Search for <Topic Burning Bush>

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Armin | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, May 29 2017 6:40 PM

Hi,

I wanted to quickly look for the reference of the story with Moses and the burning bush. I started a Bible search. When I started writing Burning Bush, I got the suggestion  <Topic Burning Bush>, which I selected. However, it gave no results. Then I did a "Search All Text in All Resources" and again searched for <Topic Burning Bush>, but again: no results.

Am I doing here something wrong?

Armin

Posts 754
David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 29 2017 7:00 PM

When I start a Bible Search with: Search All Bible Text in All Passages in the ESV for __________________

If I type Burning Bush, it does not suggest <Topic Burning Bush>.

BTW: I have the latest updated Logos 7 on Windows 10.

If I go ahead and type in <Topic Burning Bush> then I get 4 verses in Exodus and one verse in Deuteronomy.    I get the same results with my NIV.  However, I do not get any results if I attempt the same search with the AV (Authorized Version).

So, what are the details of the search you are using?

Posts 2302
Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 29 2017 7:15 PM

Armin:
I wanted to quickly look for the reference of the story with Moses and the burning bush.

Try <Thing Burning Bush>

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 29 2017 7:44 PM

Beloved:

Try <Thing Burning Bush>

<Thing Burning Bush> is what my Logos 7 suggests rather than the use of Topic.  However, I get the same result with Thing as I get with Topic; i.e.,  5 verses for ESV or NIV, but no result for AV.

Posts 2302
Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 29 2017 8:14 PM

David A Egolf:
<Thing Burning Bush> is what my Logos 7 suggests rather than the use of Topic.  However, I get the same result with Thing as I get with Topic; i.e.,  5 verses for ESV or NIV, but no result for AV.

David, I'm no techie so the explanation I form will lack precision. The reason you don't get results for the AV has something to do with how it's tagged. The AV is not a RVI if you query "bush" you will return results. Also the KJV 1900 which is a RVI gives results for <Thing Burning Bush.>

Edit: The best way to query bibles so that you consistently see results is to query "bush."

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

Posts 754
David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 29 2017 8:34 PM

It's not my problem.  It is Armin's problem.  I am just suggesting to him that the reason he doesn't get results may be based on the way he forms the rest of the query, especially the choice of Bible to scan.

At this point we are waiting for Armin to respond with more details about his search criteria.

Posts 737
Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 29 2017 8:56 PM

Dear all,

Many thanks for your suggestions. If I search for <Topic Burning Bush> in all resources, I don't get any results. "All Resources" includes all my Bibles. 

If I search for <Thing Burning Bush>, then I get 5 Bible verses.

If I use the topic guide to explore Burning Bush, I do get results, incl. 4 Bible verses. 

In short: If Logos suggests the search <Thing Burning Bush>, it should provide results, especially as some tagging appears to have been implemented.

Or maybe, this is just an issue with Logos on Mac.

Posts 754
David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 29 2017 9:16 PM

Armin:

Dear all,

Many thanks for your suggestions. If I search for <Topic Burning Bush> in all resources, I don't get any results. "All Resources" includes all my Bibles. 

If I search for <Thing Burning Bush>, then I get 5 Bible verses.

If I use the topic guide to explore Burning Bush, I do get results, incl. 4 Bible verses. 

In short: If Logos suggests the search <Thing Burning Bush>, it should provide results, especially as some tagging appears to have been implemented.

Or maybe, this is just an issue with Logos on Mac.

Armin,

Could you provide a screen shot of your <Topic Burning Bush> search?  My Bible search does not give me the option of All Resources.  But my <Topic Burning Bush> search provides full results.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 29 2017 10:34 PM

David A Egolf:
My Bible search does not give me the option of All Resources.

Use a Basic Search.

Dave
===

Windows & Android

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David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 29 2017 10:43 PM

My point was that Armin was claiming to perform a Bible search, but he also reported that he had done an All Resources search, which included his Bibles.  He has yet to give us all the parameters of his search, but I am suspicious that he is not doing a Bible search.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 29 2017 11:02 PM

Armin:
When I started writing Burning Bush, I got the suggestion  <Topic Burning Bush>, which I selected. However, it gave no results. Then I did a "Search All Text in All Resources" and again searched for <Topic Burning Bush>, but again: no results.

Logos is leading you astray with this suggestion, and I've tried for some time to get Faithlife to fix it. Use other suggestions.

If you are looking for the topic use Topic Guide or Factbook.

Alternatively, right click the word in a bible e.g. 'bush' in Ex 3:2. The RHS of the context menu will suggest related categories:-

Select one of those and click a Search on the LHS. You will get a search with results e.g.

<Thing Burning Bush>   ---> more productive!

{Label Figure of Speech WHERE Description ~ "Transfer" AND Name ~ "Synecdoché"}  ---> for "burning bush" and other figures of speech

{Section <LongacreGenre = Narr: Story>}  ---> for "burning bush" and other narrative stories.

Dave
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David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 29 2017 11:10 PM

Dave,

There is something else going on more than a better search term.  Armin said that his search for <Topic Burning Bush> returned no results when he had told it to search all of his Bibles.  While it might not be the best search term, as you note, it still should have returned the four verses that I have in my result.  Therefore, his search is not well formed in some other way.  Thus, we need to get him to transcribe ALL of his search terms; e.g., Bible, Search ALL Text; etc., or include a screen shot.  Otherwise, he may get what appear to be better results from <Thing Burning Bush>, but still not be doing the search he thinks he is doing.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 29 2017 11:10 PM

David A Egolf:
My point was that Armin was claiming to perform a Bible search

He omitted the change of Search, but it could only be a Basic Search as a "Search All Text in All Resources" is not possible with a Bible Search.

Dave
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David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 29 2017 11:16 PM

And yet, if one performs a Basic search with the term <Topic Burning Bush> one gets a bunch of hits including Biblical references.  So Basic Search still does not explain what he is doing.

The only way I was able to get "no results" when searching <Topic Burning Bush> was when I specified a Bible which Beloved pointed out did not have an RI (which may or may not be the issue).  It is also possible that Armin is inadvertently limiting a Bible search to the N.T.  While he says "all resources", people are many time not exact and he may mean "all Bibles".

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 29 2017 11:37 PM

Yes, I was coming around to your search!

David A Egolf:
If I type Burning Bush, it does not suggest <Topic Burning Bush>. 

David A Egolf:
While it might not be the best search term, as you note, it still should have returned the four verses that I have in my result.  Therefore, his search is not well formed in some other way. 

David A Egolf:
And yet, if one performs a Basic search with the term <Topic Burning Bush> one gets a bunch of hits including Biblical references.

You have (accidentally) checked "Match equivalent references" in the search menu. It would have tried (internally) a search for <Topic Burning Bush>, <Thing Burning Bush>, <Event Burning Bush> etc. so your results actually came from <Thing Burning Bush>!

When not checked you will get a suggestion for "Burning bush" ---> <Topic Burning Bush>, but no results.

Dave
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David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 30 2017 12:13 AM

O.K. So you have the situation cased.  However, how are users supposed to determine the range of references; i.e., which references are legitimate, and which are "equivalent"?

I just spent 30 minutes in the Logos help file and couldn't even find out that there was such a category as "Event".

BTW: I believe that I do, in general, want "Match all word forms" checked.  But I have no idea how "Match equivalent references" became checked or when it should be employed. 

Is "Match equivalent references" related to Sense searches?  I just performed my first of those.  One would expect that subordinate senses would be included in a search.  Perhaps that is related to "equivalent"?

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 30 2017 1:22 AM

David A Egolf:
The only way I was able to get "no results" when searching <Topic Burning Bush> was when I specified a Bible which Beloved pointed out did not have an RI (which may or may not be the issue). 

It didn't have an RI for the Old Testament, where the results are found. You see, the 'tagging' is performed on words in the LHB (Lexham Hebrew bible) and they have to be matched with the Hebrew in other bibles, or with bibles that have a Hebrew RI e.g. ESV, NASB95, LEB etc and Septuagint bibles like LXX Swete and Logos LXX). You can see this with the result for Ex 3:5 in the ESV, where a dot/period is highlighted; indicating that the Hebrew word is not translated in the ESV. Further, the word in LHB means "here"/"this position" so it has been tagged as a referent for "burning bush".

The NT "tagging" is based on SBLGNT.

Dave
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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 30 2017 3:07 AM

David A Egolf:
BTW: I believe that I do, in general, want "Match all word forms" checked.  But I have no idea how "Match equivalent references" became checked or when it should be employed. 

The first is OK as you are more aware its effect (on English words only!).

I don't use "Match equivalent references" because one does not know where the result comes from, and it may not be what one intended, even supposing you understood "equivalent" datatype references like <Topic Money> and <PreachingTheme Money>.

David A Egolf:
Is "Match equivalent references" related to Sense searches?

No.   <Sense ~knowledge> will find subordinate senses whilst <Sense =knowledge> is restricted to "knowledge/reason" --> don't ask "why is God a subordinate sense?"!

David A Egolf:
I just spent 30 minutes in the Logos help file and couldn't even find out that there was such a category as "Event".

I wish I hadn't mentioned it! The inbuilt Search "Help" with example searches will show it under Factbook. The suggested search <Event God floods the earth> will get no results in Bible search as it should be {Section <Event God floods the earth>},  but it will get a few results in Basic Search. Put this down to an inconsistency of implementation, although it comes from a legacy use of <Event> (and <Topic>).

Bottom line, don't confuse yourself by using "Match equivalent references" and use the Context menu/Topic Guide/Factbook as I suggested above if you are not getting expected Search results e.g. it shows that "Burning Bush" is a Thing and not a Topic.

Dave
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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 30 2017 5:59 AM

Armin:
I started a Bible search. When I started writing Burning Bush, I got the suggestion  <Topic Burning Bush>, which I selected.

Turns out that choosing Burning Bush Tree from suggestion list creates search, which works regardless of Match Equivalent Resources search setting.

Follow-up Bug thread => 7.7 Beta 3 BUG: Search for <Topic Burning Bush>

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 754
David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 30 2017 8:48 AM

Dave,

Thanks a lot for your analysis and persistence.  That was very helpful for me!

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