New Windows option in 7.9 Beta 1 to make Logos faster

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LogosEmployee
Ryan Gano (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 23 2017 9:06 AM

Dave Hooton:

QUESTION:

How do we get rid of previous assemblies as the new one doesn't remove the old one?

Dave, I'm looking into this and I don't see old assemblies being kept around. I'd like to know what you're seeing so we can correct the issue.

My steps (for comparison)

  1. Run logos.exe /ngen
  2. Run C:\Windows\Microsoft.NET\Framework64\v4.0.30319\ngen.exe display Logos
  3. Note that it has the current version on my system (7.9.0.6)
  4. Update to the new beta (for me this was 7.9.0.8)
  5. Run logos.exe /ngen
  6. Run C:\Windows\Microsoft.NET\Framework64\v4.0.30319\ngen.exe display Logos
  7. Note that it only shows a single assembly (7.9.0.8)

There is an update command that can be run. I'm not exactly sure what it will do since I cannot reproduce the issue you're seeing.

Posts 25652
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 23 2017 8:49 PM
  1. Run C:\Windows\Microsoft.NET\Framework64\v4.0.30319\ngen.exe display Logos
  2. Displays 7.9.0.8 (from 17/8 4.50pm)  and 7.8.0.37 (from 24/8 12:35pm)
  3. Update to the new beta (7.9.0.10)
  4. Run logos.exe /ngen
  5. Run C:\Windows\Microsoft.NET\Framework64\v4.0.30319\ngen.exe display Logos
  6. Displays 7.9.0.10 (from 24/8 1:04pm) and 7.8.0.37

When I checked C:\Windows\assembly\NativeImages_v4.0.30319_64 I realised I had been mislead by the assembly timestamps i.e folders dated 17/8 4.50pm had sub-folders dated 24/8 whilst the rest of the assemblies were in folders dated 24/8 1.04pm. Total folder size was 428 MB vs. 445 MB.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 3942
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 24 2017 9:30 AM

Without ngen:

OurApp Starting application (7.9 Beta 4, version 7.9.0.0010 x64 on Microsoft Windows NT 10.0.15063.0, .NET 4.0.30319.42000) at 1.511 seconds.

7.8 was a little faster, but not much. maybe .1 or .2 seconds.

With ngen:

OurApp Starting application (7.9 Beta 4, version 7.9.0.0010 x64 on Microsoft Windows NT 10.0.15063.0, .NET 4.0.30319.42000) at 4.333 seconds
Second run was about the same: 4.2
Third was better: OurApp Starting application (7.9 Beta 4, version 7.9.0.0010 x64 on Microsoft Windows NT 10.0.15063.0, .NET 4.0.30319.42000) at 1.562 seconds
Fourth
OurApp Starting application (7.9 Beta 4, version 7.9.0.0010 x64 on Microsoft Windows NT 10.0.15063.0, .NET 4.0.30319.42000) at 1.115 seconds.

Is this expected behavior?

Initially thats a VERY significant slow down.

AMD Ryzen 1800+ (well 1700 overclocked to the speed of an 1800), 16gb ddr4 running at 3100mhz. Logos lives on a samsung SSD 960 EVO NVMe M.2 500gb.
Edit: more tests
1.146
2.419
1.121
3.466

Running some search speed tests. searched "The" in Everything. took .71 before to search the ESV 61460 results in 23789 verses. Now it takes 2.37 seconds.

Subsequent repeats of the same search were a little slower 2.41-2.9.





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Posts 3942
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 24 2017 9:44 AM

I suppose at my speeds an additional second is tolerable, but still represents a significant slow down. I hope this is something we can opt out of if it makes it into the product down the line. Guessing it has to do with processor architecture?

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Posts 244
LogosEmployee
Ryan Gano (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 24 2017 11:00 AM

The times are going to be different for each user (and probably each run). It's very difficult to say whether it will always be faster because there are a lot of variables.

According to the Microsoft site the expectation should be something along the lines of a normal startup speed on the first launch after a computer restart. On subsequent startups (until the machine is restarted, or enough memory is used that Logos is taken out of memory) load times should be faster than if you hadn't ngen'd.

Essentially, ngening can be thought of as caching the loaded state of the app to the HD. In the non-ngen'd state the OS loads it every time. With ngen it only loads it once. (this is not a technical description and not actually what is happening but it is perhaps a simpler way to think about what's going on)

Posts 3942
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 24 2017 1:03 PM

interesting. you would think on an M.2 with a theoretical max of 3.2gbps that sort of option would make a significant difference.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 24 2017 4:58 PM

abondservant:
OurApp Starting application (7.9 Beta 4, version 7.9.0.0010 x64 on Microsoft Windows NT 10.0.15063.0, .NET 4.0.30319.42000) at 4.333 seconds

I think it is more significant to know how long it takes to load the layout e.g.

   Info StartupUtility Finished startup at 10.14s.

You can also see when it starts to load the layout (when the blank window appears) e.g.

   Info OurApp Showing main window at 2.809 seconds.

They include the time for Starting application (0.268s in my case)

Intel Core i7 5500U (2.4 GHz with boost to 3.0 GHz), 8gb ddr3, 1000 GB hard drive.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 3942
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 25 2017 11:28 AM

Dave Hooton:

abondservant:
OurApp Starting application (7.9 Beta 4, version 7.9.0.0010 x64 on Microsoft Windows NT 10.0.15063.0, .NET 4.0.30319.42000) at 4.333 seconds

I think it is more significant to know how long it takes to load the layout e.g.

   Info StartupUtility Finished startup at 10.14s.

You can also see when it starts to load the layout (when the blank window appears) e.g.

   Info OurApp Showing main window at 2.809 seconds.

They include the time for Starting application (0.268s in my case)

Intel Core i7 5500U (2.4 GHz with boost to 3.0 GHz), 8gb ddr3, 1000 GB hard drive.



Finished Startup: 30.39, 19.18, 18.04, 19.27
Main Window: 21.9, 12.751, 11.9, 12.648

Ran /unngen

Finished Startup: 29.81, 23.71, 23.65, 24.22
Main Window: 19.337, 15.3, 15.6, 15.9

So it looks like it is consistently faster with ngen.

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Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 26 2017 5:29 AM

abondservant:
Finished Startup: 30.39, 19.18, 18.04, 19.27
Main Window: 21.9, 12.751, 11.9, 12.648

Ran /unngen

Finished Startup: 29.81, 23.71, 23.65, 24.22
Main Window: 19.337, 15.3, 15.6, 15.9

Your time to Main Window is interesting as thereafter it takes about the same time as mine to load the layout (c. 9s).

What is happening prior to Main Window?

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 3942
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 26 2017 5:33 AM

050870.Logos.log

Beware the fowl language. same log from my other post.

Maybe my computer doesn't like processing the F word.

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Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 27 2017 4:04 AM

Comparing log events before Main Window I found the reasons for the difference (12.7s vs 3.2s for me).

  • Creating library catalog.  0.3s  vs 2.0s ---> + 1.7s
  • Creating New Sync Manager  0.2s vs 0.9s  ---> + 0.7s
  • Creating Resource Lists  0.34s vs 2.18s   ----> + 1.8s
  • Startup step: StartPostSetFactoryServicesWork 0.6s  v 3.6s  ---> + 3.0s
  • Startup step: StartFirstSync  0.0s vs 2.3s    ----> + 2.3s    because your Starting layout is Most recent - Any

Total difference = + 9.5s

Faithlife can explain the items I highlighted, but:

  • using Most recent - Local will save time by postponing First Sync until after your layout has loaded
  • how many resources do you have?

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 3942
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 27 2017 9:57 AM

16000 or so. I can give a more precise figure if need be. but thats in the ballpark.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 27 2017 8:33 PM

I have 1810 in Library, so that may account for the Library Catalog and Resource List differences. But I'd like some feedback/explanation from Faithlife.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 3942
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 28 2017 7:13 AM

running this on my much slower laptop. will post results soon.

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Posts 3942
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 28 2017 7:25 AM

abondservant:

AMD Ryzen 1800+ (well 1700 overclocked to the speed of an 1800), 16gb ddr4 running at 3100mhz. Logos lives on a samsung SSD 960 EVO NVMe M.2 500gb.<br><br>

Finished Startup: 30.39, 19.18, 18.04, 19.27
Main Window: 21.9, 12.751, 11.9, 12.648

Ran /unngen

Finished Startup: 29.81, 23.71, 23.65, 24.22
Main Window: 19.337, 15.3, 15.6, 15.9

Laptop: AMD A10-7300 Radeon R6 6gb ddr3 64 bit 256gb ssd
Finished Startup (old version) 31.58
Finished Startup (Beta)         29.15
Finished Startup (ngen)         24.10

Main Window (old)                32.426
Main Window (beta)              15.406
Main Window (ngen)             15.523


5584.Logos - old.log
0218.Logos - beta.log
0218.Logos.log

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 28 2017 7:26 AM

my desktop hardware should make more of an impact than that?

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 28 2017 6:18 PM

Is there a benchmark they prefer to show the speed difference?

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 28 2017 9:03 PM

abondservant:

my desktop hardware should make more of an impact than that?

You would think so. Was the layout the same?

BTW, ignore the (old) timing because you waited 16s to respond to the Startup window before the blank window was loaded (main window followed completion of startup!).

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 25652
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 28 2017 9:12 PM

abondservant:
Is there a benchmark they prefer to show the speed difference?

Faithlife provide the log timings because loading is the area of improvement.

You should run your own benchmarks to determine the differences between laptop and desktop (CPU/HDD/Graphics and application benchmarks).

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 3942
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 28 2017 9:54 PM

I use them all the time, I have an idea of the speed difference, but without putting your hands on the machine its hard to know... So I thought perhaps it would help to illustrate that point. That the speed is significantly different... Is there a benchmark software they prefer? I forget what I used to use all the time, but it makes a composite score overall. I'll have to google it if they don't have a preference.

EDIT: A google search turned up novabench. Will have to run this on my laptop tomorrow... BUT the desktop came back as follows:

https://novabench.com/view/1319319

~1400

Should be a bit higher. the processor should be around 1400 all on its own. I'll have to look into that tomorrow.

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