How do you use Logos? How can we improve it?
We'd like to understand how you use Logos (the desktop version) and how you'd like to see us improve it to meet your Bible study needs better. Please help us help you by taking this 10-question survey.
Feel free to expand on your responses in this thread if you'd like.
Thanks for your help, and Merry Christmas!
Comments
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Thanks, Phil, for offering this brief survey asking us how Logos can be improved.
I'd like to see FL tag resources by theology/denomination, so we don't have to resort to using complex collection rules or have to manually tag books, whenever our library is updated.
I'd like to see performance improvements, so layouts don't take 30 seconds or more to open. Right now, it's much quicker for me to open the Courses tool, and some related (Notes and Passage List) documents by hand, than to use a layout to open them for me.
Hope you get some good input to prioritize what is important!
On a somewhat related note, Logos is improved by bigger libraries, but the high cost of resources hinders me from expanding my libraries. Better pricing and sales would also improve Logos!
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Took the survey. I would love to see performance improvement, other programs are snappier in similar tasks that Logos does. I find it unusual that Logos is slower, since it seems to be the top bible software. I like Logos a lot and plan to use it, the Lord willing, for many years to come. I have invested a significant amount of money in this. I appreciate the functionality and capabilities of Logos. I also agree with the competitive pricing.
Keith Pang, PhD Check out my blog @ https://keithkpang.wixsite.com/magnifyingjesus
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Thanks for the survey. I'll expand on my #1 request: Make it faster in all sorts of ways. UI responsiveness mostly. Dropdowns, etc.
I'm continually frustrated by how Logos progressively gets slower in areas that used to work OK or where I used to complain about the slowness, and optimization was done which made it better temporarily. I've stepped away from active presence in the forums, since I feel like I have to keep putting so much effort into reporting issues to help you guys make Logos better (reporting bugs and performance issues), and I don't have time for that. A piece of software that requires me to put so much time into keeping it usable for me is a waste of my time. I'm using it less and less these days.
I also reported that I'd like to see improvements in the Library (as in more books). I used to regularly post requests for lists of books to be added to Logos, but seriously, every single time I look up a Christian book on Amazon that Logos doesn't have, Amazon suggests several other similar ones (often from known publishers that Faithlife already does business with) which also look great and which also aren't yet in Logos. I could seriously have a full time job making lists of books for Logos to add to their library that I might buy if they had them. I don't have time for that anymore. I will buy from Kindle because they are just there, right away, when the idea pops into my head to buy impulsively. You're missing out on lots of potential sales from people like me. But I just won't buy if it requires me posting a request to get such-and-such book, and months of waiting while you decide yeah let's do that one, and negotiate the rights for it, and put it into pre-pub and wait for enough order to come in and then produce it. And often it comes in a collection of other books I'm not interested in, so I'd have to wait until that is unbundled. By the time I can buy that book for Logos, I've forgotten I was interested in it.
Those are my two biggest complaints right now. I don't need more features. I only use a small fraction of the ones that are in Logos already.
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I'd like for things that get broken to be fixed. The pin drop on a map is a good example. We were told that it would be fixed over 3 months ago and it is still broken. It seems these things get swept under the rug too often.
See this thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/130406.aspx
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I'd like to see a somewhat different survey - one on what we need to move Logos into the general congregation.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Survey taken. My notes are there.
Merry Christmas, Phil.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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The survey gave me hope to see items like "User Interface" and "Responsiveness." It worried me to see the inevitable feature bloat trend, features that are often abandoned half done in order to move onto some new shiny thing. I don't want to subscribe, to pay more to access "Now" these features I mostly don't want.
- I want the program to move when I want it to move, to be snappy when I need it to be.
- To be able to perform as quickly as free software performs.
- To find what I am searching for even if I don't search perfectly.
I don't want more gadgets and whirring devices. Most I haven't even looked at more than once, some not at all. I would not pay for those if I could help it. I don't want the program I use most to have that doggy, iTunes feel. I would 100X more rather have the program jump to attention simply and quickly than to have one more feature, dataset, dinnerbell, etc.
Rather than add more minute guides and templates, why not create a simplified interface that just performs. Leave the fancy stuff available--I use it too, but only a small percent of the time. Just don't let it bog down everything else. Mostly I use the main features like simple searches, arranging windows, finding menu items--and that should move f-a-s-t. I wonder if that isn't true for most Logos users.
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Rosie Perera said:
Thanks for the survey. I'll expand on my #1 request: Make it faster in all sorts of ways. UI responsiveness mostly. Dropdowns, etc.
+1 [Y] for user responsiveness.
Dreaming of Right Click revamp with significant responsiveness improvement. Slow to populate with lots of information choices from various datasets. Right click customization for left side section order would be awesome (instead of alphabetical). Right side option to choose dataset(s) for display would be helpful (similar to Guides where sections can be collapsed for faster response).
Dreaming of "Visual Filter" notification so know when Visual Filter highlighting is complete after opening a resource.
Dreaming of option to disable pop-up search assistant that slows down my typing of search words, especially when modifying visual filters. Please let me choose when would like search assistance. Have experienced a few times where search is complete that is followed by assistant pop-up with suggestion.
Copying a search tab has default of running search after tab is copied. Work around is clicking search icon to open a new tab.
Dreaming of "Preparing Library ..." notification expansion to include collection cache refresh. In an installation with hundreds of collections and 21,000+ resources, refreshing collection cache takes several minutes.
Dreaming of allowing user to use Logos and Verbum while sync is in progress. If sync encounters an error (especially timeout), then application becomes non-responsive (repeating often on OS X with work around of restarting Mac).
Dreaming of offline "Fuzzy Bible Search" subset
Personally amazed and Thankful for Logos 7 and Verbum 7 being usable on a 2009 model laptop running Windows 10 with an Intel Core2Duo 2.26 GHz P8400 with 8 GB Ram and two SATA III Solid State Disks (SSD).
Thankful for many datasets that can be used in Visual Filters for highlighting: e.g. Inductive - Precept.
Thankful for Rosie's reply and Phil starting this thread.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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For me I don't need more features, more useless book collections (especially public domain), or doing exegesis from a few limited perspectives. What I would like is a streamlined interface that allows me to do exegesis like I was trained. What I would like is book collections geared to more contemporary theological streams of thought....liberation or political for example. What I would like is a more manageable and useful collection management tool. What I would like is a bible program instead of a sophisticated librarian. Most of all I would like a useful tool that helps in my daily professional and spiritual life.
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Faithlife has produced so many great tools, datasets, etc, which is awesome. I would like to see them dedicate a significant amount of time to going back through resources and upgrading the tagging to improve integration. Factbook alone as a tool has so much potential, but there are so many things that do not show up in it because resources are not tagged adequately.
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Matthew said:
Faithlife has produced so many great tools, datasets, etc, which is awesome. I would like to see them dedicate a significant amount of time to going back through resources and upgrading the tagging to improve integration. Factbook alone as a tool has so much potential, but there are so many things that do not show up in it because resources are not tagged adequately.
[Y] I learned early on not to rely on Factbook, because many results would be missing from it.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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I would really like some custom internet search templates available in the guides.
This would make it possible to set up to search any website, see Google images (which I use a lot), and something like Evernote for access to saved articles. As good as Logos is and all the books, often an article online is much more simple and quick. It's no use trying to replace or keep up with the internet, just gotta integrate it in if you want Logos to be comprehensive.
That and responsiveness:)
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PetahChristian said:
I learned early on not to rely on Factbook, because many results would be missing from it.
I'm confused - Factbook is not intended to be complete but rather the top listing.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
We'd like to understand how you use Logos (the desktop version) and how you'd like to see us improve it to meet your Bible study needs better. Please help us help you by taking this 10-question survey.
Feel free to expand on your responses in this thread if you'd like.
Thanks for your help, and Merry Christmas!
I filled out the survey. I'll repeat my major comments.
First, I'm generally satisfied with Logos, though I know I only use a small fraction of its abilities and features. At this point I couldn't imagine working without it.
In terms of needed improvements: the lack of proper links and the hit-or-miss nature of them--you have absolutely no idea how good they will be in any given resource until you buy--this, in my mind, is by far the biggest problem with Logos. One could say it's chiefly in older resources, but that's not so; Aulen's Christus Victor, released this year, doesn't link to Harnack, which is a shame.
Program performance is also fairly poor; it hangs my system more than another application I run. I have noticed this particularly since the release of 7, which face it isn't much of an upgrade from 6. On the other hand, I have noticed a general slowdown in my system the last few months after a few large Win10 updates, so I'm not entirely sure this is all FL's fault.
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I like how Faithlife values user input. Thanks for giving us an option to voice our areas of interest and needs.
But I'm sad that there is still no category for translation or field work. Just looking at one specific Faithlife group for translators, it has 730 members. That is quite a significant number. There are people other than pastors or classroom teachers that use Logos on a regular basis. But so far Faithlife has never asked whether we use Logos for Bible translation, church planting (writing a Bible curriculum, teaching, preaching, discipling) in other languages etc. Logos has great tools for that. Tools that help distill the meaning of a passage and put it into another language. Tools to consider cultural background etc. But non of that really is Bible study, or teaching/preaching like in an american context.
Just a thought
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
Thanks for your help, and Merry Christmas!
By the way, Thanks Phil and all FL team and Merry Christmas!
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Survey taken! I'll emphasize one inclusion that would be different for Logos. The inclusion of guided mini lessons would be good, even for the most basic users. These lessons can be text based (no video production), free or less than $10 in cost, include a QA throughout, and be topical or book based.
Examples of this type of lesson can be found extensively on the internet and BSM.
Merry Christmas, Faithlife. [:)]
EDIT: Here are a couple of random links for example I just picked on the internet.
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Rosie Perera said:
Thanks for the survey. I'll expand on my #1 request: Make it faster in all sorts of ways. UI responsiveness mostly. Dropdowns, etc.
So great to see you back Rosie have a blessed Christmas and great new year.
-Dan
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Rosie Perera said:
Thanks for the survey. I'll expand on my #1 request: Make it faster in all sorts of ways. UI responsiveness mostly. Dropdowns, etc.
+1
for user responsiveness.Good to hear from you again Rosie. And I totally agree with your #1 request. It was mine as well.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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MJ. Smith said:
one on what we need to move Logos into the general congregation.
I totally agree with this too. Personally I love Logos but every time I talk to people in about this the conclusion that is usually reached is that it is just not well-suited for them (too cumbersome and too expensive).
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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I've done the survey, but I just will post here my major desires. That would include more resources and better maps. I would prefer that your time was spent on making resources available so that I can maximize my study. Please don't waste time working on features that do the "interpretation for me." Leave that for me to do as I study.
Thanks, Logos!
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Rosie Perera said:
Thanks for the survey. I'll expand on my #1 request: Make it faster in all sorts of ways. UI responsiveness mostly. Dropdowns, etc.
+1
for user responsiveness.+1 here, too, for user responsiveness--especially for reduced clicks in both the Bible/Verbum apps & L7. One place I'd like to see reduced clicks is in search results. I want to scroll through all results, not scroll + tab, when results (often) exceed one page. I don't want either the click or the wait while the page is refreshed. I dream of it scrolling the same way L7 & Verbum / Bible apps allow scrolling through a Bible.
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0 -
Survey taken. Thanks for the last two open-ended feedback entries. [:)]
OF COURSE, I forgot to mention something in the survey. I'd like to see more/better graphics (maps, charts, photos) as well as better tagging and integration of those resources, particularly for basic Bible study.
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Gao Lu said:
- To find what I am searching for even if I don't search perfectly.
I would like the Logos Now "Fuzzy Search" to work on a more wide scale, i.e. not just for searching the Bible.
Pastor, Mt. Leonard Baptist Church, SBC
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I'm curious about one thing: with all the data sitting out there on UserVoice, why is this survey needed? Is this survey to update what's on UV, an augment to it, or is that information considered too out-of-date to be useful?
(FWIW, I did complete the survey. I'm not opposed to it, I'm simply curious about how the survey and the UV data are related and how they are going to be integrated/used.)
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Rosie Perera said:
I'll expand on my #1 request: Make it faster in all sorts of ways.
+1
I really struggle with startup times.Dreaming of "Preparing Library ..." notification expansion to include collection cache refresh. In an installation with hundreds of collections and 21,000+ resources, refreshing collection cache takes several minutes.
+1
I have the same issue. Many times I have to force quit Logos as it has become non-responsive. Logos does not seem to be able to handle large libraries. I deleted already many collections but it has not helped." rel="nofollow">Keep Smiling 4 Jesus
said:Dreaming of allowing user to use Logos and Verbum while sync is in progress. If sync encounters an error (especially timeout), then application becomes non-responsive (repeating often on OS X with work around of restarting Mac).+1
Agreed. This would result in fewer force quits.Dreaming of offline "Fuzzy Bible Search" subset
+1
Would be excellent for traveling.0 -
I wish more attention was paid to the Windows text-to-speech interface. Once the program starts reading, it is really hard to reposition the reading point. Within the Course Tool it is nearly unusable. It's a shame since Windows has greatly improved the quality of the audio beginning in Windows 8.
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For many years I have quit reading Logos on my desktop and do all my reading on my iPad. This is because taking notes on the iPad gives me better controls. The iPad will allow me to choose which notes file is to receive the note on the fly. I can see all my existing note files and dump each note into a different file. This is great for collecting notes topically. I can even create a new note file while I am in the process of taking the note.
The desktop gives me a selection which seems to be related to the current note files which are open on the desktop.
The Courses tool brings this to a head! As I move from unit to unit, I wish to take notes not even knowing which resource will be in the next unit. Therefore, it is impossible to create or open the note file in advance. I may not wish to collect the notes for a course in a single course specific file. As is my usual practice, I spread notes by topic into various pre-existing note files.
The Courses tool is great. I am currently taking my first course on Calvin and His Writings. But distributing notes into topical files is very difficult from the desktop and I can't use the Courses tool from my iPad! [:(]
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
Thanks for your help, and Merry Christmas!
You're very welcome. Thank you for asking!
In my feedback to the survey, I asked for three things:
1. Faster desktop software.
2. Better resource QA.
3. Page numbers for Noet and Vyrso ebooks.
Because (which I did not mention):
1. I would be happier with the desktop software and use it more and recommend it (even) more.
2. I would be happier with FL and use the desktop and mobile software more and recommend the ecosystem (even) more.
3. I would buy plenty more books from FaithLife and be happier with FL and use their software more and recommend it (even) more to a wider audience of people.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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I agree with everyone wanting Logos to be faster. But I also want Logos to help me work quicker. While I understand that the workflow would be different from person to person some changes have value for many users I think. There where some great changes in this respect in L7: Sermon documents and the Home Page Layouts. More changes like this would be much appreciated. This includes homepage layouts for things like ME, devotionals, prayer lists etc.
At the same time there are several strange things in notes that makes work with notes slower than necessary. For example, to my knowledge there is no possibility to jump from a note title to contents using enter or tab or something similar, you have to use the mouse. Also, using shortcut keys to notes does not make you able to actually type in the note and there are probably other things as well.
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Johan L said:
While I understand that the workflow would be different from person to person some changes have value for many users I think.
I'd like to see a variety of users to provide examples of their workflow or the workflow they envision for the lay user ... and identify the roadblocks in that workflow.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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One time sink leaps to mind--I run into this nearly every day:
I use resource-specific notes. The first time I take notes in a resource, there is no way to save those notes to the file until the file is created. My usual strategy for creating the file is to highlight text and then remove the highlighting. Then I have a file in which to create my notes.
Surely there is some intuitive way Logos can guess that I intend to create a note file and have it ready-made when I want it.
At least create a menu option as if the file existed and then if I actually make a note, then Logos could go ahead right quick and actually create the file.
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David A Egolf said:
taking notes on the iPad gives me better controls. The iPad will allow me to choose which notes file is to receive the note on the fly. I can see all my existing note files and dump each note into a different file
I checked Improve Notes as very important—This one addition would improve note-taking tremendously.
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I've been telling you for years, and you've not listened.
1. The primary improvement in notes needs to be better integration with outside packages, even on other devices, rather than trying to make Logos replace every other piece of software in the world.
2. The quality and scope of the library needs huge improvements.
3. The biblio information contained in the library is more often wrong than right, and Logos needs integration with tools like Zotero, rather than assuming all citations are going to come out of Logos.
4. Users need to be able to selectively synchronize information onto the Logos cloud servers, and possibly even use their own personal cloud drive services for things like personal books (OneDrive, SpiderOak, DropBox, etc.).
5. The software needs to run a lot faster, and the search capabilities need to be improved. I often find it easier to find a passage of Scripture on Bing than I do in Logos, and yet this is supposed to be Logos' primary job.
6. If you are going to do any sort of scheduling, integrate with some other scheduling platform, such as Outlook/g-suite/etc., rather than building something completely new. The last thing I want in my life is to be required to open yet another calendar to get to yet another part of the list of things I need to do/should do today. Logos isn't going to replace these things, so it should try to work with them.
In general, Faithlife needs to stop acting like every one of their users opens Logos first thing on booting their computer, and then perhaps (just maybe) uses an email program besides, and needs/wants/uses nothing else. Focus on what you do well, and leave the rest to people who focus on what they do well, rather than continuing to try to be all things to all people.
Russ
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MJ. Smith said:Johan L said:
While I understand that the workflow would be different from person to person some changes have value for many users I think.
I'd like to see a variety of users to provide examples of their workflow or the workflow they envision for the lay user ... and identify the roadblocks in that workflow.
Honestly, the principal thing that negatively affects my workflow on a daily basis is simply the program's speed. Opening new tabs and floating windows, loading guides and saved templates, closing multiple/all tabs and windows at the same time, opening the Library as a new tab/window... how slow these things are is my principal annoyance when using the desktop software.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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I've wondered a lot about the direction Logos has gone. My impression is the marketing sell-point is 'I might need this.' So, Logos keeps adding more 'I might need this' features. I also suspect the features speak to available talent already on-board.
And, my guess is that very few actually need the new features, if only because it's fairly obvious few know how to use them. They need a New Years resolution just to try.
My other observation is, the approach (complexity and high entry-point) looks a lot like the 1990's (not meant as criticism). But each new feature seems to assume the user has one program and then progressively learns that one program. A lot like Excel or Word used to be.
My guess is religion (daily) and Bible study is far more fragmented. Social interaction on Facebook, messaging, a constant stream of 'look at this!', calendars, and the most important: Google.
I can see Russ's point, but you'd need a whole new app. There's not enough marginal money left in the Logos app to fund very much. 'Catholic' made that point loud and clear last year.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Thanks for the opportunity to voice our opinions. It's great to know that the developers are interested in the experiences of users. It doesn't always seem that way with other software companies, so I appreciate this opportunity. Sorry that this will be a very long post, but I experience a lot of frustration with this software. I'm a Verbum (Catholic) user with Logos 6. I won't pay money to upgrade based on all my concerns detailed here.
In general, the resources available in Verbum are tremendous, but the usability of the software needs vast improvement. My overall impression is that it’s built for use by software developers, as it seems like I’m always struggling to figure out how to do what should be very simple tasks.
Specifically (details below):
- Layouts are difficult to use and unintuitive.
- Layouts don’t open where you left off last.
- The software adds resources to layouts on its own.
- You can’t open more than one layout at a time.
- There's no direct way to create a new layout.
- Simple searches are not possible without using obscure codes.
- Basic searches (like all instances of one highlight style) require obscure codes.
- Search results don’t display all results across all resources.
- Creating a reading list of any appreciable size is a hassle.
- Auto-generation of reading plans is too limited.
- Creating a custom reading plan is a major hassle.
- Miscellaneous improvements to the mobile and desktop apps.
This may be along the lines of what MJ is asking — how to get it out into the general congregation (which is where I am) — but my primary suggestion would be this: stop all new feature development and focus exclusively on rebuilding the interface from the ground up with a focus on usability for the masses. Imagine if you offered an easy to use yet powerful software + resources package that even us common folk found a joy to use? Maybe a low cost ($50?) starter package with a few Bible translations, a solid commentary, the Catechism, and a few of the more popular encyclicals? I’d get my whole parish using it! I recognize that’s far easier to say than it is to do, but that’s the art of development: making complex tasks easy.
Unfortunately I can honestly say that I would not have bought this software last year if I’d have known then how difficult it is to use, and there’s no chance I’m paying to upgrade unless I’m confident the user experience is radically improved. If I could do it over I would have put the money toward an iPad and started collecting ebooks and PDFs of the few resources I actually use. Also, sadly, I cannot recommend it in good conscience to anybody in my parish for personal Bible study who isn’t very technologically proficient and patient. I wouldn’t do that to them.
Here’s my detailed feedback.
1. Layouts are difficult to use and unintuitive.
- Layouts don’t open where you left off last: If I have my Bible in the layout, logic would suggest that if I stopped reading yesterday at the end of Mark 3, opening the layout tomorrow should open right where I stopped reading but it doesn't. It returns to whatever state it was in the last time I took a snapshot last week or last month. The places in the resources, the arrangement of panes, and which tabs are active should appear where I left off. The only way to do that is to drill down into the “Layouts” menu (which means nothing to a newbie), hopefully click exactly on the tiny little hidden arrow that you can’t even see until you point to it, and select “update to current snapshot” (again, to a newbie, that means nothing). I had to find out all of this in the forums after tearing my hair out in frustration at why it wouldn’t just open where I left off, which one would expect it to do.
- The software adds resources to layouts on its own: After finally, carefully putting together a layout with all the resources and tools I want at hand to do my Bible study, it’s frustrating when I click on something in the home page and it opens in a seemingly random tab in my carefully constructed layout. Open them in a new window.
- You can’t open more than one layout at a time: I don’t know what kind of thing is happening on the back end, but why not just open each layout in its own window so we can flip back and forth between them?
- There's no direct way to create a new layout: There should be an obvious way (a “New Layout” button or menu option) to create a new layout. Since there doesn’t seem to be that clear way, I end up closing all the resources in my meticulously created layout — fearing that my layout will be lost in the process — then open new resources, and click Save As Named Layout. Again, it took a trip to the forums to even figure out what all that meant. None of it is intuitive or easy to figure out.
2. Searching is overly complicated and incomplete.
- Basic searches require obscure codes: To find, for example, all the passages in my resources that I have highlighted with a specific style (say, “Saint Quotes”), I have to open a search tab and type {Highlight palette name/style name} — I had to go look that up again just now because it’s not intuitive or easy to remember. I should be able to right-click on style and click, “Find All” or be able to create a new document from a style like I can with a palette.
- Search results don’t display all results across all resources: Using the carefully crafted search codes mentioned above, I get results for the highlight style across all my resources… but it only displays three results at a time for each resource, requiring me to open each resource in yet another tab. I just want to see them all at once. To prevent bogging down, feel free to not load the results until I expand a resource arrow, but I shouldn’t have to open each in a new tab when the whole point of the search was to see them all at once.
3. Creating a reading list of any appreciable size is a hassle.
- Auto-generation of reading plans is too limited: I appreciate that there’s an auto-generate option for creating a reading plan, but it’s limited in what it creates, with dates being the only focus. It should provide options like, “1 chapter per day” or “two chapters per day” and not be restricted to a specific time frame.
- Creating a custom reading plan is a major hassle: I wasn’t able to create the reading plan I wanted with the auto-generation features, but I soon found out how difficult it would be to do within the software. Again, I had to go out to the forums and find the specific codes for each book of the Bible, cook up an Excel spreadsheet to create the list, then paste it into the box in the software to get the list how I wanted it, and that didn’t always work. It took hours to create just a few reading plans. I should be able to create a reading plan from the table of contents of a resource by highlighting, multi-selecting, or something.
4. Miscellaneous improvements to the mobile and desktop apps.
- In the mobile app, I should be able to set my own default highlighting palette that will appear when I select an existing highlight. Having to drill down into multiple levels every time I want to change a highlight is a pain. (I haven’t used the iPhone app in 6 months, and just now started using the Fire app, so my experience here may be outdated.)
- In the mobile app, I should be able to add any resource I want to the home page to quickly access my current reading.
- In the desktop app, the scroll bars are a mess. All the dashed lines for highlights make them impossible to use as a regular scroll bar, and I can’t see how they’re useful for what they’re intended for. A highlights menu or slide out drawer that lists all the highlights in a resource would be much better.
- Let me just upload a PDF into my personal books. Sometimes I don’t care about all the crazy functionality, I just want to be able to read the PDF and highlight it. Having to export a PDF to Word then import it is a hit-or-miss affair and way more trouble than it’s worth. I don’t even use this feature anymore.
There’s probably more I could say but I haven’t the time. It seems to me with Logos 8 you should just start from the ground up, maybe choose a different dev platform instead of the browser based one you're using if that’s preventing ease-of-use improvements, and start all over with the user experience and ease of use as the ONLY priority.
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Scott Spinola said:
stop all new feature development and focus exclusively on rebuilding the interface from the ground up with a focus on usability
Well said, Scott.
My details were listed differently, but if I had to summarize what I wrote in a single sentence, you captured it pretty well above.
Scott Spinola said:I can honestly say that I would not have bought this software last year if I’d have known then how difficult it is to use, and there’s no chance I’m paying to upgrade unless I’m confident the user experience is radically improved
I fear this exact line of thinking is a bigger problem for FL than they realize. I've said pretty much the same thing. While I've continued to stay at the current updgrade level, I've done so at the absolute minimum cost and cut back on resource purchasing as well. Buyer remorse is not well mitigated using FOMO, but that seems to be the (unintentional?) strategy at times. (Evidence of this? Take a look at the practical effect of the two-class customer system that has been implemented, and look at how the 7.3 About page describes someone without the current library.)
Again, well said.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Happy New Year everyone.
My news years wish is Logos revamp from the ground up...seriously.
Make it simpler and more intuitive to use with tools that are obvious and used by the regular churchgoer sitting in a round table Bible study getting ready to read aloud next. Help with pronunciation and enable that person (us) to use the tools quickly and effectively. When others turn and say "What tool is that you are using?". We would then be proud to say aloud "Logos Bible software".
Right now....I am not. I hope in the future I can say those words. All to often I hear "We will come back to you" or "next".
God bless all the hardworking Faithlife crew....start anew please.
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Scott Spinola said:
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In general, the resources available in Verbum are tremendous, but the usability of the software needs vast improvement. My overall impression is that it’s built for use by software developers, as it seems like I’m always struggling to figure out how to do what should be very simple tasks.
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Yes!! In a nut shell. I love the resources and the power I should have. I've struggled for years with searches. I thought I was just stupid.
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Hey Scott,
I too was frustrated by not having Logos open to where I left it when I closed the program. But if you go into Tools and program settings, under general- At start up open to, Most recent layout- any; it will open to the same place you left it when you closed Logos. This way I didn't have to create a layout or remember to save it when I close the software. And it is the same place as when I left it.
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Thanks for that, Lonnie, that's a good tip. I just tried it though. It actually doesn't save the layout as a new permanent state of the layout. It's only temporary.
Let's say I have two layouts: Bible Study Layout and Catechism Study Layout.
Scenario 1: I open Bible Study Layout at the beginning of Mark, read to the end of Mark 3, then close the application while the Bible Study Layout is open. Then I restart.
- Verbum opens to the Bible Study Layout at the end of Mark 3.
Scenario 2: I open Bible Study Layout at the beginning of Mark, read to the end of Mark 3, then open my Catechism Study Layout, read a few chapters, then open the Bible Study Layout again, it doesn't open to the end of Mark 3, but the beginning of Mark as the last "saved" state.
This is a decent workaround if you only use one layout and don't switch off it, but it's not a real solution if you have more than one.
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Scott you can only save the last layout open in your scenario. Save the Bible Study layout BEFORE you open the Catechism Study layout and you'll be fine.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rosie Perera said:
Those are my two biggest complaints right now. I don't need more features. I only use a small fraction of the ones that are in Logos already.
IMHO the doyenne of Logos has said it perfectly. [Y]
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Scott Spinola said:
- Layouts are difficult to use and unintuitive.
- Layouts don’t open where you left off last.
- The software adds resources to layouts on its own.
- You can’t open more than one layout at a time.
- There's no direct way to create a new layout.
FaithLife conceptualizes layouts differently than you (and many other people) do. For them, Layouts are principally starting points, not trackers of ongoing work. Their approach supports a common workflow model... but not your (common) workflow model. "Self-Updating Layouts" (need a better name) would be a nice option to have in order to properly support your style of workflow. (I use both models.)
Scott Spinola said:There's no direct way to create a new layout: There should be an obvious way (a “New Layout” button or menu option) to create a new layout. Since there doesn’t seem to be that clear way, I end up closing all the resources in my meticulously created layout — fearing that my layout will be lost in the process — then open new resources, and click Save As Named Layout. Again, it took a trip to the forums to even figure out what all that meant. None of it is intuitive or easy to figure out.
I find the "save as named layout" link in blue letters that appears after I click on "Layouts" in the top right-hand corner direct and straightforward. As with the above issue, it's a fundamental difference in understanding between you and FL that creates the confusion. Changing the blue text to "save as new named layout" would, I think, be an improvement.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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If you want Logos to run faster, then take away all the i7 processors and SSD drives from the developers. Make them develop on slower, smaller machines. A large number of your developers should have 8 GB of RAM, or less, rather than 16 GB. Sorry, developers, but if you don't feel the pain, then you won't know what needs to be fixed.
When I first went to work at a mainframe computer manufacturer in the 1970's, the software developers were using a large set of in-house tools to navigate around our time sharing system. Management stepped in and made us throw any of the tools out that couldn't be given to the customers. Thus, the customer interfaces were improved when we were forced to use them.
During the development of a collaboration web site about 15 years ago, I asked management to not upgrade any of our PC's. I had seen too many software applications which were really sluggish because the developers had clearly been working on the latest, fastest, and largest systems. Their user community had suffered.
Since we were developing a web site, I divided different browser responsibilities between members of the team. We even had assignments for each of the latest versions of Firefox. I think the analog for Logos is to make sure that some developers are working with introductory packages while some are working on full portfolio collections. Thus, at least some of the developers are going to notice if opening a library window takes too long. (This is a concession to MJ who specifically complained about this. Since I never see the problem, I suspect it is due to her large library.)
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David, I always wanted to do that, but fast computers meant faster development. The solution was to give the boss the typical customer computer (under-powered). Then she (me) would do the squealing. Very quickly.
The other requirement I had was always test with people who don't care (normal people). Beta testers usually are not normal people.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Thanks for your thoughts SineNomine. Here are mine.
SineNomine said:FaithLife conceptualizes layouts differently than you (and many other people) do. For them, Layouts are principally starting points, not trackers of ongoing work. Their approach supports a common workflow model... but not your (common) workflow model. "Self-Updating Layouts" (need a better name) would be a nice option to have in order to properly support your style of workflow. (I use both models.)
I can't imagine a scenario where starting in then exact same place is worthwhile and don't really need to. To each his own. If that's something people want to do (as you said you do), a simple preference called "Auto-Save Layouts" would do the job. But it ought to default to be on, since I think that makes the most intuitive sense to people.
SineNomine said:I find the "save as named layout" link in blue letters that appears after I click on "Layouts" in the top right-hand corner direct and straightforward. As with the above issue, it's a fundamental difference in understanding between you and FL that creates the confusion. Changing the blue text to "save as new named layout" would, I think, be an improvement.
The problem with that is that is someone new to the software would not (I don't think) assume that after working and reading that the layout would reset to the where it started. An uninitiated user would not imagine the workflow you describe because it's not common.
Also, the way it's designed now, to create a new layout, you first have to have everything in place before "save as named layout" even makes sense. How do you start to do that if you have a layout open? You need to remove things from your current layout and add new ones. If I create a new thing in any other software I don't start by taking apart another thing. That's not very intuitive. A "Create New Layout" option would be far better. It would close the current layout (and save it if that's the preference setting) and open a blank one. I think that makes far more sense than the current way. If I had to delete the story I've been writing in my word processor, then type my new story over it before I could save it, I don't think I'd ever use that software.
I maintain that the way the software is designed creates a very high and intimidating barrier to entry for new users.It even looks difficult to use. That you and other power users know how it works because you've been using it that way is great, but that doesn't mean it's intuitive. It just means you figured it out.
The best designed software doesn't need a manual. How to do things is easy to figure out. This software not only needs a manual, but it needs a 24/7 personal tutor.
If Logos wants to stay as a niche product — if that's their business model — then so be it. If, however (as MJ asked) they want to get it out into the congregation, it needs a complete overhaul with a focus on usability.
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MJ. Smith said:
Scott you can only save the last layout open in your scenario. Save the Bible Study layout BEFORE you open the Catechism Study layout and you'll be fine.
I know. Thank you MJ. My point was that that preference was not a solution to the problem of layouts not auto-saving because there's only a single scenario where it works. Thanks for the tip though.
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I disagree Scott
the way it currently works is exactly how I assumed as a new user and exactly how I want it to perform
in the process of study I often make a mess of things, opening lots of windows. But I like being able to start fresh with a new clean workspace each time
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