Question about New Testament Manuscript Explorer Interactive

Is there currently any way to have any of the New Testament Manuscript Explorer interactive display all manuscripts containing a particular passage? For example, if I click on p52, I am able to see that it contains John 18:31-33, 37-38. Is there a way to then find all other manuscripts containing John 18:31? I believe my answer is no, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. It appears that not all manuscripts have specific information regarding what passages they contain, or at least that information does not appear to be visible to the user (Sinaiticus, for example, says "Contents: eapr," which is a much more concise way of summarizing its contents). If I am correct that this is not currently possible to do, can anyone from Faithlife comment on if there has been any discussion of adding such a capability?

Yes, I am aware that the Exegetical Guide is able to somewhat provide what I am asking about in the "Online Manuscripts" section under "Textual Variants." This appears to be the best solution for now, but it lacks the ability to apply filters to the list that the interactive has.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

Personally am a volunteer with many posts (have no idea about Manuscript Explorer discussions within Faithlife).

Is there a way to then find all other manuscripts containing John 18:31?

Text Comparison can show manuscripts with verse differences:

"Greek Text Comparison" collection rule:

Type:Bible Language:Greek (Subject:("Dead Sea Scrolls",Manuscript) OR Title:(Byzantine,Codex,Papyrus,Patriarchal,Sahidica,Septuagint,Tischendorf,"Scrivener 1881",1874) OR MyTag:BibleGrid)

Being able to group Text Comparison by Textual Categories should be helpful:

Noticed Manuscript Explorer and Codex Purpureus Petropolitanus (CPP) have slightly different word order so Manuscript Explorer does not show availability in Logos

Keep Smiling [:)]

MJ. Smith

Is there a way to then find all other manuscripts containing John 18:31?

I don't believe so although; the data is from Institute for New Testament Textual Research not Faithlife. However, the data in Contents when one expands a manuscript implies that it would be possible perhaps even just as another facet.

Matthew

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870744#Comment_870744

Keep Smiling and MJ, thank you both for your responses!

Text Comparison can be used to show which manuscripts contain a passage and which ones do not, but we are nowhere close to having ALL the manuscripts available in Logos to use with this tool. Even if we did, Text Comparison could not filter them into the various categories that the NT Manuscript Explorer can without making custom collections for each filter you wanted to imitate.

I think for right now the best comprehensive solution would be https://www.logos.com/product/32501/center-for-new-testament-textual-studies-new-testament-critical-apparatus. It has been on my wish list for a while (and will remain there for the foreseeable future due to other priorities), but my understanding is that it is quite comprehensive.

Here's to hoping, as MJ suggested, that the another facet can be added to the NT Manuscript Explorer (in version 2.0, perhaps?). It might also be nice to pick which column the results are sorted by (ie, Type, Contents, Date, Language, Textual Categories), but that is a subject for a different thread.

Thanks Faithlife for continuing to create amazing tools that improve the depth of my study!

delete12066188

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870788#Comment_870788

Is there a way to then find all other manuscripts containing John 18:31?

Yes

OR you could go to

http://ntvmr.uni-muenster.de/manuscript-workspace

there you can put i your Passage, and they give you all the Manuscripts

delete12066188

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870790#Comment_870790

You sort the Explorer with the TOC

Matthew

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870791#Comment_870791

Sascha, thank you SO MUCH for that link! I had actually just been over there yesterday to get a high-resolution image of p52, but I did not realize there was the search functionality you described. While I would obviously much rather be able to work exclusively within Logos, this will do for now. For anyone else unfamiliar with what to do, click "Full Search," and then enter the desired passage under "Indexed Biblical Content."

As for sorting the results in the NT Manuscript Explorer, I still am not seeing how to do that. Sascha, it looks like you are trying to show me that the filter options on the left correspond with the titles of the columns on the right, but even in your screenshot the results are sorted by title, which is far as I can tell is the default/only option. I do not see a way, for example, to have the interactive show all 129 papyrus documents sorted by date. I can view all of the ones from the second century, all of the ones from the third century, etc., but not all of them at once sorted by date. What I am ultimately after is a way to choose a passage and generate a list of all manuscripts containing that passage sorted by date. Hopefully that clarifies what I meant. Again, thanks for the help!

delete12066188

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870793#Comment_870793

Now I got it...no I don't see a Way to sort all Mansuscripts either. Well if you need them, you have to do it yourself ;-)

I just found klick John and than go thrue the Dates. It would be easier with the Center , there you can copy and paste it

Rick Brannan (Logos)

Hi Matthew.

The NT Manuscript Explorer is a manuscript-level view of available manuscript information (as are the LXX Manuscript Explorer and Hebrew Bible Manuscript Explorer). It is about filtering manuscripts at the level of manuscript data (not data on readings). The "Online Manuscripts" section you mention has the page/verse level data for where it is available.

You're correct that the information returned in Online Manuscripts could be retrieved and displayed in a way that better facilitated comparison. I've advocated for this internally, but it hasn't happened yet. At present, I'd recommend following links for a given manuscript to the NTVMR (the webservice from the INTF that serves the manuscript data) and use functionality on that web site to answer the question.

Matthew

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870820#Comment_870820

It is about filtering manuscripts at the level of manuscript data (not data on readings).

Rick, thanks so much for the response. When you say "data on readings," I get the impression you thought I was asking about the actual word-for-word text of each manuscript being included in the interactive, which I am not. I am asking about something much more fundamental, namely consistency in the data regarding the passage range of a given manuscript. For shorter manuscripts, such as p52 cited above, the interactive lets the user know specifically which verses are found in the manuscript, but the corresponding information in longer manuscripts is given in much less specific terms, such as the example I gave in my original post.

Examples of why this information might be helpful to include:

1. It would allow someone to quickly locate the oldest complete copy of a given book of the Bible.

2. It would be a way of communicating to users when one or more pages was missing from a manuscript (based on a large chunk of missing passages in the passage range).

3. When studying passages that are not found in all manuscripts, users could quickly find the oldest manuscripts that include the passage.

4. Continuing the study imagined in example 3, users might eventually be able to search for manuscripts containing the verses before and after whatever verse is being studied but NOT the verse itself. Why would this be useful? If Acts 8:37 were being studied, for example, running this search in the interactive would show all manuscripts covering that section of Acts but that omit verse 37.

I am sure there are more usage scenarios, but that is what I have off the top of my head. Again, none of this has anything to do with including the text itself, so no "readings" would be involved except the relatively few variants involving one or more entire verses. It all has to do with including consistent, complete data of what specific passages a manuscript includes. If every manuscript included the level of detail p52 already has in the interactive, that would be enough. Again, thank you for your response. As Faithlife continues to expand its textual criticism tools, I hope these interactives are considered for upgrades.

Rick Brannan (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870842#Comment_870842

Hi Matthew

I get the impression you thought I was asking about the actual word-for-word text of each manuscript being included in the interactive, which I am not. I am asking about something much more fundamental, namely consistency in the data regarding the passage range of a given manuscript. For shorter manuscripts, such as p52 cited above, the interactive lets the user know specifically which verses are found in the manuscript, but the corresponding information in longer manuscripts is given in much less specific terms, such as the example I gave in my original post

We get the information on passages within a given manuscript from the INTF's web service; it is not data owned/curated by Faithlife. Basically, the data is at the same granularity you'd see in the appendix of the UBS/NA editions that list the manuscript evidence. Some list actual reference ranges; others list the eapr (and sometimes K) identifiers that relate to a larger section.

delete12066188

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870842#Comment_870842

What you need to do is check the Apparatus and Commentaries flood your Mouse over and you see the Date, Or Check in NT Explorer...BUT THEN you also have to go to the Original Manuscript to Check if it is so to be shure :-)