Lemma In Passage

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Alexander Fogassy | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Jul 17 2017 1:18 PM

In a Bible Word Study, the option for "Lemma in passage" seems to be incredibly helpful. The problem is, my package (for whatever reason) does not include this feature. It says that it can be made available with Logos Now. Does anyone know any other way to get this feature enabled? I.e. what base package (if any) does this start to be an option?

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 17 2017 1:32 PM

Alexander Fogassy:
It says that it can be made available with Logos Now. Does anyone know any other way to get this feature enabled? I.e. what base package (if any) does this start to be an option?

Sorry - this is only available with a Logos Now (or Cloud) subscription - and requires a network connection to work.

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Keith Pang | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 17 2017 1:47 PM

Logos Now is the way to go

Shalom, in Christ, Keith. Check out my music www.soundcloud.com/therealkpang

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Alexander Fogassy:

Does anyone know any other way to get this feature enabled? I.e. what base package (if any) does this start to be an option?

The best way to determine this type of information is to find the product page: https://www.logos.com/product/55915/lemma-in-passage

Then take a look at the column on the right side under "This title is included as a part of the following collections."

Posts 149
Alexander Fogassy | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 17 2017 8:14 PM

Yes, thank you I just happened to notice that a tutorial I was going through was able to use this function, and nothing about Logos Now was mentioned. I thought perhaps it might have been available in another base package. I wonder why an internet connection is required to search the resources already within my library? Thanks!

Alex

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 18 2017 1:45 PM

Alexander Fogassy:

Yes, thank you I just happened to notice that a tutorial I was going through was able to use this function, and nothing about Logos Now was mentioned. I thought perhaps it might have been available in another base package. I wonder why an internet connection is required to search the resources already within my library? Thanks!

Alex

Alex internet connection is needed because the search is handled by Logos rather than your computer. There are a few features that work this way in the Logos Now package.

Posts 149
Alexander Fogassy | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 18 2017 5:43 PM

But why is there an internet connection required to search the sources already within my library? 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 18 2017 5:48 PM

Alexander Fogassy:
why is there an internet connection required to search the sources already within my library?

Because the search is complex and most users computers wouldn't be able to handle it. 

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Posts 149
Alexander Fogassy | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 18 2017 7:39 PM

My computer can definitely handle it. I've got a rig that can handle just about anything -- built it myself. 

Too bad this feature can't be unlocked for those Logos customers who have the hardware...

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 18 2017 8:05 PM

Alexander Fogassy:
My computer can definitely handle it.

It's not necessarily processing power, but also has to do with the significant amount of disk space used by those databases and indexes, as well as the time and memory it takes to (re)create them.

It's a very reasonable trade-off for data like that to reside on and be processed by FL's servers, as most people probably don't have a high-end system with enough memory and disk space.

My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

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Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 18 2017 8:19 PM

Alexander Fogassy:

My computer can definitely handle it. I've got a rig that can handle just about anything -- built it myself. 

Too bad this feature can't be unlocked for those Logos customers who have the hardware...

You should consider how long it takes your library to run a full index to get a starting idea of the work involved. Then think of cross referencing every Greek or Hebrew word with the relevant passage,  first converting every declined word to its lemma.  I think you are underestimating the massive amount of computing power doing this from scratch would take (unless there is a clever shortcut I am missing). Once calculated,  that is going to be a large index file for each commentary.  It would be a neat subject for a blog post or FL Today to do a "How It's Made" type introduction to some of the cooler features like this. 

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 18 2017 9:09 PM

The short cut would be  a prebuilt index but these would still need to be hosted on Logos servers as to large to download and they would need to be regularly rebui every time a new applicable resource was released or an existing one updated.

Justin Gatlin:

Alexander Fogassy:

My computer can definitely handle it. I've got a rig that can handle just about anything -- built it myself. 

Too bad this feature can't be unlocked for those Logos customers who have the hardware...

You should consider how long it takes your library to run a full index to get a starting idea of the work involved. Then think of cross referencing every Greek or Hebrew word with the relevant passage,  first converting every declined word to its lemma.  I think you are underestimating the massive amount of computing power doing this from scratch would take (unless there is a clever shortcut I am missing). Once calculated,  that is going to be a large index file for each commentary.  It would be a neat subject for a blog post or FL Today to do a "How It's Made" type introduction to some of the cooler features like this. 

Posts 149
Alexander Fogassy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 19 2017 7:48 PM

Yes, I see what you're saying (especially if one has a lot of resources), but still I think there should be the option. I have plenty of disk space, plenty of memory, and a robust processor. It'd be nice to not have to pay a recurring fee to just use this feature. 

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Keith Pang | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 20 2017 5:22 PM

It's not that pricey to be a Logos Now member if you think about it. It's about $8.50 a month but paying it annually as $99.99. There are other perks that come along with Logos Now besides this feature

Shalom, in Christ, Keith. Check out my music www.soundcloud.com/therealkpang

Posts 149
Alexander Fogassy | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 21 2017 7:02 AM

Be that as it may, it still doesn't change the fact that a recurring fee is required to use one of the features in Logos 7. 

I'm not being bitter about it -- Logos is a fantastic product and Faithlife, just like any other company should, is going to maximize profit wherever able and ethical. 

I just wish this feature was available for those users who have the necessary hardware. 

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 21 2017 8:51 AM

The Lemma in Passage database is separate from the commentary resources it interacts with. And while it is large, it is also updated frequently (we release new commentaries and update existing commentaries frequently). This means it would also need to be delivered frequently to users, which would be a significant amount of bandwidth both for us and for users.

From our perspective, the feature is best implemented as a web service because this allows us to regularly update without requiring a large download burden on every licensed user every time the database is updated (which, as I said, can be frequent). Out of the 6,400 or so commentaries presently available for Logos, there are around 5,300 that have original language strings or transliteration strings within commentary text. Across these 5,300 commentaries we index nearly 7.3 million lemma items. We also index data for each updated version of each resource since originally shipping Lemma In Passage (because of the way the text that is lemmatized is located within the resource, the position of the lemmatized string can change). This means we don't just index a resource, but each version of a resource so that those with older resource versions can still utilize the functionality.

I'm not saying that local delivery of this data will never happen. I am saying that the present data and feature implementation does not account for that possibility (for reasons stated above), and it would require some investment to make it happen.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 149
Alexander Fogassy | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 21 2017 9:04 AM

Rick,

That is a wonderfully adequate explanation. I look forward to any expansion on this tool-set in Logos, but now I see where you're coming from. 

Thanks!

Alex

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David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 21 2017 9:29 AM

Alexander Fogassy:
Be that as it may, it still doesn't change the fact that a recurring fee is required to use one of the features in Logos 7. 

Instead of thinking "Logos 7 owners are getting shorted" one could think of it as "Logos Now subscribers are getting early access to features of Logos 8". Those who subscribe are paying for early access to coming features.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

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