of their poet, he is not putting forward these ideas as if was his or originated with him.
He still didn't provide proper citation which is the issue or part of the issue here, according to the "scholars" pa'trolling' O'Brien and Varner but not a bunch of others. Anyway, who cares about those ravenous wolves!
DAL
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DAL said:
He still didn't provide proper citation which is the issue or part of the issue here, according to the "scholars" pa'trolling' O'Brien and Varner but not a bunch of others. Anyway, who cares about those ravenous wolves!
Okay Dal [:)][:D][:P]
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Dr. O'Brien has admitted to making unintended mistakes, but as Christians we should restore and heal instead of destroying. To take all that he has done and send it to the shredder seems harsh for something that both publishers said that they believed was done unintentionally.
In some ways I think we have created this problem because the church wanted to "convince" the secular world by "argument" that Christianity was superior to their pagan worship, or any worldly philosophy.
That of course required Christian scholars that would be recognized by the secular world as being equal to them in scholarship. We wanted to be taken seriously by secular academia. I fear that we have adopted the world's thinking about higher education to the point we are indistinguishable from them.
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Dr. Stanley E. Porter, president of McMaster Divinity College wrote the following about O'Brien.
Please see the link below for all his comments.
Commentaries for some time have become (rarely otherwise) little more than compendia of other people’s knowledge. With so many commentaries being produced in endless series, and with there being very little to distinguish most of them, there are only so many new things to be said and only so many new ways to say them in any commentary. In fact, I believe that the acceptable convention of commentary writing today is essentially to repeat what others have said before you, even if you massage their words in various ways. Therefore, I find it hard to fathom that there is so much self-righteous indignation over Peter O’Brien’s supposed plagiarism in several commentaries. I think that O’Brien, if he did plagiarize (and I wish to question this), may well have simply been following the convention of current commentary writing—an inevitability that has become an accepted norm. From my experience of reading commentaries, I suspect that many commentary writers would not like anyone looking too closely at how they have written theirs, simply because the use of other commentators is exactly what writing a commentary (unfortunately) has become.
I find it interesting that the notion of plagiarism has developed into what it has become. If the New Testament authors cite or closely paraphrase Old Testament writers but without attribution, we consider this a meaningful citation or allusion and engage in all sorts of exegetical gymnastics (and write endless books) to ascertain their meanings and motives—but we do not accuse them of plagiarism. Why? Because that is the convention of the ancient writers (as I believe the convention is for contemporary commentary writers). This is also true of more recent authors. If Shakespeare uses Holinshed’s Chronicles or earlier versions of the story of Hamlet, we don’t call Shakespeare a plagiarist, we instead call him the most brilliant writer of the English language who ever lived. If a contemporary author invokes an earlier author, such as Shakespeare or any number of others, we may spend hours determining the nature of the invocation or its purpose—but again we don’t call it plagiarism, we call it literary allusion and commend the learnedness of the author (as in the allusion to T.S. Eliot above).
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DAL said:
We should discredit the apostle Paul then since he quoted poets and philosophers of his time in Acts and Titus and yet he did not give any credit to them. From now on I will no longer quote those verses where he failed to give credit to the authors. In fact we should wipe out those verses from the Bible and consider them uninspired because he plagiarized. That would be the right thing to do according to the logic of these so-called scholars and their rules. 🙄
Had the concept of intellectual property existed at the time of Paul. However, it is a very recent concept - think circa 1700.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Andrew Hayes said:
Perhaps the Australian school system isn't as thorough - both myself and O'Brien hail from down under, where we convicts steal anything we can get our hands on.
I'll cut you slack as the home of Rationale software for education. [:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DAL said:
I think this whole plagiarism baloney is man-made to protect their own interests. It all boils down to money... may their money perish with them!
Exactly ... so that writers, composers, artists, programmers, engineers, inventors can make a living without the patronage of a court. You understand history very well.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Bobby Terhune said:
That of course required Christian scholars that would be recognized by the secular world as being equal to them in scholarship. We wanted to be taken seriously by secular academia. I fear that we have adopted the world's thinking about higher education to the point we are indistinguishable from them.
Er ... ah ... check your history as education was initially a religious enterprise ... even when my great-grandfather was educated, education was primarily religious. It is the secular education which is new and less disciplined allowing one to study only a single side of an issue or to divorce a study from its philosophical underpinnings. The church has convinced the secular world by argument since its founding - look at Jewish argumentation and Paul in front of pagan temples.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Bobby Terhune said:
Dr. Stanley E. Porter, president of McMaster Divinity College wrote the following about O'Brien.
Please see the link below for all his comments.
This has been brought up before. I hate to think of the damage done to the reputation of Dr. Porter and McMaster Divinity College. Yes, people build on the work of those who proceed them. Yes, there is a reason why reception history commentaries are becoming more frequent e.g. Blackwell Bible Commentaries. It is also true that with linguistic advances and advances in cultural understanding, in philosophical hermeneutics, computer assisted pattern recognition ... that there are new things to say. Not new meaning in the text but new ways to tease it out, verify it, present it. Why would an author accept a contract to write a commentary if he has nothing new to say? introductory textbooks yes but a commentary?
The thing is that a couple of authors made a serious mistake. The humiliation is more than sufficient punishment - simply remove the books from sales and move on. The attempt to justify the mistake is what is doing the most harm to a group of scholars and institutions because of what it implies about their standards.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Bobby Terhune said:
Dr. Stanley E. Porter, president of McMaster Divinity College wrote the following about O'Brien.
Please see the link below for all his comments.
A very interesting and forthright blog regarding publishing and modern commentaries (not to mention the application to O'Brien's situation). Thanks.
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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MJ. Smith said:Bobby Terhune said:
Dr. Stanley E. Porter, president of McMaster Divinity College wrote the following about O'Brien.
This has been brought up before. I hate to think of the damage done to the reputation of Dr. Porter and McMaster Divinity College.
On the McMaster web site go here and click on "Academic Honesty" to see what they say about plagiarism.
Below is from the Moore Theological College student handbook. To see it go here and scroll to the bottom and click on "Student Handbook" (page 101)
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MJ. Smith said:
The thing is that a couple of authors made a serious mistake. The humiliation is more than sufficient punishment - simply remove the books from sales and move on. The attempt to justify the mistake is what is doing the most harm to a group of scholars and institutions because of what it implies about their standards.
I agree with this whole-heartedly.
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Peter O'Brien is a very humble and very devout Christian. He often travels to preach and conduct seminars here in Malaysia. In return we give him a small love gift (usually a $20 book token is all we can afford). I have heard him say on a number of occasions in the past that nobody makes very much money writing Christian books. Like John Stott, any money he does make he donates to materials for Pastors in developing countries. The tragedy is that this fund will now be diminished along with his reputation. Please cut him some slack. I really cannot imagine that his plagiarism was deliberate.
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Whyndell Grizzard said:
I think the sensible solution is a letter of apology (even though intentional wrong doing is not suspected) also a list or bibliography of undocumented materials.
This is not unreasonable, since the resources must already be known.
I still say this is the best way to go- but even more Gentleman- show grace, mercy and forgiveness- it is truly the only wat to help heal this situation. We are basically outsiders, but they are in the midst of this controversy, pray for their well being and recovery.
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I think this problem is endemic to the commentary genre, as Stanley Porter states. Even though "there is nothing new under the sun", the publishers want more and more commentaries. There is really not much new scholarship (especially from conservative theologians). The Word of God hasn't changed, so why should the interpretations change (unless there is new historical or archaeological evidence)? As a result, new commentaries usually just rehash, restate and synthesize old opinions. Editors need to be more vigilant in the future to check and recheck sources. Exhaustive peer review is probably a good idea. And, texts probably need to be scrubbed by computers to detect plagiarism.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
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Ted Hans said:
This is getting rather confusing. Paul acknowledges that these sayings came from one of their poet, he is not putting forward these ideas as if were his or originated with him.
[Y][Y]
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I have always thought it somewhat amusing how the author of the Hebrews attributed this passage:
It has been testified somewhere, “What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him? You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor, putting everything in subjection under his feet.” (Heb. 2:6-8, ESV)
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Bill Anderson said:
I have always thought it somewhat amusing how the author of the Hebrews attributed this passage:
It has been testified somewhere, “What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him? You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor, putting everything in subjection under his feet.” (Heb. 2:6-8, ESV)
It is kind of neat, and does offer some explanation (plus the development of intellectual property) why quoting the Bible is unique.
"The introductory formula at 1:6 [sic], however, is stated ambiguously, not because the author has forgotten who spoke this psalm or where it occurs in Scripture, but to keep the focus on God, rather than a human agent, as the primary speaker of Scripture. He does not present this quotation as God speaking, of course, because this portion of Scripture is spoken to God—he is the one being addressed."
George H. Guthrie, “Hebrews,” in Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament (Grand Rapids, MI; Nottingham, UK: Baker Academic; Apollos, 2007), 944.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Do not see what the big deal is over this. We are not perfect. All of us make mistakes. In the Bahamas it is so different; hardly anyone worries about so called "Plagiarism" here.
Anyhow, I agree with you DAL 100%. The right thing to do would have been to allow O' Brien and Varner to fix their work and that's it. End of story. Case closed. BAM!
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Kenute P. Curry said:
Do not see what the big deal is over this.
Surprised you don't mind theft ... most Logos users have a thing about the 10 commandments. [Sorry but I'm getting frustrated at the continued attempts to justify / mitigate the fault rather than simply accepting it for what it is and moving on.]
Kenute P. Curry said:The right thing to do would have been to allow O' Brien and Varner to fix their work and that's it.
Bobby Terhune said:Jesse,
just a thought, why can't the author fix the existing manuscript? this volume was very well received, and it seems a shame to toss it out.
Jesse Myers said:Hi Bobby,
Unfortunately, the nature of the text's problems precluded this option.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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